Queries !!

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by plugwater, Sep 7, 2010.

  1. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    We shall use this thread to ask any defense related questions.

    Here is my question, we have active protection system in armored vehicles like Trophy(Israel) and arena(Russia) and in ships we are using close in weapon system(CIWS) for hard kill. we are using only soft kill systems in helicopters and aircrafts, why cant we use hard kill systems in helicopter and aircrafts ? If there are no hard kill system available can we develop one ?
     
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  3. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Thats a very growing concern these days. Those MANPADS, RPGs & small arms are very cheap easily available to Terrorists, separatists taking down Helos, aircrafts in substantial proportion. US & West forces suffered many rotorcraft losses in Afgan war.

    Now I am not sure how the classification can be done on "Hard-kill" & "soft-kill" systems among countermeasures or protection solutions on these Helos, aircrafts. But recently as the need grew many new effective Defense systems are developed by US, Israel against such so-termed "Dumb threats" for Helos/aircrafts.

    Here is look into US approach --

    Rest story here - Hard to protect helos from insurgent RPG fire - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

    The Isralies are also coming up with their solution. Maybe IA/IAF should take it for trial or some sort of JV can be continued.


    http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/34957239-5D65-4E10-A3D7-EE336AEFC619/0/sod_imi.pdf

    Here is link to a thread I posted sometime back - http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/american-defence-forum/12043.htm

    I think these new counter-measures against dumb-fires & shoulder-mounted missiles should assure Helo's survivability. As what I have observed, most of these new solutions give opportunity to pilot to evade the incoming attack by allowing larger response time window.
     
  4. borgking82

    borgking82 Regular Member

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    Queries !!

    The Brahmos and Nirbhay cruise missiles have turbojet engines. My questions are: which labs under DRDO developing them? Are they the same people developing the Kaveri engine? If so why can't they use the knowledge gained from the cruise missile projects to build a new engine that'll replace the Kaveri? Plus does DRDO even do project planning and management at all? It seems to me that by the time DRDO develops a fighter jet engine, the West and others would be using more advanced engines like the Pulsed Detonation Engine.
     
  5. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    active APS in tanks is what are you talking about??

    Tanks because of their heavy armour are relatively slow moving, less maneurable and have to encounter ground obstacles dictated by the geography they operate in and unless the air space is secure they are sitting ducks for helis who are their nemesis apart from the rogue and regular MANPAD operators firing ATGMs (a problem which can't be solved easily) and IFVs from vantage points at weak spots of the tank.

    hence the APS - for self protection - though, they would still be vulnerable to attack helicopters due to their mobility being restricted by the geography.

    Attack Helis OTOH are pretty well protected and are the predators for the tanks and they carry ATGMs/cannons - cued, by HMD, in some - and are protected by EW suites with RWRs and laser/missile warners, CDMS, IR countermeasures, IR reduction systems besides FLIR. also a point to be noted - these attack helis like the LCH enter the field when the airspace is secure and most of these have a radar to boot which are either mast mounted or nose mounted. besides they operate in the air with so to say no obstacles and are highly maneurable and operate beyond the range of the ATGMs. having said that are they invulnerable?? definitely not. because the danger from MANPADs and guns which are operated individually by either rogue elements or rogues aided by the enemy military positioned at unsecured vantage points are still a threat. case in point A'stan where US and allied forces are having tough time operating these helis or even a Kargill like situation. unless the whole area is cleansed of these rogues, this problem will exist. better INTEL can partly address this but can't eliminate it and this is even more relevant in a scenario where the fight is not between regular armies/forces but between the regulars and rogues, a scenario akin to civil war - like in A'stan. you are challenged and you take the challenge. you may win most but will also lose some.

    same with aircrafts although the incomparable speed puts them in a different class altogether from that of the attack helicopters.

    so what other need is there for the helis/aircrafts to have these APS sort of systems when they already have more than that??

    or may be i did not get/understand your question.

    PS : however technology keeps changing and we will see better systems in the days to come.
     
  6. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Correct me if i am wrong soft kills systems include like Jammers, Decoys etc if a hostile missile is launched towards a vehicle means the countermeasure system tries to disable the rocket or missile by IR jammers/decoys and if the soft kill system fails the last attempt is made by hard kill systems which is to impact the hostile rocket with the another countermeasure rocket. So the hard kill system is basically shooting down a hostile missile with another rocket or gun. This is what being used in armored vehicles and MBTs.

    But what i am trying to understand is why there is only soft kill systems are used in aircraft against SAM or AAM. Its not so difficult to add a small countermeasure rockets or a gun especially to target the incoming missiles in aircrafts. Trophy active protection system has been developed in a way there will no danger to the infantry walking near the armored vehicles so it rules out the danger of shrapnel caused during the hard kill hitting the aircrafts.
     
  7. black eagle

    black eagle Senior Member Senior Member

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    Will the AAD have one missile per launcher only & will the missile tube look like a cage rather than a tube?
     
  8. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Most probably this kind of launch system will be used

    [​IMG]
    Credit sayareakd
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Brahmos is not a turbofan but a ramjet engine,turbofan are relatively cheap and can be mass produced. I don 't know if we are working on pulse detonation engines but we are working on scramjets which will be used in brahmos 2 and other missiles as well as vehicles like avatar.
     
  10. black eagle

    black eagle Senior Member Senior Member

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    even then it seems the 'cage' tube will remain.
     
  11. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Nothing is confirmed. We need to wait till its induction to see the actual configuration.
     
  12. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Before asking this question let me clarify few things regarding sold fuel and liquid fuel.
    There are certain advantages and disadvantages for both solid and liquid fuel

    Solid fuel

    Less complex engine
    Thrust is low
    Can used in rugged conditions
    Very easy to transport, maintain and store
    Cannot be throttled up or control once it starts burning

    Liquid fuel

    Liquid fuel are much more complicated than solid fuel
    Very complex Engine
    Needs to kept at low temperatures
    Have 2 times more thrust than solid fuel
    Can be throttled up and control during the flight

    So in most of the countries solid fuel is used in missiles and liquid fuel in rockets. In some satellite launch vehicles boosters in first stage uses solid as its fuel. So mixed propulsion is already in use for rockets can it be used in missiles too ?
    My idea is we can use liquid fuel in first stage because of its higher thrust and solid fuel for 2nd and 3rd stages in missiles.
    Any other ideas for mixed propellant are also welcome!
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  13. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    mixed propulsion ..in missiles ...well it can be used but their are certain limitations of mixed propulsions to be used in missiles
    in case of rockets the time of launch is fixed and it can be postponed if any technical sang occurs it is not that important
    but in case of missiles they are need to ready to fire state if we use liquid propulsion in missile they need regular checking and replacement & as u said liquid fuel system has lot of moving parts so their is higher rate of failure more over and important thing is that the Oxidiser should be kept in extremely cooled condition and need continuous monitoring other wise it will fail to burn up

    so maintainence of solid stage missiles in tel vehicles in ready to fire condition is easy and economical then using liquid fuel
    because liquid fuel system needs maintains and replacement of fuel after certain period of time where as in solid fuels it can be stored for years
     
  14. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Exactly i agree with everything you mentioned but the idea is to make a mixed propellant missile. There are liquid propellant missiles too in other countries in fact Russia is making a replacement for R-36 ICBM which is liquid propellant. So in order to increase the capability of a missile we can use both solid and liquid propellant in various stages. I dont know how Russia is going to maintain the R-36 replacement(liquid propellant) but we can conclude they have found a way to use liquid propellant effectively that is why they are changing the propellant.
     
  15. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    yes research's are going in countries like US ,Russia in this directions they are figuring out possibilities of applying liquid propulsion to the final stage of their missiles .. this still takes some times to get productive
    but till now no one yet confirmed advanced liquid propulsion technology in their missiles officially.
     
  16. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    surprisingly both countries hinted they are developing this kind of technology in dec 2009
     
  17. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    SS-19 Stiletto Russian ICBM uses liquid propulsion which is still in service. So can liquid propulsion be used in missiles is out of the question i guess. We may have to wait for the mixed propulsion only.
     
  18. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Russia already have liquid propellant missiles. I have no idea about USA though. Can you give some details about USA liquid propulsion missile ?
     
  19. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    yes liqud prop is used .....it need frequent monitoring and maintains they cannot be left as solid propelled missile for long time in inventory .which is costly affair ,failure rate and problems are more in liquid propelled engines
     
  20. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    titan 1,2 - http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/launch/titan.htm
    SM-65 Atlas-dual use

    Minuteman I- was the first solid propelled missile developed in US
     
  21. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    But still there are lot of advantages in using liquid propulsion just because of the ability to throttle up the missile can be made more maneuverable and also can be made smaller because of thrust. That is why asked for mixed propulsion based on the advantages of both propulsion the type of propulsion can be used in various stages as needed.
    Maintaining a missile regiment is always a costly affair so with some extra maintenance we can have a deadly missile with both propellant. I dont know about the Failure rate because most of the rockets are using liquid propulsion. It is costly but the liquid propulsion is the most effective one.
     

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