Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

[sgarg]

@Ray, the national boundaries are not static. The boundaries can change. If land boundaries define a country then the situation will be worse compared to defining a nationality.

In case of Bengali and north Indian, there is some connection that keeps them together. We need to understand what that connection is.

The connection is common Vedic root. Both people are descendants of earlier Vedic people.

 

[Ray]

@Ray, the national boundaries are not static. The boundaries can change. If land boundaries define a country then the situation will be worse compared to defining a nationality.

In case of Bengali and north Indian, there is some connection that keeps them together. We need to understand what that connection is.

The connection is common Vedic root. Both people are descendants of earlier Vedic people.

What are the connection?

Vedic roots?

If you study RC Mazumdar, the historian, you will realise that the Bengali roots are older than the composition of Bodhayan Dharmasutra, which mentions the place, Aryavarta for the first time.

Also read The Bengalees: Glimpses of History and Culture by Samaren Roy.

You will be surprised.

That apart this is what Wiki states:

The Vasistha Dharma Sutra I.8-9 and 12-13 locates Āryāvarta to the east of the disappearance of the Sarasvati in the desert, to the west of Kalakavana, to the north of the mountains of Pariyatra and Vindhya and to the south of the Himalaya. Baudhayana Dharmasutra (BDS) 1.1.2.10 gives similar definitions and declares that Āryāvarta is the land that lies west of Kalakavana, east of Adarsana, south of the Himalayas and north of the Vindhyas, but in BDS 1.1.2.11 Āryāvarta is confined to the Ganges - Yamuna doab, and BDS 1.1.2.13-15. Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya[citation needed] defines Āryāvarta like the Vasistha Dharma Sutra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Āryāvarta

 

[sgarg]

The 18 kingdoms that took part in Mahabharat war included "vanga" which is today's Bengal.

Different writers have different interpretations of history. India has lost authenticity of its history due to large scale destruction of ancient manuscripts during Islamic period.

Many manuscripts that survive are not authentic due to shenanigans of late period Hindu kings and their courtiers. Basically history has been modified to suit political interests.

I have not read the books you mention but I would not be surprised in these books are no more than 300-400 years old.

Anyway let us go back to Russia. Putin has every right to talk about a Slavic identity.

 

[Mad Indian]

First I'll requote the post (#43 on this thread) that I made earlier in response to you.



So basically if it's okay for Brits to appease Hitlr, then it is okay for Soviets to appease Hitler too.


So in conclusion: Survival is most important and Tough times call for Tough decisions. Nothing wrong with that.

So basically, the westerners here are whining about how USSR dint save their sorry asses from hitler sooner than later, even though westerners themselves dint want to fight for it

Its really funny when westerners get caught with their pants down whenever they talk crap about morals

PS: Allies were basically worse bastards compared to Axis, if we look at the body count and so I cant really understand the big fuss about the USSR-Axis neutrality

And seriously, an australian is talking about evils of Hitler? WTF? Aborginals anyone?

 

[pmaitra]

You will agree with me that Pan-Slavism is an integral part of Russian nationalism? That Russians consider it their duty to unite their Slavic brothers in Eastern Europe (Already sounds like Putin eh?). Then (USSR) and now (Russia) this is the justification of Russian claim to Ukraine and neighbors.

The Baltic states and Finland on the other hand were previously part of Tsarist Russia. The USSR under Stalin used the opportunity presented by Hitler to reacquire these areas. This too it must be said has roots in Russian nationalism.

I agree with you that Pan-Slavism is an integral part of Russian nationalism.

I will add that Ruissian nationalism today seeks to undo the damage done by the Soviets,by dividing up the Slavic people into three arbitrary states, namely ByeloRussia and MaloRussia (Ukraine).

I think @Ray Sir has explained it better than I could have, in his post below.

Have you interacted with Russians during the USSR days.

If you had, you would not have made that comment separating ideology with nationalism.

It is the ideology that germinated the nationalism that the Russians had in those days.

Or else a country with 70% East Slavs, 12% Turkic peoples would not have been one and be able to stand the onslaught of Nazi Germany and then of the West.

If there were no nationalism, then the Ukrainians at Kiev would have welcomed the Nazi Germany in the Battle of Kiev and in the Siege of Stalingrad, the heterogeneous population should have done the same.

The Battle of Stalingrad saw perhaps the greatest casualty figures of any battle in warfare (estimates are between 1,250,000 and 1,798,619). The battle began on August 19, 1942, and on Augsut 23, the city suffered heavy aerial bombardment that reduced most of it to rubble. You may see this link to see what a heterogeneous compostion defended the city
Link

I might remind you that German settlement-colony Old Sarepta was also within Stalingrad.

So, now have a second guess about nationalism and the contribution of ideology.

 

[pmaitra]

The 18 kingdoms that took part in Mahabharat war included "vanga" which is today's Bengal.

Different writers have different interpretations of history. India has lost authenticity of its history due to large scale destruction of ancient manuscripts during Islamic period.

Many manuscripts that survive are not authentic due to shenanigans of late period Hindu kings and their courtiers. Basically history has been modified to suit political interests.

I have not read the books you mention but I would not be surprised in these books are no more than 300-400 years old.

Anyway let us go back to Russia. Putin has every right to talk about a Slavic identity.

Vanga and Sindhu are two regions that were fighting against the "mainland" India (for lack of a better word). For whatever reason, the bulk of these two regions are not part of India today.

Anyway, I agree with your last line.

 

[Ray]

The 18 kingdoms that took part in Mahabharat war included "vanga" which is today's Bengal.

Different writers have different interpretations of history. India has lost authenticity of its history due to large scale destruction of ancient manuscripts during Islamic period.

Many manuscripts that survive are not authentic due to shenanigans of late period Hindu kings and their courtiers. Basically history has been modified to suit political interests.

I have not read the books you mention but I would not be surprised in these books are no more than 300-400 years old.

Anyway let us go back to Russia. Putin has every right to talk about a Slavic identity.

Mahabharat is Vedic.

Bengali culture is pre Vedic.

Check this out

Bengalis are distinct from the Aryan Hindus.
The Bengalees Glimpses of History and Culture > Roy, Samaren | Saujanya Books

Read from this link
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...alees Glimpses of History and Culture&f=false

Even many elements in the culture and civilisation of Gauda and Vanga differentiated the Bengalis from the rest of India and imparted a distinct individuality to the Bengalis (History of Ancient Bengal, Calcutta p 468)

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Mahabharat is Vedic.

Bengali culture is pre Vedic.

Check this out

Bengalis are distinct from the Aryan Hindus.
The Bengalees Glimpses of History and Culture > Roy, Samaren | Saujanya Books

Read from this link
The Bengalees: Glimpses of History and Culture - Samaren Roy - Google Books

Even many elements in the culture and civilisation of Gauda and Vanga differentiated the Bengalis from the rest of India and imparted a distinct individuality to the Bengalis (History of Ancient Bengal, Calcutta p 468)

Aren't these books authored by self-confessed Communist ideologues (who also moonlighted as pseudo-historians) ? Just asking.

 

[pmaitra]

Aren't these books authored by self-confessed Communist ideologues (who also moonlighted as pseudo-historians) ? Just asking.

It depends upon whom you ask.

For me, Arun Shourie is a pseudo historian.

I would read the content of the aforementioned links, and then decide whether to agree or disagree. Who wrote them is secondary.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

I would read the content of the aforementioned links, and then decide whether to agree or disagree. Who wrote them is secondary.

Actually, I have been reading it since last 2 hours. Though it talks about C-dating techniques etc., it is in fact quite dated. It is apparently based on the notions/findings popular before ANI/ASI theory separated the grain from the chaff.

 

[pmaitra]

Actually, I have been reading it since last 2 hours. Though it talks about C-dating techniques etc., it is in fact quite dated. It is apparently based on the notions/findings popular before ANI/ASI theory separated the grain from the chaff.

It is a big debate that I have discussed over a long period of time. I was not impressed by the loopholes in the ANI/ASI theory, but we shall leave that for an appropriate thread.

 

[pmaitra]

Coming back to "internationalism," Lenin was certainly an internationalist, and so was Lev Trotsky.

Lenin's position is believed to be closer to Trotsky, further from Stalin.

It is understandable as both Trotsky and Lenin had a cosmopolitan outlook. Lenin lived in Germany, Britain, and Switzerland, while Trotsky grew up in the vicinity of cosmopolitan port city of Odessa (born in Kherson), and eventually escaped to Britain. It is interesting to note that the nerve centre of the RSDLP, moved from Minsk, to London as well.

This raises more questions, and let's debate it here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...early-20th-century-post971526.html#post971526

 

[sgarg]

The people of USSR were united by ideology of socialism. Socialism is a very powerful ideology. I agree that ideology can creates a nation.

The Vedic society was not racially homogeneous. It was homogeneous by language and knowledge. So ideology always plays a big part.

Ideology is necessary for unity.

 

[jouni]

People in USSR were united by police state blocking the borders, flow of information and creating the imaginery threat of enemy waiting outside the borders. That changed the psyche of the people and created homo sovieticus, which is still recognizable in Russian people today.

 

[Ray]

Aren't these books authored by self-confessed Communist ideologues (who also moonlighted as pseudo-historians) ? Just asking.

Are they?

RC Mazumdar is a very respected historian who was way before Indian got its Independence and other people quoted are way before India was Independent and Indian scriptures quoted are ancient.

 

[Ray]

People in USSR were united by police state blocking the borders, flow of information and creating the imaginery threat of enemy waiting outside the borders. That changed the psyche of the people and created homo sovieticus, which is still recognizable in Russian people today.

The same way Communists were banned in the US and Macarthy hounded anyone who was not in agreement with this very right wing views.

Have you missed American gung ho-ism that claims that they alone are right and the sole moral, political force in the world?

For instance, Bush and his Freedom and Democracy?

Did he really give Freedom and Democracy to Iraq or did he ensure that the Middle East goes into a turmoil and fundamentalist Islam raises it ugly head to plague the world?

Maybe Finland is too far out for the Islamic fundamentalist for the moment, but ask those who are facing them daily.

I know of a US Professor who left the US and went to Czechoslovakia. He was disillusioned with Communism and wanted to return to the US, but was not allowed. And so he came to India and worked at the Indian Statistical Institute.

 

[jouni]

The same way Communists were banned in the US and Macarthy hounded anyone who was not in agreement with this very right wing views.

Have you missed American gung ho-ism that claims that they alone are right and the sole moral, political force in the world?

For instance, Bush and his Freedom and Democracy?

Did he really give Freedom and Democracy to Iraq or did he ensure that the Middle East goes into a turmoil and fundamentalist Islam raises it ugly head to plague the world?

Maybe Finland is too far out for the Islamic fundamentalist for the moment, but ask those who are facing them daily.

I know of a US Professor who left the US and went to Czechoslovakia. He was disillusioned with Communism and wanted to return to the US, but was not allowed. And so he came to India and worked at the Indian Statistical Institute.

Lets forget America for a while. I live 20km from Russia. I cannot think of a single thing that Finland could learn or adapt from Russia. And I am not anti Russian, they are just decades behind in most areas of life. Saying that for example Ukraine could choose between Russia and EU is like saying you can choose between bicycle and motorcycle. Maybe from Indian perspective Russia is a model state, but for me your prorussianism is pretty hard to understand.

 

[Ray]

Lets forget America for a while. I live 20km from Russia. I cannot think of a single thing that Finland could learn or adapt from Russia. And I am not anti Russian, they are just decades behind in most areas of life. Saying that for example Ukraine could choose between Russia and EU is like saying you can choose between bicycle and motorcycle. Maybe from Indian perspective Russia is a model state, but for me your prorussianism is pretty hard to understand.

For the love of me, I cannot learn a damn from either Russia or America. Their environment is very different and is not suited to our psyche and temperament.

As far as Ukraine is concerned, they should decide for themselves and not be coaxed, cajoled or bribed by either Russia or US and its surrogates.

Russia is hardly a model State and neither is America. They are OK for their own citizens and not for us to replicate either.

I am neither pro Russia, nor pro America since it matters a sausage to me.

All I feel is that one should look at the situation pragmatically and not be swayed by propaganda and spin.

One cannot forget America even for a while. They are in the news all the time, thanks to their overactive media presence and hype.

We get CNN, BBC etc out here, but I daresay we have any Russian channel being subscribed on the DTH service provider. At least, not mine.

These days we get Al Jazeera too, but not Al Arabiya.

BTW, the Communist Parties in India which had a sizeable presence (not too big) has now been decimated. So, do not feel that India has any love for Communism or Russia. It is just that we have a penchant for seeking a fair and level playing ground. US and Western propaganda and channel appear a wee bit tired and overworked in the propaganda and that rankles!

Can any nation be right always and every time? But that is the impression that the US media and channels want us to believe, as if we are still naked natives running around in the bush! We are educated, intelligent and have a mind of our own. Therefore, we buy nobody's line but use our brains to analyse.

You in Finland may identify yourself with Europe and the US because of your history, we have no such baggage to attract us to toe the Western partyline.

We are Asians and our perspective is way different. We think of Asia and not of Europe or the US or Russia for our own issues.

 

[jouni]

Yes, you are far away from European problems. Let me give you few examples here: a small municipality where I live has a budget of 34 Million a year, a teacher earns 3500 Euros a month. Similar sized municipality 50 km away in the Russian side has a budget of 500 000 Euros and teachers salary is 300 Euros a month. We all hope that the living standard gap gets smaller, but unfortunately current Russian policies will mean that it gets wider still. No propaganda in the world can hide it.

 

[Ray]

Yes, you are far away from European problems. Let me give you few examples here: a small municipality where I live has a budget of 34 Million a year, a teacher earns 3500 Euros a month. Similar sized municipality 50 km away in the Russian side has a budget of 500 000 Euros and teachers salary is 300 Euros a month. We all hope that the living standard gap gets smaller, but unfortunately current Russian policies will mean that it gets wider still. No propaganda in the world can hide it.

How does it affect us in India?

The US officer or my rank gets a King's ransom for pay and perks.

So?

And your point is?