Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

apple

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Let us not forget the Britishers and their years of "Appeasement".
Good point, but the French should get some credit too. While Hitler and Stalin were dividing up Europe and deciding on who would invade which country, Western Europe was still trying to prevent war.

That is a big, interesting and important subject. That subject has been co-opted by idiots though... The internet is a great academic tool. But, it's been abused by many.

Whatever be the real reasons it did lead to the independence of the Baltic states.
Think your making a big deal about something that isn't so important. As has been mentioned, the Molotov- Ribbentrop had been know about for a long time. By the 80's the Baltic people had suffered 30+ years of brutal oppression. The didn't need the exact details of a 50 year old pact to tell them about the Soviet Union.
 

asianobserve

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I meant why was the complete pact only declassified during gorbi`s reign and not during any other soviet leader`s reign. What was the motive for that?

Also USSR denied the pact.

You have to blame the Soviet's penchant for annexation of smaller countries around it (a disease that the smaller Russia seems to have as well). Anyway, the Soviets used the Secret Protocol as a (secret) basis to annex Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania into the USSR in 1940. The West did not recognise this annexation. The nationalists in these countries have always been restive under Soviet rule and were constantly looking forward to their independence.

The Soviet version of the Baltic annexation was that allegedly these states voluntarily joined the USSR (sound familiar?). But there was actually no popular or official act from these Baltic states to join the USSR. The USSR just made that up. Hence, to hide the dubious, unjustifiable and embarrassing (Stalin colluded with the devil himself Hitler to have that Secret Protocol) basis for the USSR's annexation of the Baltic states, the Soviet government completely denied the existence of the Secret Protocol until they could no longer do it due to popular demand from these Baltic states.
 

Peter

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Think your making a big deal about something that isn't so important. As has been mentioned, the Molotov- Ribbentrop had been know about for a long time. By the 80's the Baltic people had suffered 30+ years of brutal oppression. The didn't need the exact details of a 50 year old pact to tell them about the Soviet Union.
Well the revelation of the secret part of the pact further increased tensions in the Baltics. Also Wikipedia clearly mentions about the Baltic way and how the revelation of the pact further increased nationalism in the Baltic states. In fact The Baltic states started declaring independence a few months after the pact was disclosed. Also if you read about Gorbi you will find that many of his near and dear ones became victims of the USSR regime. His grandfather,two sisters etc could have been alive if USSR was not there. So there were reasons for him to bear a grudge against USSR.

Also him being from Ukraine,the land of Holodomor further justifies my suspicions.
 

jouni

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Yes that`s right. I do not like Putin but I also do not like the concept of fragmented tiny nations. One can never forget that it was this fragmented india the British managed to conquer. During the reign of Aurangzeb the English had to bow down to him. They were defeated by us. However once India fragmented into smaller states we all know the disaster that befell us.
I was just watching press conference where prime ministers of Estonia (2.5M) and Finland (5.5M) announced joint LNG terminal of which EU will cover 75% of costs. In EU big and small are equal. Sorry to say, but your comment if shared by majority of Indians means that there is not much hope for your country.
 

Razor

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I wonder what's wrong with being NAZI among you Russians when no less than your President Putin has defended USSR's infamous pact with the devil himself, Hitler, known as the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact?

First I'll requote the post (#43 on this thread) that I made earlier in response to you.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ensured that WW2 really happened and sooner. The Western powers were doing everything they can to prevent war by appeasing Hitler (they gave him the smaller countries without much grumbling), that Hitler ass-licking defeatest Chamberlain even allowed himself to be fooled by Hitler just so he can have his peace in Europe dream.

Exactly. West gave away some territory to "appease" Hitler (they may have had other motives too.)
Similarly USSR decided to appease Hitler too.
What USSR did is just as right or wrong as what West did.
So basically if it's okay for Brits to appease Hitlr, then it is okay for Soviets to appease Hitler too.

Next, reading the article you have given

Putin says: " But what's bad about that if the Soviet Union didn't want to fight? What's bad about it?" and "Serious research should show that those were the methods of foreign policy then,"
Not entirely same as defending the pact.

So in conclusion: Survival is most important and Tough times call for Tough decisions. Nothing wrong with that.
 

asianobserve

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First I'll requote the post (#43 on this thread) that I made earlier in response to you.



So basically if it's okay for Brits to appease Hitlr, then it is okay for Soviets to appease Hitler too.
I don't believe you really read about the Secret Protocol in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact or understood it. The USSR did not just appease Hitler there, it actively colluded and participated with Hitler redrawing Europe by annexing Poland (they partitioned it after they both invaded it) and the Baltic States (that went to the USSR).

The Western powers on the other hand simply appeased Hitler because of their weakness.


Next, reading the article you have given



Putin says: " But what's bad about that if the Soviet Union didn't want to fight? What's bad about it?" and "Serious research should show that those were the methods of foreign policy then,"
Not entirely same as defending the pact.

So in conclusion: Survival is most important and Tough times call for Tough decisions. Nothing wrong with that.
Again, it should be clear to you that Putin is once again making his own fairy tale. As I said the Soviets were not passive partners of Hitler in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The USSR was an active partner there as it allowed it to absorb large swaths of Poland and swallow the Baltic states.

It was not an act of survival. It was a cold and calculated move on Stalin's part to land grab.
 
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sgarg

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Well guys, the fact is that it does not matter what Putin said on this issue.

A State makes a pact with another State with a different political orientation. This has happened frequently in history. Such a pact does not mean a dilution of principles.

USSR was full of contradictions, that is why it failed. The most important thing is to have a vibrant economy. People should have basic freedoms. The basic freedoms are necessary for economic development.

However freedom does not mean to allow foreign powers unlimited sabotage. The activities of foreign powers must be curtailed.
 

asianobserve

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Well guys, the fact is that it does not matter what Putin said on this issue.

A State makes a pact with another State with a different political orientation. This has happened frequently in history. Such a pact does not mean a dilution of principles.

USSR was full of contradictions, that is why it failed. The most important thing is to have a vibrant economy. People should have basic freedoms. The basic freedoms are necessary for economic development.

However freedom does not mean to allow foreign powers unlimited sabotage. The activities of foreign powers must be curtailed.

Then (USSR) as now (Russia) the dream is still the same, the restoration of the Tsarist empire (never mind if affected Russian neighbors are already independent states).
 

sgarg

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Then (USSR) as now (Russia) the dream is still the same, the restoration of the Tsarist empire (never mind if affected Russian neighbors are already independent states).
I am afraid you are completely wrong. USSR was the opposite of Tsarist empire. None of the actions of USSR likens it to Tsarist empire.

Russia can be likened to Tsarist empire if you so wish.
 

asianobserve

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I am afraid you are completely wrong. USSR was the opposite of Tsarist empire. None of the actions of USSR likens it to Tsarist empire.

Russia can be likened to Tsarist empire if you so wish.

Well Marxism should be different from Monarchy but the USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around Russia and Russian nationalism. In the end the Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to further its national (Russian) imperialist ambitions.

That's why Stalin (then as Putin now) took every opportunity to recover every country that were formerly a part of the Russian Tsarist Empire (Poland, Baltic states, Bassarabia, and it even attempted to get back Finland).
 
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sgarg

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Well Marxism should be different from Monarchy but the USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around Russia and Russian nationalism. In the end the Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to further its national (Russian) imperialist ambitions.

That's why Stalin (then as Putin now) took every opportunity to recover every country that were formerly a part of the Russian Tsarist Empire (Poland, Baltic states, Bassarabia, and it even attempted to get back Finland).
Can you support your argument with proof??

USSR never behaved like Tsarist empire. We fondly remember USSR building India's industrial infrastructure. We have never seen any Tsarist king do that. USSR had a lot of pluses but it lost the war due to economic problems.
 

pmaitra

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Well Marxism should be different from Monarchy but the USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around Russia and Russian nationalism. In the end the Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to further its national (Russian) imperialist ambitions.
  • USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around everything that was against Russian nationalism.
  • Lenin was a Russophobe and did all he could to supress Russian nationalism, along with other nationalisms.
  • Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to suppress its national (Russian) imperialists. One should study the fate of Kolchak, and his supporters, before making claims. The Soviet distrust for Russian nationalists was so severe, that even Stalin carried out his purges, where, he not only eliminated the criminals and racketeers, but also those that were true nationalists.
  • In the end (or closer to the end of USSR), it was Lenin, who was often accused by Russian nationalists as Russophobe. Many Russians began to dislike Lenin during the Glasnost era, due to the fact that Lenin destroyed a major part of the Russian nationalism.
  • Lenin is also accused of working for the British, and it is no secret that he lived and incubated the revolution while sitting in Britain.


That's why Stalin (then as Putin now) took every opportunity to recover every country that were formerly a part of the Russian Tsarist Empire (Poland, Baltic states, Bassarabia, and it even attempted to get back Finland).
  • It was Lenin who gave freedom to Finland, otherwise, the Nationalists were ready for a bloody reconquest of Finland. It is true, however, Stalin did want to get Finland back, but that should not be attributed as a general characteristic of Bolsheviks, Marxists, or even the USSR.
  • Russia (RF) believes that historical Russian lands and Russian people, who were arbitrarily divided into republics by the Bolsheviks rightfully deserve to live under one nation. This is true, especially in case of Ukraine, as it is not really a country, but one of the three main pillars of the Russian nation.

@Razor, correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

P.S.: Just countering the points. Not trying to convince anyone.
 
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Razor

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I don't believe you really read about the Secret Protocol in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact or understood it. The USSR did not just appease Hitler there, it actively colluded and participated with Hitler redrawing Europe by annexing Poland (they partitioned it after they both invaded it) and the Baltic States (that went to the USSR).
I had read it before.
Your interpretation may differ from mine, though.
Nazi Germany considered the Brits to be equal to them. And at the same time considered Slavs to be Sub-human. And essentially wanted to sub-due the Slavs. Also there is nothing in Britain to make it valuable enough to be conquered. SU on the other is a treasure trove.
Not to mention the SU was still a peasant nation and not industrialized.
So saying that "it was not an act of survival", is not true.
The SU did what it could and tried to make profit out of it. Good for them.

Again, it should be clear to you that Putin is once again making his own fairy tale. As I said the Soviets were not passive partners of Hitler in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The USSR was an active partner there as it allowed it to absorb large swaths of Poland and swallow the Baltic states.

It was not an act of survival. It was a cold and calculated move on Stalin's part to land grab.
"USSR was an active partner": Yes, of course. They did what it took to survive. Besides Polans is not saint. Poland is an historical enemy of Russia.
 
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Razor

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Well Marxism should be different from Monarchy but the USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around Russia and Russian nationalism.
Not really true.
The SU was bad for Russians. And it initially weakened the power controlling the Eurasian region, which seems to have been the intention of the West in funding the Bolshevik revolution.
Later this power controlling Eurasia strengthened due to the efforts of Stalin. Reason why Stalin is still respected in Russia and so much hated by everyone else
Even later, it almost destroyed Russia and nearly made it a powerless vassal in the 90s.
Now this power has climbed back into at least regional significance, thanks to Putin. Reason why Putin is so much loved in Russia and so much hated and demonized elsewhere.

In the end the Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to further its national (Russian) imperialist ambitions.

That's why Stalin (then as Putin now) took every opportunity to recover every country that were formerly a part of the Russian Tsarist Empire (Poland, Baltic states, Bassarabia, and it even attempted to get back Finland).
"In the end" ?
What end ?
Also, "then as Putin now" : When did Putin attack Baltics, Poland, Finland etc ?
Your last 2 sentences don't make much sense.
 
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asianobserve

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  • USSR really was a behemoth driven by and centered around everything that was against Russian nationalism.
  • Lenin was a Russophobe and did all he could to supress Russian nationalism, along with other nationalisms.
  • Soviets used internationalist communist movement (Marxism) to suppress its national (Russian) imperialists. One should study the fate of Kolchak, and his supporters, before making claims. The Soviet distrust for Russian nationalists was so severe, that even Stalin carried out his purges, where, he not only eliminated the criminals and racketeers, but also those that were true nationalists.
  • In the end (or closer to the end of USSR), it was Lenin, who was often accused by Russian nationalists as Russophobe. Many Russians began to dislike Lenin during the Glasnost era, due to the fact that Lenin destroyed a major part of the Russian nationalism.
  • Lenin is also accused of working for the British, and it is no secret that he lived and incubated the revolution while sitting in Britain.



  • It was Lenin who gave freedom to Finland, otherwise, the Nationalists were ready for a bloody reconquest of Finland. It is true, however, Stalin did want to get Finland back, but that should not be attributed as a general characteristic of Bolsheviks, Marxists, or even the USSR.
  • Russia (RF) believes that historical Russian lands and Russian people, who were arbitrarily divided into republics by the Bolsheviks rightfully deserve to live under one nation. This is true, especially in case of Ukraine, as it is not really a country, but one of the three main pillars of the Russian nation.

@Razor, correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

P.S.: Just countering the points. Not trying to convince anyone.

You are mostly right about Lenin as he was more or less a genuine Marxist. But all succeeding Soviet Premiers especially Stalin were driven by the quest to recover Russia's Tsarist dominion. I see Putin as a true successor (at least in spirit) to Stalin and not Lenin.
 
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pmaitra

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You are mostly right about Lenin as he was more or less a genuine Marxist. But all succeeding Soviet Premiers especially Stalin were driven by the quest to recover Russia's Tsarist dominion. I see Putin as a true successor (at least in spirit) to Stalin and not Lenin.
If you consider taking control of only real estate, I agree with the Stalin part. I do not however see this "Russian nationalism" angle. That is probably just me.
 

Ray

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When an once acknowledged superpower is reduced to a moth eaten country, then successors in the moth eaten country, require to dream big so as to motivate its demoralised, despondent population.

The same is the case with the Islamists, who visualise the days of the Great Islam Empire that spanned half the globe. That is why they are on their jihad and the Turkish leader claims that it was the Muslims who first discovered America, without giving a shred of evidence and he wants Cuba to give permission to build a mosque.
That is why in Malaysia they are advocating the Huddood where thieves will have their hand chopped off with a mini guillotine.
Kelantan may resort to guillotine
The PAS-led state's hudud law technical committee, said to be facing problems finding suitable methods to amputate limbs of those convicted of stealing, is considering this "mini" form of the guillotine as an option.
Kelantan may resort to guillotine - Nation | The Star Online
Back to the glorious days of the Islamic Empire from its moth eaten state of existence.
 

sgarg

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You are mostly right about Lenin as he was more or less a genuine Marxist. But all succeeding Soviet Premiers especially Stalin were driven by the quest to recover Russia's Tsarist dominion. I see Putin as a true successor (at least in spirit) to Stalin and not Lenin.
You are just parroting unnecessary theories for confusing people. You only make accusations. You have no arguments.

USSR was based on an ideology completely different from nationalism. The West fought USSR on the basis of ideology.

The Tsarist empire was based on nationalism rather than an ideology. Putin can be called a nationalist today. His ideas are based on a Russian identity and a Russian nation. He is not opposing the West on ideology.
 

asianobserve

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I had read it before.
Your interpretation may differ from mine, though.
Nazi Germany considered the Brits to be equal to them. And at the same time considered Slavs to be Sub-human. And essentially wanted to sub-due the Slavs. Also there is nothing in Britain to make it valuable enough to be conquered. SU on the other is a treasure trove.
Not to mention the SU was still a peasant nation and not industrialized.
So saying that "it was not an act of survival", is not true.
The SU did what it could and tried to make profit out of it. Good for them.

"USSR was an active partner": Yes, of course. They did what it took to survive. Besides Polans is not saint. Poland is an historical enemy of Russia.

This reasoning falls flat in the face of the ground realities at the time. What are these:

1. The USSR signed a Trade Agreement with Hitler that saw massive amounts of raw materials being supplied to Germany. A lot of scholars agree that without USSR's supply of raw materials Germany would not have been able to put up the war machine she used in starting WW2 (invasion of Poland);

2. There were actually 2 Pacts available to the USSR in 1939, PAct with the Western Alliance and Pact with Germany. Guess which pact the Soviets chose? This fact alone will tell you that the USSR was not under pressure to give in to Germany;

3. The USSR in 1939 had the biggest army in the World. They could have simply warned Germany that the USSR will intervene in case it invades Poland; and,

4. Most damning of all, why did the USSR massacred thousands of captured Polish military officers and civilian leaders after it invaded Poland when it was under no compulsion under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? This only shows that all along the Soviets were motivated by a desire to get a large chunk of Poland (which was formerly part of the Tsarist Empire) than merely self-defense.
 

pmaitra

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Timothy Snyder's Historical Malpractice


In his article, the historian Timothy Snyder compares Russian President Putin with Josef Stalin unreasonably, missing facts from the history...intentionally?

Peter Lavelle, OPINION

  • One of the most rabid Putin-bashers on the scene, Yale historian Timothy Snyder is at it again, trying to scare the West into thinking Putin is on a level with Stalin
  • What Snyder really demonstrates, is that far from being a thoughtful or talented historian, he is a neo-con hack, selling a very dubious bill of goods to a gullible America, along with his friends at the leading neo-con peddlers of the same vitriol, the New Republic, and the Atlantic
  • In this response, RT's Peter Lavelle points out some of the flaws in Snyders logic
  • Russia Insider is just getting started with Snyder and his ilk. In our opinion, Lavelle is much too soft on him. Stay tuned for some serious Snyder bashing over the coming months. We promise you one thing: it will be entertaining...

If we are to believe Timothy Snyder, Russia's President Vladimir Putin should be placed in the same company with some twentieth century dictators, particularly Josef Stalin.

By profession Snyder is an historian, but what he writes in the New York Review of Books under the title "Putin's New Nostalgia" is not the mind of scholar at work. Rather, Snyder again demonstrates that he is actually worse than most western journalists writing about Russia and its role the world stage.

Snyder should know better.

Putin said something to a group of historians that rattled Snyder's cage: "The Soviet Union signed a non-aggression agreement with Germany. They say, 'Oh, how bad.' But what is so bad about it, if the Soviet Union did not want to fight? What is so bad?"

Indeed, Europe's two great totalitarian regimes joined in a temporary alliance and divided Eastern Europe among themselves.

It is common to come across the description of the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as "immoral," but realistically it should have been expected. This is how realpolitik works. States are not moral institutions, but they do have geopolitical interests. After all, Washington and its allies secretly plot and fund the overthrow of governments,some democratically elected like in Ukraine, as a matter of course – very much like the Secret Protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact!

Let's recall real history and not Snyder's malpractice of it: Stalin very much wanted to make a security agreement with Britain and France. The Soviet Union understood very well Nazi Germany's territorial ambitions in Europe and it did not want to face Hitler alone. But the west resisted and hesitated.

Stalin didn't want a deal with Hitler, but at the same time he sought security guarantees and Hitler made an offer. Stalin only bought some time before the Nazi juggernaut destroyed a great part of the Soviet Union and inflicted unprecedented human losses. Stalin thought in terms of national security (and personal aggrandizement), morality was hardly a concern for him.

If we assume there is a moral dimension to the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact as an historical event, then Snyder draws the wrong conclusion when he interprets Putin's words when he writes, "What it is about rapprochement with Nazi Germany that is so appealing just at the present moment?"

If Snyder took a moment to read some of Putin's speeches, he would learn Putin's Russia does not have any affinity with anything remotely do to with fascism. (At the same time Snyder and the U.S. State Department have no problem "palling around" with fascists in Ukraine).

Actually, what Russia sees (back then and today) is the West breaking international law, trampling on its own principles and gross hypocrisy. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was only possible because of the west's cowardly behavior handing Hitler Czechoslovakia (aka "Munich Appeasement") on a silver platter a year earlier. Stalin's Soviet Union only participated in the carve-up of Eastern European later when the West would no longer honor its legal and moral commitments to its allies. When the international order collapsed, it was a free for all. Sadly this state of affairs witnessed small and weak states suffer greatly.

It should be remembered that the inter-war Europe the state system was weak and the Western powers that designed the geopolitical system for the continent in the wake of the First World War ultimately were uninterested in defending it when Germany felt strong enough to shred the terribly unfair Versailles Treaty.

While Germany was tearing up treaties, Stalin watched the western powers sign off on the destruction of the sovereign state of Czechoslovakia. Does Snyder find this historic event immoral? Can Snyder see how Stalin saw Western behavior and drew the conclusion trusting the West was a pipe dream?

Then there is Ukraine. Russia has watched the west under the leadership of Washington invade, bomb, drone, and destroy one country after another in the MiddleEast. All of this has been done in the name of democracy and security. The same strategy and rhetoric have been practiced on Ukraine. The results have been horrific.

The West's participation in the overthrow of a democratic government in Kiev is unconscionable. But why speak of morality? This is statecraft and geopolitics.Washington's neocons (and presumably Timothy Snyder) are overwhelmed with their good fortune. Ukraine is in crisis and the Russians will bleed for years coping with a failed state on its border.

Snyder's cynicism would be understood and welcomed by Stalin. Both appear to be cut from the same intellectual (and moral?) cloth.

Snyder's antipathy toward Russia is well known. Why does he dress it in empty and ahistorical moralism?

He should finally make up his mind whether he is a scholar or a hack.
 

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