Questioning Pakistan's claim on indigenous development of Jf-17/FC-1 with China

[roma]

we shouldnt be bothering with packland

whatever they get is from china and any contribution pack does is just superficial stuff

we should benchmark with china and with their serious econ situation coming up , that will make comparing with them all the more realistic as we will have a better chance of catching up ...that in itself will give pack some rattles ...... of course they will pretend to take it in stride.

@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey@aliyah @Alien@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD@bose @Bornubus @brational@blueblood@Blackwater@Blood+ @bhai-117
@Bangalorean @bengalraider @cobra commando @Chirag @Chris Jude @Chinmoy@Cadian @DingDong@ersakthivel @FRYCRY @guru-dutt@Hari Sud@hit&run @HeinzGud @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince@Kunal @Kshatriya87 Biswas@LETHALFORCE@laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim@pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy@Razor@Rashna @[email protected] @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg@sabari @Sameet2 @saik @sorcerer @sydsnyper @Sridevi @SREEKAR @TejasMK3@The enlightened
@tejas warrior@tharun@thethinker@tsunami@Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP @Vishwarupa @Vishal Guts @Yusuf@Yumdoot @Zebra

in keeping with the good spirit displayed by member @Neo, i have modified my post accordingly

he has acknowledged pakistans limited present role which they hope to expand in future .....thats realistic enough for me .....meanwhile as i suggested, we benchmark with china and forget packland

Pakistan lacks funds and an industrial eco-system to develop a fighter from scratch. Therefor we have a time tested friend who does have all we need and she's more than willing to function as our workshop, share required expertise and transfer technology.

Pakistan's defence infrastructure lacks transparency for good reasons and only a few privileged ones have full knowledge of the project.

AFAIK PAF's dedicated engineering team has been involved from day one as we wanted to transfer our expertise into the JF-17 and we did a great job working with Chinese engineers who patiently respected our ASR and gave their full cooperation.

It doesn't matter what % is contributed by Pakistan, what matters is that China is transferring full ToT to PAC Kamra. The JF-17 will gradually be locally produced and overhauled and it is not vulnerable to embargoes...........

 

[salute]

Pakistan lacks funds and an industrial eco-system to develop a fighter from scratch. Therefor we have a time tested friend who does have all we need and she's more than willing to function as our workshop, share required expertise and transfer technology.

Pakistan's defence infrastructure lacks transparency for good reasons and only a few privileged ones have full knowledge of the project.

AFAIK PAF's dedicated engineering team has been involved from day one as we wanted to transfer our expertise into the JF-17 and we did a great job working with Chinese engineers who patiently respected our ASR and gave their full cooperation.

It doesn't matter what % is contributed by Pakistan, what matters is that China is transferring full ToT to PAC Kamra. The JF-17 will gradually be locally produced and overhauled and it is not vulnerable to embargoes.

Many fanboys from both sides love to bash eachothers weakpoints hence we see a zillion threads in several fora and social media. Imho instead of throwing mud at eachother we both should be proud to have a national fighter program. How many developed nations can say that? Lca and Jft are both 4th gen platforms developed to replace a large number of ageing and obsolete fighters. JFT or LCA will never be a front line fighter but a force multiplier and a point defencer and we're both putting great efforts to make it what we want it to be.

So be proud at what we both have.

suddenly change of tone uhhhhh,

running away like junk jf,

answer the questions from first posts.

 

[gslv markIII]

It doesn't matter what % is contributed by Pakistan, what matters is that China is transferring full ToT to PAC Kamra. The JF-17 will gradually be locally produced and overhauled and it is not vulnerable to embargoes.

I hope the same can be said about IAF's Su 30 MKI too,since it is already locally produced.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

At first,

and have the clause to increase our ownership if we want to.

RIP English

Why does it hurt you so much, we own 52℅ of the project and have the clause to increase our ownership if we want to. Why are happy with it, be happy in our happiness

52% ? Really? :biggrin2:
Now, care to tell me how you guys contributed 52% in technology or I will insult you badly.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I admire your desperation. Keep up the good attitude.

Are bhai ye to tune hathiyar dal diye tere plane ki tarah. We were expecting some hot discussion.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I hope the same can be said about IAF's Su 30 MKI too,since it is already locally produced.

No Same can not be said. Even we produces sukhoi engines here and all the parts. The Pak share is some low skill labor and assembly.

 

[tsunami]

Pakistan have 52% share in the project without having money. How?

May be because of this...

 

[AbRaj]

Pakistan have 52% share in the project without having money. How?

May be because of this...

More likely due to

And

What about

 

[Pulkit]

@Dazzler @Neo
Just a Query What % of JF-17 is getting manufactured in Pakistan?

Just curious to know what all are you building in house after TOT from China and what all is still delivered by China and assembled in Pak.
+
What was Pak Contribution towards JF-17? Did Pak develop anything individually?

 

[guru-dutt]

we shouldnt be bothering with packland

whatever they get is from china and any contribution pack does is just superficial stuff

we should benchmark with china and with their serious econ situation coming up , that will make comparing with them all the more realistic as we will have a better chance of catching up ...that in itself will give pack some rattles ...... of course they will pretend to take it in stride.

@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey@aliyah @Alien@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD@bose @Bornubus @brational@blueblood@Blackwater@Blood+ @bhai-117
@Bangalorean @bengalraider @cobra commando @Chirag @Chris Jude @Chinmoy@Cadian @DingDong@ersakthivel @FRYCRY @guru-dutt@Hari Sud@hit&run @HeinzGud @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince@Kunal @Kshatriya87 Biswas@LETHALFORCE@laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim@pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy@Razor@Rashna @[email protected] @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg@sabari @Sameet2 @saik @sorcerer @sydsnyper @Sridevi @SREEKAR @TejasMK3@The enlightened
@tejas warrior@tharun@thethinker@tsunami@Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP @Vishwarupa @Vishal Guts @Yusuf@Yumdoot @Zebra

in keeping with the good spirit displayed by member @Neo, i have modified my post accordingly

he has acknowledged pakistans limited present role which they hope to expand in future .....thats realistic enough for me .....meanwhile as i suggested, we benchmark with china and forget packland

exactly why should we be botherred what porkies are doing or boasting truth of the pudding is in eating it and thats what matters porkies are no dought smarter than us when it comes to getting latest tech at reasonable price IP rights dont really matter

 

[guru-dutt]

More likely due to

And

What about

man that really cracked me up looks like chinkies are dellibaretelli trolling porkiestani ghairath i dont think chinkies are so naive that they dint know about swear words in pakistan when they are in relationship with them for almost 65 years now

 

[salute]

guys keep this thread only about technical aspects or about questioning pakis about their technical contribution provided to their so called paki made junk jf,
those pakis are trying to be slippery bitches,
like their jf jet ran away from bahrain air show,

they still did not gave answers about questions from first post,
these pakis not only gonna learn about lca but also gonna learn about their own bs jf jet too.

@Alien @angeldude13 @Abhijat @Ancient Indian @anupamsurey @aliyah @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD @bose @Bornubus @brational @Blackwater
@Chinmoy @DingDong @FRYCRY @guru-dutt @Hari Sud @hit&run @HeinzGud @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince @Kshatriya87 @LETHALFORCE @laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy @Razor @Rashna @rock127 @R.parida @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg @sabari @sorcerer @sydsnyper @SREEKAR @TejasMK3 @The enlightened
@tejas warrior @tharun @thethinker @tsunami @Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP
@AbRaj @HariPrasad-1 @gslv markIII @Indx TechStyle

 

[Rashna]

Maybe we need to look at this news and draw our own conclusions about anything made with Chinese "help".

Not top gun yet: China struggles with warplane engine technology
HIGHLIGHTS
• Experts say Chinese warplane engines don't match Western designs.

• China held talks with Russia in November on engine collaboration.

• China is forecast to spend $300 billion on engine programmes over 20 years

SINGAPORE: China has built a potent military machine over the past 30 years but is struggling to develop advanced engines that would allow its warplanes to match Western fighters in combat, foreign and Chinese industry sources said.

The country's engine technology lags that of United Technologies unit Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and Rolls-Royce, said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

China's defence ministry, in a brief statement to Reuters, said there was a "definite gap" between Chinese military technology and some developed countries, adding Beijing would continue to strengthen its armed forces.

Western restrictions on arms exports to China prohibit the sale of Western engines for military use, forcing China to rely on homegrown designs or engines Russia has agreed to sell.

"Chinese engine-makers face a multitude of problems," said Michael Raska, assistant professor in the military transformations programme at Singapore's S Rajaratnam School of International Studies.

Among the issues, China's J-20 and J-31 stealth fighters cannot super-cruise, or fly at supersonic speeds like their closest rivals, Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35 stealth planes, without using after-burners, said two industry sources who follow Beijing's military programmes closely.

After-burners remove a warplane's stealthiness, a capability that allows them to escape radar detection.

Even the warplane engine that experts consider to be China's best has reliability issues, said the sources, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.

South China Sea

A Chinese military expert, who has knowledge of the government's defence policy but who declined to be identified, said Chinese fighter jets could not perform as well as American warplanes because of inferior engine technology.

That puts China at a disadvantage should its warplanes be pitted against US jet fighters or those from security ally Japan in Asia's disputed waters, the industry sources and security experts said.

Chinese warplanes are likely to come into increasing contact with US fighters over the South China Sea in the years ahead after Beijing conducted its first test flights this month to one of three island runways it is building in the contested Spratly archipelago, security experts said.

In any conflict, China would likely rely on sheer numbers of fighters as well as a growing arsenal of sophisticated missiles that can be launched from warships or land, they added.

To be sure, China has made warplane engine development a priority in recent years, sources said.

The Shanghai-based Galleon group, which provides consulting services to the aerospace industry, estimates Beijing will spend $300 billion over the next 20 years on civil and military aircraft engine programmes.

Some sources said China had hired several foreign engineers and former air force personnel to work on engine development, although this could not be independently confirmed. The Chinese Defence Ministry declined to comment.

"In 20 to 30 years time, given the amount of work they have done and the effort they are putting into it, they should have a viable military engine," said Greg Waldron, Asia Managing Editor at Flightglobal, an industry publication.

Engine makers merged

China first manufactured warplanes under licence from Russia in the 1950s. Its indigenous fighter jet programme kicked into full swing in the 1980s.

The country's best warplane engine is the WS-10A Taihang, made by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, a subsidiary of China's biggest state-owned aerospace and defence company, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the sources said.

In development since the late 1980s, Chinese state media reports say more than 250 have been fitted to some fourth-generation J-10s and J-11s.

But the engines don't produce enough thrust, or power, and need frequent repairs, added the sources.

"They are trying to improve the Taihang, but reliability is a major problem," said one source.

AVIC did not respond to a request for comment while Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute could not be reached for comment.

In October, state media said three engine makers owned by AVIC would merge into one firm.

China will do more to integrate other engine-making firms in the coming years, said a Chinese source in the country's aerospace industry.


This would help coordination across civilian and military engine research and development and production, said the source.




The defence ministry declined to comment.








In November, China held talks with Russian state-owned aircraft engine manufacturer United Engine Corp on the possible joint development and production of military engines at the same time it signed a deal to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, one of Moscow's most advanced warplanes.



The Chinese defence ministry declined to comment on the status of the discussions.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ne-engine-technology/articleshow/50772069.cms

 

[Rashna]

INTERESTING .. ...........................................................................

 

[punjab47]

@Rashna & people trash kaveri at 55/81kn when it's better than rafale engine & comparable to Ge 404 in 20 (special India version, best one 20k lb thrust)

We could easily make a twin engine plane with it. It's also better than original mig 21 engine which was 45/70.
Sukhoi engine far better though. We're 2nd rate power atm, China is 2.5

 

[Dazzler]

At first,

RIP English


52% ? Really? :biggrin2:
Now, care to tell me how you guys contributed 52% in technology or I will insult you badly.

oh you cunning linguist, read the post again, pakistan is a joint partner in the project with 52% share. no where does it say they make 52% or the aircraft on our own or have shared that much technology into it. Do you understand the difference between the two?I bet my last coin you dont. mate, i reply through my cell phone and often busy so give me some breathing space.


Yes the jf-17 does use plenty of indigenous components exclusively made by pakistani defence companies but it comes nowhere near to the 52%. go back a few pages and check my post where is provided the list of those products.

On a serious note

Pakistan has never developed a fighter aircraft prior to jf-17, and we have been short on budget most of the time due to one reason or another. A joint project with china was the only way we could develop a sanction free decent fighter aircraft for use.

You guys miss a crucial part of the entire equation and come up with your arguments and comparison which is neither fair nor just. India could afford to build a billion dollar LCA, albeit with a lot of foreign help and problems that just dont hush away. Both countries have their share of strengths and weaknesses and both projects are well suited for their respective primary users.


Many parts are pakistani, including front fuselage, rudder, canopy, VHF/ UHF comm, data link, cockpit displays are now indigenous and made at KARF factory, weapons and mission management computer, light management system, global altitude and heading reference system, back up mission computer and tyres by general tyres among others.

 

[AbRaj]

oh you cunning linguist, read the post again, pakistan is a joint partner in the project with 52% share. no where does it say they make 52% or the aircraft on our own or have shared that much technology into it. Do you understand the difference between the two?I bet my last coin you dont. mate, i reply through my cell phone and often busy so give me some breathing space.


Yes the jf-17 does use plenty of indigenous components exclusively made by pakistani defence companies but it comes nowhere near to the 52%. go back a few pages and check my post where is provided the list of those products.

On a serious note

Pakistan has never developed a fighter aircraft prior to jf-17, and we have been short on budget most of the time due to one reason or another. A joint project with china was the only way we could develop a sanction free decent fighter aircraft for use.

You guys miss a crucial part of the entire equation and come up with your arguments and comparison which is neither fair nor just. India could afford to build a billion dollar LCA, albeit with a lot of foreign help and problems that just dont hush away. Both countries have their share of strengths and weaknesses and both projects are well suited for their respective primary users.


Many parts are pakistani, including front fuselage, rudder, canopy, VHF/ UHF comm, data link, cockpit displays are now indigenous and made at KARF factory, weapons and mission management computer, light management system, global altitude and heading reference system, back up mission computer and tyres by general tyres among others.

@Dazzler mate trolling aside I really appreciate what Pakistan got from JF17 and any other sane country would have done that under current senerio
PAF is strongly backing jf17 project which is commendable considering the opposition it faces and hope it serve you well

Btw I would like to know more about components and modifications done by Pakistan, if you have knowledge kindly share
Regards

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler mate trolling aside I really appreciate what Pakistan got from JF17 and any other sane country would have done that under current senerio
PAF is strongly backing jf17 project which is commendable considering the opposition it faces and hope it serve you well

Btw I would like to know more about components and modifications done by Pakistan, if you have knowledge kindly share
Regards

Many parts are pakistani, including front fuselage, rudder, canopy, VHF/ UHF comm, data link, cockpit displays are now indigenous and made at KARF factory, weapons and mission management computer, light management system, global altitude and heading reference system, back up mission computer and tyres by general tyres among others.

 

[AbRaj]

Many parts are pakistani, including front fuselage, rudder, canopy, VHF/ UHF comm, data link, cockpit displays are now indigenous and made at KARF factory, weapons and mission management computer, light management system, global altitude and heading reference system, back up mission computer and tyres by general tyres among others.

Some details will be appreciated

 

[Dazzler]

Some details will be appreciated

what type of details you need?