Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian

jouni

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

how many planes finland had then?btw i am impressed the way u guys handled your 'little' air force but dont think you ever gonna need it ,keep posting finland air force score card.
Propably we will not need it, you are right. Of course we are smaller than India population wise, but that is not the only indicator.
 

Compersion

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

We are getting a long term relationship with France. It can expand into other areas also like high speed rail and nuclear if this deal is executed well.
 

sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

I heard that the Sukhoi-30 has more than 90% localization, but you might be right.

The Sukhoi-30 is certainly better than the Rafale, but the Rafale wasn't chosen in place of Sukhoi-30. It was chosen in place of MiG-35. There is a thread on this issue, and there are arguments both for and against it. Maybe you have seen it. I believe Rafale has its place and we should acquire it. Folks have argued in favour of our Tejas (Mark I and II). I just could not agree with this twin-engine vs single-engine comparison.
No we should not.

LCA Tejas still needs a lot of investment. We forget that we still do not have a local engine. Most people also forget that we need to invest heavily in producing avionics, radars, air to air missiles and air to ground weapons to make LCA Tejas a real success.

The factories that exist today are inadequate technologically and management-wise. The bulk of the defence production base is geared towards low-to-medium tech manufacturing. Introducing high-tech weapons needs a different kind of ecosystem than is present today.

India is a country with limited resources. It is very important to use the money wisely.

India just bought two squadrons of Mig-29K. If replacing Mig-29 was so important, it should have bought Rafale-M. Maybe IN thought that Mig-29K is adequate for its needs. If that is the case, then Mig-35 cannot be inadequate for IAF as both face similar threats.

India needs a lot more than fighters in the air. India needs to upgrade its fixed as well as mobile radars. India needs a lot more surveillance means including space based sensors.

Rafale alone cannot make an impact as IAF is suggesting.
 

sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

We are getting a long term relationship with France. It can expand into other areas also like high speed rail and nuclear if this deal is executed well.
We often make this mistake of merging civilian and military spheres.

I doubt our relationship with France hinges on Rafale alone.

And if that was the case, then there was no need of a tender. GOI should have bought Rafale through a government-to-government deal.

Calling a tender says it clearly that Rafale was considered due to a commercial proposition, not due to some strategic relationship.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

@sgarg, you have made a lot of valid points, and thank you for taking time to write such an elaborate post.

I am still of the opinion that India should acquire the Rafale until Tejas is fully matured, with the things you have mentioned. I cannot speculate on when Kaveri will be ready, whether with K9 or K10 core. In such circumstances, what do we do? And even if we were to assume, hypothetically, that single engined Tejas is ready, it cannot be a match for twin-engined Rafale. It is a big debate, and we have discussed this over several times in other threads.

So, save for that disagreement, on whether we should acquire the Rafale, or should not, (and this is because it is unclear what your reasons are for not acquiring the Rafale) I agree with the rest of your post.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Propably we will not need it, you are right. Of course we are smaller than India population wise, but that is not the only indicator.
The best defence for Finland and Sweden is "neutrality".

I can assure you that if nukes start flying, your air force won't save you.

You sound like the saying "Penny wise pound foolish".
 

sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

@sgarg, you have made a lot of valid points, and thank you for taking time to write such an elaborate post.

I am still of the opinion that India should acquire the Rafale until Tejas is fully matured, with the things you have mentioned. I cannot speculate on when Kaveri will be ready, whether with K9 or K10 core. In such circumstances, what do we do? And even if we were to assume, hypothetically, that single engined Tejas is ready, it cannot be a match for twin-engined Rafale. It is a big debate, and we have discussed this over several times in other threads.

So, save for that disagreement, on whether we should acquire the Rafale, or should not, (and this is because it is unclear what your reasons are for not acquiring the Rafale) I agree with the rest of your post.
LCA Tejas will mature much faster if it is placed in the hands of IAF. This is not only mine but the opinion of my friends in IAF.

HAL has been sub-optimal for both design support and production of LCA Tejas. I fully agree with GOI attempt to find an option in private sector. HAL is one of the reasons why LCA Tejas is late.

Honestly I would support Rafale if it is purely imported like Mirage-2000 and they stick to the price. I do not care about TOT. I feel that HAL building Rafale is a BAD idea. Introduction of HAL in this deal has been the biggest mistake made by MOD under Antony.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

The Russian ambassador is correct in his assessment, I would say. If Rafale faces Chinese Su-30MKM fighters over Tibet, the Rafale won't last.

However even if a LCA Tejas faces Su-30MKM over Indian airspace, it has a chance.

Air battle has several components. There will be ground based sensors and other aircraft giving information.

My singular advice is to focus on mass production of LCA Tejas, and my opinion is based on opinion of some within IAF.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

The Russian ambassador is correct in his assessment, I would say. If Rafale faces Chinese Su-30MKM fighters over Tibet, the Rafale won't last.

However even if a LCA Tejas faces Su-30MKM over Indian airspace, it has a chance.

Air battle has several components. There will be ground based sensors and other aircraft giving information.

My singular advice is to focus on mass production of LCA Tejas, and my opinion is based on opinion of some within IAF.
MKM is for Malaysia. MKK is for Kitaiski, or China. So, you mean Sukhoi-30MKK.

Ok, keeping the conditions similar.

  • How does LCA fare against Sukhoi-30MKK over Tibet and over Indian airspace?
  • How does Rafale fare against Sukhoi-30MKK over Tibet and over Indian airspace?
  • What can we conclude about LCA and Rafale, overall?

Personally, I don't think LCA is meant to be at the forefront of strike missions inside Tibet.
 

vishwaprasad

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

This Russian seems high on vodka as his MIG-35 was politely rejected by India... Technology that Rafale will bring will be unparalleled in Asia for at least next 2 decades.... Sad that even new Govt is not taking call early
 

Compersion

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

We often make this mistake of merging civilian and military spheres.

I doubt our relationship with France hinges on Rafale alone.

And if that was the case, then there was no need of a tender. GOI should have bought Rafale through a government-to-government deal.

Calling a tender says it clearly that Rafale was considered due to a commercial proposition, not due to some strategic relationship.
The final decision for the deal had huge strategic considerations and i am sure they were placed when the deal was finalized. i personally feel it was the right decision but i am not a expert on the technicals like the other learned members here. i view it to be a long term defense and economic relationship we are entering with France. USD 23 billion + is huge.

I remember reading a article about India Haggling - might be appropriate:

How to Negotiate like an Indian — 7 Rules | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

Rule #1 – The true price of any item is what you pay — There are no suggested retail prices in India. Nothing is labeled, so it pays to talk with several vendors before making a significant purchase.

Rule # 2 – Try for 70% off — Don't accept less than 30%

Rule # 3 – Make them show lots of merchandise — If it is a rug merchant, you want the demo guys sweating profusely before you make your first offer. Get the vendor to "invest" in the transaction — emotion, time and energy.

Rule # 4 – Offer on one item at a time – If you plan to buy a couple things DON'T let on at the outset. Act like you intend to buy only one item, if that much. Get the seller to give you prices on each item; play one item off another to show you are looking for the lower price point.

Rule # 5 – Wait for the pad of paper — Every Indian sales person has a pad of paper and a pencil that they pull out when the bargaining gets a bit more serious. Though they write down the price for an item, this is only the starting point – remember rule #2.

Rule # 6 – Say "TOO HIGH", a lot – Don't even start negotiating until the salesman has scratched through the initial price and lowered it at least twice. I found that simply staring in silence at the pad of paper for a long time would result in the vendor cutting the price.

Rule # 7 – Imply a bundled purchase — OK, now that the price has been cut 25-30%, ask the salesman what deal he would give you if you buy two items. Expect 5% off. Ask for three items; get another 5%. Then add a very expensive 4th item — one which you do not intend to buy. This will excite the vendor and he will do a bunch of calculations which you will be unable to follow. The price will come down for the expensive item as well as for the other items you intend to buy. Lock those prices and drop the expensive item.
The deal with the France will also help set standard on the new joint development policy and also make in india emphasis. that is why the civilian and military spheres will work together because the sellers will not always share more on all defense parameters but can offer more offset in civilian technology as a substitute.

I trust in the Indian negotiators but also trust that both India and France will enter into a rewarding relationship for both.
 

jaci07

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

I think the officials make this decision because russia is always delay supplying their products and sometimes they often want more money after all is dicided.They do it every time whether it is INS vikramadaitya or FGFA.
So the indian officials go for the french option.
 
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jouni

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

The best defence for Finland and Sweden is "neutrality".

I can assure you that if nukes start flying, your air force won't save you.

You sound like the saying "Penny wise pound foolish".
Neutrality means nothing in crisis situation. If there is trouble in Baltic Sea region Finland will be automatically sucked in. Even Finnish government has said that "if Baltic ( Estonia ) states are threatened there is no such possibility that Finland stays neutral. That being said, I do not believe that there is going to be war in the area in the near future. Millions of Russian tourists visit Finland every year. No propaganda machine in the world can convince them that Finland is any kind of threat.
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

MKM is for Malaysia. MKK is for Kitaiski, or China. So, you mean Sukhoi-30MKK.

Ok, keeping the conditions similar.

  • How does LCA fare against Sukhoi-30MKK over Tibet and over Indian airspace?
  • How does Rafale fare against Sukhoi-30MKK over Tibet and over Indian airspace?
  • What can we conclude about LCA and Rafale, overall?

Personally, I don't think LCA is meant to be at the forefront of strike missions inside Tibet.
1) tejas mk1 will be (better than aesa of rafale) fitted with aesa developing for tejas mk2 as per official sources
.
2) tejas's rcs is way lower than vial of su30mkk
.
while current radar of mkk is not comperative to mechanically scanned array of tejas
.
and not to forget the TESTED rafale fighter fought in libya that too with INFERIOR RADAR comparative to msa of tejas.
 
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pmaitra

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

The final decision for the deal had huge strategic considerations and i am sure they were placed when the deal was finalized. i personally feel it was the right decision but i am not a expert on the technicals like the other learned members here. i view it to be a long term defense and economic relationship we are entering with France. USD 23 billion + is huge.

I remember reading a article about India Haggling - might be appropriate:

How to Negotiate like an Indian — 7 Rules | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss



The deal with the France will also help set standard on the new joint development policy and also make in india emphasis. that is why the civilian and military spheres will work together because the sellers will not always share more on all defense parameters but can offer more offset in civilian technology as a substitute.

I trust in the Indian negotiators but also trust that both India and France will enter into a rewarding relationship for both.
From the quoted part:

Lock those prices and drop the expensive item.
:rotflmao:
 

pmaitra

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

1) tejas mk1 will be (better than aesa of rafale) fitted with aesa developing for tejas mk2 as per official sources
.
2) tejas's rcs is way lower than vial of su30mkk
.
while current radar of mkk is not comperative to mechanically scanned array of tejas
.
and not to forget the TESTED rafale fighter fought in libya that too with INFERIOR RADAR comparative to msa of tejas.
The Rafale also used the Scalp-EG in Libya. That missile might have contributed to the glory of Rafale.

I agree with @sgarg, with some added ideas from my side, that we should get the Rafale in a smaller number, but commit to ToT and some more extra pieces, only after we see that the French contribution actually gets the Kaveri engine off the research labs into the production line.
 
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abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

The Rafale also used the Scalp-EG in Libya. That missile might have contributed to the glory of Rafale.

I agree with @sgarg, with some added ideas from my side, that we should get the Rafale in a smaller number, but commit to ToT and some more extra pieces, only after we see that the French contribution actually gets the Kaveri engine off the research labs into the production line.
without TOT rafale deal is just USELESS. Hal has been fairly introduced with russian technology with su30 and will be also in future with fgfa.
.
as western metallurgy is superior to russian one, rafale can give a good experience to hal in western technology and metallurgy.
.
though I myself am saying it from year to reduce the number of rafale cause of its costs and it doesn't add much to iaf as all technologies are in tejas mk2 with many being superior.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

Interesting discussion.

Now it is up to IAF and MOD to decide. I have a feeling that BJP government will have doubts trusting the contours of this tender as this was concluded under Congress government.

The deal is too big and "too risky". Although the minister would like to listen to IAF (it makes sense to keep your people happy), the risk of the situation blowing up is quite serious.

It remains to be seen if the minister takes the risk on a deal in which he has zero vested interest.

I do not think kavery engine will benefit. I think DRDO has succeeded in making single crystal blades. India already has F404 and F414 engines for examples. The problem if any would be with materials and production processes which may or may not be part of TOT. The ability of HAL to absorb the technologies is also a question mark. My gut feeling is that India should not expect engine technology or even radar technology as part of offset.

The best that India can hope is HAL learns to make a better quality plane in terms of fit and finish and with superior materials. I doubt that TOT will be worth the money. Nobody gives key technology easily.
 
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pmaitra

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

without TOT rafale deal is just USELESS. Hal has been fairly introduced with russian technology with su30 and will be also in future with fgfa.
.
as western metallurgy is superior to russian one, rafale can give a good experience to hal in western technology and metallurgy.
.
though I myself am saying it from year to reduce the number of rafale cause of its costs and it doesn't add much to iaf as all technologies are in tejas mk2 with many being superior.
With ToT, it will be a little less useless, if not equally useless.

It will divert HAL's resources towards the Rafale, and absorbing its technology, which it won't be able to, to its fullest, and it will also take away HAL's resources from homegrown development.

We have been getting a lot of ToT, yet, we have been able to absorb only a fraction of it.

There is no substitute for homegrown technology, as it is not just how to get things done, but how to research and learn how to get things done. We need to make a beginning somewhere.

My opinion is, that we get the Rafale in limited numbers, and get the Kaveri off the labs into the production line. If we have to pay the French for the K10 core, so be it. No need to pay for Rafale ToT as yet.
 

sgarg

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Re: Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russ

You asked the question how will LCA Tejas fare if flying over Tibet and faces Chinese air force. My opinion is that it will fare as well as Rafale.

Tejas has acquired very good sensors and defensive suite. So is is a question of weapons carried. If weapons are good (Russian or Indian BVR missiles), the results may not be very different from Rafale.

The Rafale can carry more load and has greater range but that is little consolation if the chances of getting shot down are high.
 

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