Rafale Finally Coming Under Make In India

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by WolfPack86, May 17, 2017.

  1. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    India negotiating additionally 50 more Rafales under second contract. During 1990 India negotiated SU 30 MKI under similarly contract later order huge number of SU 30 MKI and assemble SU 30 MKI in India. In coming years India will order large number of Rafales under Make in India. If Indian Navy order Rafale M it will save money and logistics. I personally think India should order 200 Rafales for air force and 57 Rafales for navy. Rafale very capable fighter and best in class. In Indian Navy fighter jet contest only disadvantage for Rafales is cost and additional cost like folded wings etc. Rafale is an Omni role fighter and has a wide range of weapons and Meteor missile. Rafale will be deployed Pakistan and China border. Reliance already building factory for manufacturing Rafales in India. Indian version Rafale is more capable than French Air Force Version. Scalp cruise missile is very capable and it will be useful in destroying enemy fortified target.

    Rafale is currently best fourth generation fighter in the world. There is fifth generation version of Rafale called F 4. Rafale has advanced radar and engines. There is rumor going on that Rafale will be fitted with Kaveri engine in future. Rafale M can fly both INS Vikramditya and INS Vikrant after slight modifications. Rafale is the best bet that India has. France most trusted Indian partner. So finally Rafale is the best for India.

    Note:

    Above statements written by me is my own and not copied or posted from any other websites or articles.
     
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  3. Innocent

    Innocent Regular Member

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    I dont see this happening, not by a long shot.
     
  4. NKVD

    NKVD New Member

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    Yes they are under 57 Naval fighters contracts
     
  5. Flame Thrower

    Flame Thrower Regular Member

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    @WolfPack86 I think there are fatal flaws in your assumption.

    Comparing Rafale acquisition with Flanker is wrong. During 1990s, flanker was the only plane in the list of IAF. But now, IAF has LCAs coming, MK2 could result in 200 new single engine fighter purchases, discussion is going on Pakfa, Work is going on AMCA and Aura. Inshort Rafale purchase wont be similar to Su 30mki as it would result in cost cutting for the above projects.

    Navy gave RFI for fighters, nothing confirmed till date. Forget confirming, neither Boeing nor Dasault officially confirmed that they want to participate in Navys tender. If Rafale was half as good as what you've said about its operational capabilites from Vikrant & Vikramaditya(STOBAR), then Rafale would have participated by now.

    But there are lot of posts from you saying how AH is a better option, at the same time you are also supporting its competitor Rafale.

    Now coming to Rafale on Kaveri. Difference in dia of M 88 and Kaveri over 200mm. I'd rather wait for Dasault to say on Kaveri and Rafale integration.

    Coming to weapons, sure Meteor has upper hand on Aastra or R 77-1(I doubt it ).
    Now coming to scalp and Brahmos, I'd pick brahmos on any day.

    French might have a different definition for stealth. Having electronic stealth is good, but not as good as stealth shaping.

    Unless Rafale to be redesigned like Pakfa from flanker it wont be a stealth A/c.

    Rafale is definitely not the best bet India has against J 20 or J 31.

    Sure France is a reliable partner, but I really don't believe that our rafales are going to be better than French ones.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  6. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is a really funny article from you, Keep it up

    India at present is NOT DISCUSSING ANYTHING YET, The only discussion on is for PAKFA/FGFA.
    We dont even have a single Rafale in Indian colours except the mode.3l so on what basis are they going to order the next lot?

    Indian Navy has sent RFI for carrier based planes, but they want is a plane which is flying (not a paper plane) and operational and should be with folded wings, which unfortunately Rafale M does not have and MiG-29K and F/A-18 Hornet have. Now when Rafale M would be developed with folding wings thats another matter, surely not going to happen in weeks. Further, why would India pay for folding wings? Its not like we are waiting for Rafale, Thus the common sense would be, If there is Rafale M with folding wings flying and operational then the Indian navy would be interested. But if it does not have folding wings, then seems difficult. as space on aircraft carrier is premium !!

    Rafale can be deployed only on Pakistani border, Against Chinese Su-35 I doubt that IAF would field them against the Su-30 MKK Su-35 and its derivatives, Simply because Su-35 is much better than Rafale in terms of WVR combat .. Su-30 MKI did beat both Rafale and Eurofighter in two separate exercises.

    Now the number what you say 200 planes is fantastic,, do let me know who pays for these planes? What is the point in going for a 4th Gen has been when 5th Gen plane is available? Does not make sense at all. Further we have our own Brahmos which can do much better than SCALP Saves us a lot of money. Would your point be that We should buy Rafale because it can fire SCALP and Brahmos is way better and economical to buy and use? Really stupid logic.
    Few more things, Rafale can be heavily loaded, but Rafale has to land with max 6.5 tons load,

    Reliance has a contract with Dassault for producing parts for it, and maybe assemble planes in future, Does not mean we should give an order to Reliance just because they have a factory !! Stupid logic.

    F4 version at best is 4.5++ gen plane, it wont be 5th Gen plane. By the way have you noticed that Dassault tries to use all BS terms trying to sell their wares? Omni role etc, Most planes now are Omni role, and based on how they are armed, As per the intelligence reports. Let us say Rafale is on strike mission armed with say SCALP, Drop tanks and Meteor missiles. and it sees an Enemy patrol boat and then an enemy tank, do tell me by your knowledge what weapon is this Rafale going to fire at it? Surely not MICA or Meteor. SCALP???
    So most MRCA planes as the abbreviation is are Multi role, and its not that they are just limited to A2G or A2Sh or A2A weapons, How they are armed is based on pre mission intelligence. Thus a plane that is armed for A2G mission will not be armed with Anti shipping missiles because that would not be part of the planned mission, but since now there is a threat, what does the pilot do? Use SCALP? Or crash the plane headon?
    Su-30 MKI armed with say Brahmos in centreline, KH-35 on two pylons, and rest by A2A missiles would it not be Multi role or swing role? How the plane is armed is based on intelligence reports, And intelligence reports are not credible then you get armed with weapons which may not be used for example Rafale armed with bunker buster SCALP and the terrorist have postponed the meeting till further notice, so what do you do?

    France is not the most trusted indian partner, but country which needs more business with India at any cost. Earlier France had some sort of hold in India thanks to Congress connections, and now they are really being worked hard for any deal. Like I said, if its friends, you dont negotiate with them toughly, and if you are negotiating then its just business, not friends.

    About the F4, it is still being developed and expected to start production in 2025 by this time 5th Gen PAKFA will be operational along with GaN modules and its excellent avionics suite, which would render planes like Rafale even the F4 development as cannon fodder.

    Also a point to remember, Dassault is not developing F4 standard because France wants it, but with planes like PAKFA Rafale would not have chance that of snowball in hell.. There is big chunk of market which is taken by F-35, and then there is chunk that will be taken by PAKFA. the other countries that cannot get planes like F-35 or PAKFA (Middle eastern countries) and for such countries there are planes like Rafale and Eurofighters, good planes 4.5th Gen planes, reliable and not so cheap. And of course capable. IF they want something cheaper than there is Gripen. If countries want Cheaper than that they go for MiG-35 So Rafale is not competing with F-35 or PAKFA, it is competing with Eurofighter, Gripen and MiG-35

    Let Dassault come with production version of F4 then we can talk about it, Guess that would be 2025 !!

    So, best is for India to go for 150+ LCA Mk1A and LCA Mk2 (to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 to protect important cities and industrial zones), 150 PAKFA (to be used for penetrating enemy air space and to take down enemy defences and start air dominance, upgrade Su-30 MKI to super Sukhoi status which will ensure Air dominance, And MiG-29 Rafale and other planes to carry out strike and CAPS to ensure that nothing gets in the air


     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  7. Ramdasrathsuryavanshi

    Ramdasrathsuryavanshi Regular Member

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    We should still wait for our own systems tomaterialize, Rafale is a very expensive aircraft, taking everything into consideration. We should only wait for MK-2 as we can update the aircraft anytime and change anything we want in case of combat (during the Kargil war, Mirages had to wait for changes after negotiations before or during the bombing of high bunkers). Self reliance and shaping the battlefield to our standards is the key to win any war.
     
  8. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    This goes back to the initial agreement in Paris, IAF Command wanted 76 Rafale. Now it will be completed. The naval contract only has two options and to avoid redundancy Rafale is the only choice.
     
  9. Ramdasrathsuryavanshi

    Ramdasrathsuryavanshi Regular Member

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    I believe the post by Smestarz about Rafale -M taking up on the folding wings design. Its going to take too long, we have 4 years (IAC-1)for all systems and personel to comply with training. MIG 29K is my personal choice.
     
  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Not an option for CATOBAR operations and these will be later transferred when it is introduced.
     
  11. Ramdasrathsuryavanshi

    Ramdasrathsuryavanshi Regular Member

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    Please understand the STOBAR carriers need a familiar aircraft. CATOBAR carriers are comming after 10 years from STOBAR carrier series completion (If we go in for another IAC - 1 STOBAR, the wait might be longer or if made in tandem, shorter). Taking everything into consideration, 10 - 15 years from now Tejas and first series of AMCA will be better for the Navy.
     
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  12. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Indian Navy’s Multi role carrier-borne fighters (MRCBF) tender tailored made for Dassault Rafale: Dassault Boss Published May 9, 2017 SOURCE: VINAYAK SHETTY / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

    Last day to respond and submit Request for Information (RFI) on Indian Navy’s Multi-role carrier-borne fighters (MRCBF) tender might have passed quietly (24-May-2017) but Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier seems to have fired the first salvo while speaking to local media some time back on the high prospect of Dassault Rafale. Trappier has reportedly has said that Indian Navy knows exactly what it wants and it wants Dassault Rafale and MRCBF RFI issued by Indian Navy to multiple foreign vendors to Supply 57 carrier-borne fighter jets to equip its aircraft carriers with is perfectly tailored made for Dassault Rafale. Under MRCBF Tender, Indian Navy intends to procure 57 Day and night capable, all-weather multi-role deck based combat aircraft which can be used for Air Defence., Air to surface operations, buddy refuelling, reconnaissance, EW missions etc from Indian Navy aircraft carriers. US aerospace giant Boeing also has submitted its proposal to compete for the naval programme with its F-18 Super Hornet and SAAB reportedly has sent proposals for its Sea Gripen Concept fighter jet, while another US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin didn’t participate in the tender for unknown reasons even though it had F-35B and F-35C Naval Carrier-borne 5th Generation fighter jets in the offering. Early last year, a team from France had given a detailed presentation to senior navy officers on various aspects of the naval version and the benefits it would offer with two arms of defence forces using Rafale fighter jets. Trapper previously had said that ” It makes sense to have the same jet used by Indian Air Force also for Indian Navy ” and had cited an example of Indian Navy procuring Naval Carrier-borne Mig-29K based on an extensive experience gained by IAF operating Mig-29A fighter jets in its fleet.

    idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/indian-navys-multi-...lored-made-for-dassault-rafale-dassault-boss/ .
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/mu...updates-discussions.57779/page-11#post-561059
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    Now there are lot of things perhaps you need to add
    Whatever was agreed was 36 and with options of 18. Now as you know that options choice are usually executed after the delivery of the first few units. Rarely its executed before the delivery, Please do check the numbers its 36 and options of 18.

    Now if you go to the IAF testing etc, IAF said that F/A-18 had the best avionics package of the lot. And this is on record. Now if you do look at the options etc,

    1. What Indian navy wants is twin engine plane with folding wings, which unfortunately Rafale M is not
    2. Rafale M is as similar to Rafale B as Su-34 is to Su 30 MKI Thus Rafale M has commonality of parts and not identital. F/A-18 on other hand be it naval or air force version, all are same
    3. Now Rafale total produced has not passed 200, where as F/A-18 has well passed 500 units in 2011 and has two distinct users US Navy and Royal Australian Navy. India has been eyeing EF-18G for quite some time. Thus there is better support, and India has been working with Boeing for P-8I, C-17 and AH-64 which india is using and still interested in more,

    thus, Rafale is not really an option, it does not qualify the requirement of folding wings.

     
  14. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Billions of dollars being spent on fancy toys, but the basic requirements are zilch. No bullet proof jackets, no helmets, no modern rifles, no nothing! There's a frikkin war going on at the LoC and stone pelting by the Hurriyat in the Valley, but no mention of any suitable equipment to counter it. Just a lot of hot air.

    What are our priorities? Have we got them all mixed up? Rafales are fine but there probably will never be an all out war within the next 50 years at least when we would be using them. So how about giving some priority to basic equipment we need now?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  15. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    The naval RFI includes CATOBAR, it was hand written for the Rafale. The MiG-29K doesn't meet half of its requirements.
     
  16. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    MiG-299K is a good plane, unfortunately not respected much by Indian forces. MiG-29K are always standing on the tarmac in the open at Goa air base. The plane is wonderful to fly and Accident record is much better than Rafale M. I would go for more powerful engine for MiG-299K and strengthen the airframe to make it more capable, and of course AESA. As per me if Navy wants to go for another plane then it would be F/A-18 because it offers real capabilities and would be value for money. MiG-29K would be way cheaper but I guess if it comes with an AESA and improved engine then should be a better option as that plane already has proven itself. Further we have 100+ MiG-29 with IAF and recently we signed contract with Russia for spare management and hence MiG-29 should have better availability

     
  17. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    Who said, MiG-29K is not CATOBAR compliant? Rather the Russian are very sure they can get it.
    Rafale does not meet the requirement of folding wings. Do you know that with single vendor case the RFI would issued again !!!

     
  18. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    It isn't a requirement, it only asked what were the external dimensions of the aircraft.
     
  19. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    It is a requirement so that more planes can be carried Has been for each plane navy has taken,
     
  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    There is no folding wing requirement as I just said. If it is it could be Auto CAD into the design within 10 minutes.
     
  21. Ramdasrathsuryavanshi

    Ramdasrathsuryavanshi Regular Member

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    Its Mr. Trappier who is pushing the MIG 29K further up the choice ladder. MIG have proven time and again to be sturdier and when point proving driven, better then Rafale. IMHO, we dont need a supercruise practice aicraft as thought; as we have PAK-FA and AMCA coming soon, both are fifth generation. Please dont mess up the Indo - Russian relationship for prestige.
     

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