Rafale for Indian Navy ??

[sathya]

Can Indian navy pull all the correct strings to convince Indian air force and ministry of defence to stick with Rafale for the air-forces requirement of 126 aircraft under MMRCA .

Well as per my source , Naval pilots of Indian navy had checked out Rafale M , when French had brought their aircraft carrier to Indian shores few months before MMRCA contestant were downlisted to Eurofighter and Rafale , Navy which wants to have small pie of MMRCA aircraft , is interested in inducting which ever aircraft wins the MMRCA Competition .

But sources think that Rafale is Ready carrier aircraft and Eurofighter will have to be built for that purpose which might require additional funds coming from Navy , point note worthy is that Navy to maintain familarity with IAF fleets has been purchasing aircraft's which are already in IAF fleet (Ex Mig-29 / Hawks / Tejas ) and wants to maintain that trend in future.

Navy has already send RFI for purchase of Naval variant to almost all party which were part of MMRCA . Indian navy which will be operating 3 aircraft carrier by the turn of this decade wants to maintain adequate fighter aircraft for all 3 aircraft carrier and also to protect its shore based facilities .

Does Navy's recommendation or advice will be taken into final consideration when the winner will be announced his month ? , well that's is to be seen , but excitement seen over Rafale by senior Naval sources , well its time for a full stop.

 

[nrj]

Navy which wants to have small pie of MMRCA aircraft , is interested in inducting which ever aircraft wins the MMRCA Competition .

Arrah! Both contracts are different till this moment.

There will be provision to extend the contract with said shortlisted companies which may end up equipping IN with respective NMRCA variants & their corresponding country also helping in designing catapult systems.

 

[SPIEZ]

Can Indian navy pull all the correct strings to convince Indian air force and ministry of defence to stick with Rafale for the air-forces requirement of 126 aircraft under MMRCA .

Well as per my source , Naval pilots of Indian navy had checked out Rafale M , when French had brought their aircraft carrier to Indian shores few months before MMRCA contestant were downlisted to Eurofighter and Rafale , Navy which wants to have small pie of MMRCA aircraft , is interested in inducting which ever aircraft wins the MMRCA Competition .

But sources think that Rafale is Ready carrier aircraft and Eurofighter will have to be built for that purpose which might require additional funds coming from Navy , point note worthy is that Navy to maintain familarity with IAF fleets has been purchasing aircraft's which are already in IAF fleet (Ex Mig-29 / Hawks / Tejas ) and wants to maintain that trend in future.

Navy has already send RFI for purchase of Naval variant to almost all party which were part of MMRCA . Indian navy which will be operating 3 aircraft carrier by the turn of this decade wants to maintain adequate fighter aircraft for all 3 aircraft carrier and also to protect its shore based facilities .

Does Navy's recommendation or advice will be taken into final consideration when the winner will be announced his month ? , well that's is to be seen , but excitement seen over Rafale by senior Naval sources , well its time for a full stop.

I was also wondering along the same lines.
Should the MODs also have a look at the Navy for deciding about MMRCA. BTW the naval MiG-29K's have developed a problem and the orders have been put on a hold, so is it a good time to have a look at the naval MRCA or similar aircraft ?

 

[Zebra]

( Originally Posted by sathya ,
Navy which wants to have small pie of MMRCA aircraft . )

******
I think --- this is not going to happen .

bcz , IAF desperatly needs more A/C it self , and that also ASAP .

btw , Rafale M as NMRCA . :thumb:

 

[ace009]

I am wondering whether IN ready to use 3 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K, N-LCA and M-Rafale.

 

[nrj]

I am wondering whether IN ready to use 3 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K, N-LCA and M-Rafale.

Absolutely. Each of them are crucial for IN.

Mig29K is supposed to be dark horse for IAC-1/Gorky & a major pilot training platform.

NLCA is important because its first indigenous effort to develop naval fighter so IN's field inputs are all-important for NAL/HAL.

NMRCA are essential to taste western technology vis a vis electronics & maritime performance characteristics. It'll rapidly push IN into 4+ gen category.


And you forgot to add every fanboy's entry for 5th gen fighter in IN

 

[ace009]

As I have posted in another thread ...

Here's my two cents ...

IN have realized that Mig-29Ks are fine for STOBAR carriers - which means Gorshky and IAC-1 will have Mig-29Ks. N-LCA is still iffy, but IN would like to get some as it would give them more operational freedom and an easy source for resupply and maintenance. Anyway they know that N-LCA would only be available for IAC-1 and that too in small numbers (maybe one squadron) - and it will be STOBAR for now.

For CATOBAR carriers (if the rumor are true, then) IAC-2 or IAC-3 they would like to have a proven CATOBAR-ready fighter - by the timeline of 2018 - which can be M-Rafale only, since F-35Cs are nowhere ready to deliver to India by then. In which case, IAC-2 and/or IAC-3 will get m-Rafale for sure.

By the time IAC-4 or IAC-5 come into play, the Mig-29Ks (and any N-LCA, STOBAR) will be considered obsolete in technology, and India will have a 5th gen naval fighter, either it's own N-AMCA or the F-35C.

So at any point, IN will have at least 2 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K and N-LCA mk1 and later maybe even 3, Mig-29K, N-LCA mk1 and m-Rafale and furhter on, N-LCA mk2, M-Rafale and F-35C/ N-AMCA. Question is, are they ready for that many varieties?

By the way, there is NO plan of developing ANY naval variant of the PAK-FA, now or in the future.

 

[plugwater]

I am wondering whether IN ready to use 3 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K, N-LCA and M-Rafale.

There is also a EW version of LCA under development.

 

[SPIEZ]

As I have posted in another thread ...

Here's my two cents ...

IN have realized that Mig-29Ks are fine for STOBAR carriers - which means Gorshky and IAC-1 will have Mig-29Ks. N-LCA is still iffy, but IN would like to get some as it would give them more operational freedom and an easy source for resupply and maintenance. Anyway they know that N-LCA would only be available for IAC-1 and that too in small numbers (maybe one squadron) - and it will be STOBAR for now.

For CATOBAR carriers (if the rumor are true, then) IAC-2 or IAC-3 they would like to have a proven CATOBAR-ready fighter - by the timeline of 2018 - which can be M-Rafale only, since F-35Cs are nowhere ready to deliver to India by then. In which case, IAC-2 and/or IAC-3 will get m-Rafale for sure.

By the time IAC-4 or IAC-5 come into play, the Mig-29Ks (and any N-LCA, STOBAR) will be considered obsolete in technology, and India will have a 5th gen naval fighter, either it's own N-AMCA or the F-35C.

So at any point, IN will have at least 2 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K and N-LCA mk1 and later maybe even 3, Mig-29K, N-LCA mk1 and m-Rafale and furhter on, N-LCA mk2, M-Rafale and F-35C/ N-AMCA. Question is, are they ready for that many varieties?

By the way, there is NO plan of developing ANY naval variant of the PAK-FA, now or in the future.

Dude, nice post!!Are you sure IN is planning on having % aircraft carriers????

Also I feel that rushing in for so many MiG-29K is a big mistake, they should/could have waited for MMRCA to be inducted.
Going in for a separate NMRCA isn't all that a good idea, especially because for a small number of N-air crafts, availability of spare parts and maintenance becomes harder.

 

[nrj]

Dude, nice post!!Are you sure IN is planning on having % aircraft carriers????

Also I feel that rushing in for so many MiG-29K is a big mistake, they should/could have waited for MMRCA to be inducted.
Going in for a separate NMRCA isn't all that a good idea, especially because for a small number of N-air crafts, availability of spare parts and maintenance becomes harder.

Are you trying to imply that IN should've waited for NMRCAs to start training their pilots, learn flight characteristics on shore based STOBAR & equip Gorky/IAC-1 ?

 

[SPIEZ]

Are you trying to imply that IN should've waited for NMRCAs to start training their pilots, learn flight characteristics on shore based STOBAR & equip Gorky/IAC-1 ?

GORKYs OK! But 45 MiG 29Ks for what ?(Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). the first order of a total of 16 would have sufficed.

IN is planning on having 3 ACs right. Wouldn't it be better if at least 2 of the indigenous ACs had a NMRCA??

 

[Adux]

Now that we have 2 Fighter types, Medium-Low , MiG-29K/NLCA, what is the use of bringing in another of the medium category, or even a third type of 4th Generation fighter, when it doesnt give you any significant advantage at all. I am no fan of the MiG-29K, but since we have bought, i think it is prudent for us to standardize on it. If we are going for a third type, it has to be a 5th Generation fighter. 100 MiG-29K's, 50 NLCA's and 50 JSF, maybe 50, 50, 100 JSF

 

[nrj]

GORKYs OK! But 45 MiG 29Ks for what ?(Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). the first order of a total of 16 would have sufficed.

IN is planning on having 3 ACs right. Wouldn't it be better if at least 2 of the indigenous ACs had a NMRCA??

Ok so 16 will suffice for Gorky, IAC-1, training purpose, shore based inventory ?

When NMRCAs are arriving?

You'll get your western fighters on IAC-2 onwards.

 

[SPIEZ]

Ok so 16 will suffice for Gorky, IAC-1, training purpose, shore based inventory ?

When NMRCAs are arriving?

You'll get your western fighters on IAC-2 onwards.

Dude, IN is planning only 3 right (Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia{pt. 170}) ?
If we are using the 1 aircraft on 2 ships why should we invest in another completely different air craft on the 3rd ship???

IMHO, we did have to buy the MiG 29K's cause we can't buy an AC without any A's.

 

[Adux]

Ok so 16 will suffice for Gorky, IAC-1, training purpose, shore based inventory ?

When NMRCAs are arriving?

You'll get your western fighters on IAC-2 onwards.

You are looking at all wrong. A Max of 24 Jets and 11 Heli's can be accomdated on the Gorky, IAC-1 will have the same maximum capacity. That is the reason behind 48 MiG-29K's. NLCA's addition into the mix will give enough fighters for gorky,iac-1 and iac-2. So you can expect 48 MiGs and 48-50 NLCA's for training, reserves and active duty.

 

[nrj]

Dude, IN is planning only 3 right (Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) ?

IN plans to operate 5 Air Defence Ships on strategic length irrespective of type of aircrafts.

If we are using the 1 aircraft on 2 ships why should we invest in another completely different air craft on the 3rd ship???

We are using 2 aircrafts on 2 ships i.e Mig29k/LCA. Why should we invest for third? Better electronics, heavy payload, larger combat radius, force multiplication.

IMHO, we did have to buy the MiG 29K's cause we can't buy an AC without any A's.

You are wrong & right. Wrong because there was no such condition. In fact mig29k was developed only on IN's request in russia.

Right because, there was no other aircraft which we could've operated on Gorky's STOBAR. su33 production line was closed.

Same is not the case with IAC-1. We designed & built it keeping in my primary hooked fighter as mig29k.

49 mig29k in IN are totally justified.

--

You are looking at all wrong. A Max of 24 Jets and 11 Heli's can be accomdated on the Gorky, IAC-1 will have the same maximum capacity. That is the reason behind 48 MiG-29K's. NLCA's addition into the mix will give enough fighters for gorky,iac-1 and iac-2. So you can expect 48 MiGs and 48-50 NLCA's for training, reserves and active duty.

Those were rhetoric questions in my other post.

 

[Adux]

Ok so 16 will suffice for Gorky, IAC-1, training purpose, shore based inventory ?

When NMRCAs are arriving?

You'll get your western fighters on IAC-2 onwards.

You are looking at all wrong. A Max of 24 Jets and 11 Heli's can be accomdated on the Gorky, IAC-1 will have the same maximum capacity. That is the reason behind 48 MiG-29K's. NLCA's addition into the mix will give enough fighters for gorky,iac-1 and iac-2. So you can expect 48 MiGs and 48-50 NLCA's for training, reserves and active duty. But according to IN plan, they need 200 Fighters by 2022, I think the more prudent decision especially looking at the timelines of induction and IN's capacity to absorb and raise squadrons, the 3rd type should start coming in around at 2016-17, then it will surely be a 5th Gen, this is all assuming IN will go for NLCA

 

[Adux]

]We are using 2 aircrafts on 2 ships i.e Mig29k/LCA. Why should we invest for third? Better electronics, heavy payload, larger combat radius, force multiplication.

Better electronics can be jigged on any aircraft including MiGs and NLCA, none of the MMRCA's will offer larger combat radius than the MiG's. Force mulitiplicatoin? If we are going for a 3rd type either it has to be a heavy aircraft like the Su-33 or a 5th Gen, otherwise it doesnt make any sense.

You are wrong & right. Wrong because there was no such condition. In fact mig29k was developed only on IN's request in russia.

Actually the condition of Gorky deal was, the Hull is free but the refit and aircomponent should be sourced from the Russians. It was their very explicit conditions, 800 million for refit and 700 odd for the MiG's.

Right because, there was no other aircraft which we could've operated on Gorky's STOBAR. su33 production line was closed

.

So was MiG29K's, even they were closed, the only reason we bought them, because we were forced too by the Russians. There were other options.

Same is not the case with IAC-1. We designed & built it keeping in my primary hooked fighter as mig29k.

We did that, since it made economic sense after we were forced too by the Russians, we couldnt just have 16 types of an aircraft.

49 mig29k in IN are totally justified.

It is now

--



Those were rhetoric questions in my other post.[/QUOTE]

 

[nrj]

Better electronics can be jigged on any aircraft including MiGs and NLCA, none of the MMRCA's will offer larger combat radius than the MiG's. Force mulitiplicatoin? If we are going for a 3rd type either it has to be a heavy aircraft like the Su-33 or a 5th Gen, otherwise it doesnt make any sense.

I read your point that 3rd fighter has to be 5th gen.

We'll come to know about it only when IN goes ahead with RFP in accordance with RFI it issued for NMRCA or it withdraws it all-together & calls for 5th gen fighters.

However the only 5th gen fighter can be available before 2020 is JSF. And F35 for IN has been discussed till death already.

 

[SPIEZ]

IN plans to operate 5 Air Defence Ships on strategic length irrespective of type of aircrafts.



We are using 2 aircrafts on 2 ships i.e Mig29k/LCA. Why should we invest for third? Better electronics, heavy payload, larger combat radius, force multiplication.



You are wrong & right. Wrong because there was no such condition. In fact mig29k was developed only on IN's request in russia.

Right because, there was no other aircraft which we could've operated on Gorky's STOBAR. su33 production line was closed.

Same is not the case with IAC-1. We designed & built it keeping in my primary hooked fighter as mig29k.

49 mig29k in IN are totally justified.

I m certainly confused with the numbers, many reports point to 3 ACs(India's Future Aircraft Carrier Force and the Need for Strategic Flexibility | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses). What would we do with 5, it's not like we are America!

Also in case of either 3/5, I agree we could go with the 45 MiG 29K(again the no are a doubt:wiki).
But why LCA? Don't get me wrong, I too want to see Tejas in the air someday, but the land variant is in itself getting further delayed.

Instead of that I feel we could go with the naval variant of the MMRCA. No need for another contract for that, is what I feel.