Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

pmaitra

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Yes, of course. That is understandable.
It wouldn't seem nice if the leader of the revolution was only (1/8) th Russian.


Well, yes. They are Russified Turko-Mongols. But to an extent they do maintain their traditions.




There is a difference between Ruskie (rrooskee) as in ethnic Russian and Rossiyane, as in a demonym for inhabitants of Russian federation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you refer to the latter.
The term "Russki" is used for both Slavic Russian or for anyone who is from Russia. It depends upon context. There are the words of a young woman from Tatarstan I know personally, not mine own. You are correct about Rossiyane.

Of course, the best persons to correct us would be @Cadian and @спецназ.
 
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Razor

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The term "Russki" is used for both Slavic Russian or for anyone who is from Russia. It depends upon context. There are the words of a young woman from Tatarstan I know personally, not mine own. You are correct about Rossiyane.

Of course, the best persons to correct us would be @Cadian and @спецназ.
As far as I can see rooski is used generally for ethnic Russians.
Indiscriminate use of that term (as in, for both ethnics and citizens w/o differentiating) is mostly by the Western media or the mind affected by that disease. (Note: not trying to insult or anything.)
I could be wrong, so let those to mentioned correct me if so.
 
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jouni

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It is understandable that Lenin was only 1/8th Russian. When have they ever taken any responsibility themselves? They either need outside leader or outside enemy, usually both.
 

jouni

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The term "Russki" is used for both Slavic Russian or for anyone who is from Russia. It depends upon context. There are the words of a young woman from Tatarstan I know personally, not mine own. You are correct about Rossiyane.

Of course, the best persons to correct us would be @Cadian and @спецназ.
Finns use the word "ryssä" basically the same meaning, could also be insulting to somebody.
 
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pmaitra

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It is understandable that Lenin was only 1/8th Russian. When have they ever taken any responsibility themselves? They either need outside leader or outside enemy, usually both.
The Russians (read Slavics) took the responsibility of liberating the Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes from the Vikin yoke.

Finns use the word "ryssä" basically the same meaning, could also be insulting to somebody.
It depends upon one's facial expression, especially if it sports a grimmace. Holds true for any word. :)
 

jouni

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The Russians (read Slavics) took the responsibility of liberating the Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes from the Vikin yoke.


It depends upon one's facial expression, especially if it sports a grimmace. Holds true for any word. :)
Yes, after Rurik taught them the basic things they had some good periods. Sadly now those times are only a memory for them.
 

pmaitra

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Yes, after Rurik taught them the basic things they had some good periods. Sadly now those times are only a memory for them.
Nope. If you want to learn Finnish history, you need to get out of Finland. If you want to learn fairy tales, stay where you are.
 

jouni

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Nope. If you want to learn Finnish history, you need to get out of Finland. If you want to learn fairy tales, stay where you are.
I am currently studying Finnish contribution to finding of America. There are some interesting, previously unknown facts.
 

apple

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Unfortunately in geopolitics, "right" and "wrong" are based on strategic gain rather than subjective morality.
What? British "appeasement" of Hitler was shorted lived, and ended with a war they won, while Stalin's actions alienated him from his future allies and lead to the war. You comparing two radically different and making moral judgments. Your reply makes no sense.

The quote I made in that post, with regards to Putin, was from the article originally posted by asianobserve.
So what?

Theory and reality are two different kettles of fish.

Marxism and Communism are not the same thing.
What you want to say is Leninism is different from Marxism.
 

pmaitra

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I am currently studying Finnish contribution to finding of America. There are some interesting, previously unknown facts.
It is believed that Vikings settled in parts of what would be Canada today. We can discuss that, but probably we should open a new thread on that.
 

Razor

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What? British "appeasement" of Hitler was shorted lived, and ended with a war they won, while Stalin's actions alienated him from his future allies and lead to the war. You comparing two radically different and making moral judgments. Your reply makes no sense.
Says who ?
Britain and America did what it had to (including initial funding of both Nazis and Soviets) and SU did what it had to to protect itself. No point talking about morality.
So you're wrong in your suspicion of Putin ever having said that.
Suspect Putin never said what you're quoting him as saying.
 

Razor

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It is believed that Vikings settled in parts of what would be Canada today. We can discuss that, but probably we should open a new thread on that.
I think he is just trying to troll and derail.

Earlier he told me he will show me this "unknown facts" and then in this thread (http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/64824-prince-ruriks-real-ancestry-5.html -- post 61 ) he presented some Norse Sagas :pound:

1. They are Norse sagas. Not Finnish sagas.
2. They are sagas. Sagas are stories, and he calls them evidennce. A good deal of sagas are clearly discernible as fiction, and most of the rest have no historical basis. It would be like saying that at a time the whole world was submerged by a great flood, because Middle Eastern stories say so.
 
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Ray

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What? British "appeasement" of Hitler was shorted lived, and ended with a war they won, while Stalin's actions alienated him from his future allies and lead to the war. You comparing two radically different and making moral judgments. Your reply makes no sense.

So what?



What you want to say is Leninism is different from Marxism.
Difficult to educate the uneducated.

Won't even waste time attempting so.
 

Ray

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Marx and Lenin's views contrasted

Richard Montague | Leninism
Lenin stood for state capitalism and argued that socialist democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person. Was Lenin a Marxist?

Marx and his co-worker, Engels, consistently argued that socialism (or communism, they used the terms interchangeably) could only evolve out of the political and economic circumstances created by a fully developed capitalism. In other words, production would have to be expanded within capitalism to a point where the potential existed to allow for "each [to take] according to their needs". In turn, this objective condition would have created the basis for a socialist-conscious majority willing to contribute their physical and mental skills voluntarily in the production and distribution of society's needs.

With the extension of the suffrage, Marx claimed (in 1872) that the workers might now achieve power in the leading countries of capitalism by peaceful means. Given the fact that socialism will be based on the widest possible human co-operation, it need hardly be said that Marx consistently emphasised that its achievement had to be the work of a majority.

Again, given their understanding of the nature of socialist society, Marx and Engels saw socialism essentially in world terms: a global alternative to the system of global capitalism.

In the very first sentence of his monumental work, Capital, Marx wrote that "the wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails presents itself as a vast accumulation of commodities". He then went on to define the nature of a commodity in economic terms as an item of real or imagined wealth produced for sale on the market with a view to profit.

Marx claimed the wages system was the quintessential instrument of capitalist exploitation of the working class. He urged workers to remove from their banners the conservative slogan of "A fair day's pay for a fair day's work" and to inscribe instead "Abolition of the wages system!" Throughout his writings, he repeats in different form the admonition that "wage labour and capital are two sides of the same coin".

Marx considered that nationalisation could be a means of accelerating the development of capitalism but did not support nationalisation as such. On the contrary, he argued that the more the state became involved in taking over areas of production, the more it became the national capitalist.

Marx saw the state as the "executive committee" of a ruling class. In a socialist society, he affirmed, the state, as the government of people, would give way to a simple, democratic "administration of things".

Marx's vision of a socialist society can be fairly summed up as a world-wide system of social organisation based on the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by, and in the interests of, the whole community.

In other words, a universal classless, wageless and moneyless society wherein human beings would voluntarily contribute in accordance with their mental and/or physical abilities to the production and distribution of the needs of their society and in which everyone would have free and equal access to their needs.

Lenin's distortions
Post-Czarist Russia was a backward poorly developed and largely feudal country where the industrial proletariat was a relatively small minority. To suggest that Russia could undergo a socialist revolution (as Lenin did in 1917) is a complete denial of the Marxist view of history. Indeed, following the news of the Bolshevik coup, the Socialist Standard (official organ of the Socialist Party of Great Britain) wrote:

"Is this huge mass of people, numbering about 160 million and spread over eight and a half million of square miles, ready for Socialism? Are the hunters of the north, the struggling peasant proprietors of the south, the agricultural wage slaves of the Central Provinces and the wage slaves of the towns convinced of the necessity for, and equipped with the knowledge requisite for the establishment of the social ownership of the means of life? Unless a mental revolution such as the world has never seen before has taken place or an economic change immensely more rapidly than history has ever recorded, the answer is 'NO!'"(August 1918).

Lenin persistently rejected the view that the working class was capable of achieving socialism without leaders. He argued that trade union consciousness represented the peak of working class consciousness. Socialism, he affirmed, would be achieved by a band of revolutionaries at the head of a discontented but non-socialist-conscious working class. The Bolshevik "revolution" was a classic example of Leninist thinking; in fact it was a coup d'état carried out by professional revolutionaries and based on the populist slogan, "Peace, Land and Bread". Socialism was not on offer, nor could it have been.

It is true that Lenin and his Bolsheviks wrongly thought their Russian coup would spark off similar revolts in Western Europe and, especially, in Germany. Not only was this a monumental political error, but it was based on Lenin's erroneous perception of socialism and his belief that his distorted conceptions could be imposed on the working class of Western Europe which was, generally, better politically organised and more sophisticated than the people of Russia.

Probably for practical purposes – since no other course was open to them – Lenin and his Bolsheviks could not accept the Marxian view that commodity production was an identifying feature of capitalism. Following the Bolshevik seizure of power, the production of wealth in the form of commodities was the only option open to the misnamed Communist Party. Commodity production continued and was an accepted feature of life in "communist" Russia, just as it is today following the demise of state-capitalism in the Russian empire.

Back in 1905 Stalin, in a pamphlet (Socialism or Anarchism), argued the Marxian view that "future society would be . . . wageless . . . classless . . . moneyless", etc. In power the Bolsheviks proliferated the wages system making it an accepted feature of Russian life. Wage differentials, too, were frequently greater than those obtaining in western society. Surplus value, from which the capitalist class derives its income in the form of profit, rent and interest became the basis of the bloated lifestyles of the bureaucracy. A contrasting feature of state-capitalism and "private" capitalism is that, in the latter, the beneficiaries of the exploitation of labour derive their wealth and privilege from the direct ownership of capital whereas, in the former, wealth and privilege were the benefits of political power.

There is a wide chasm between the views of Marx and those of Lenin in their understanding of the nature of socialism, of how it would be achieved and of the manner of its administration. Marx sees socialism as the abolition of ownership (implied in the term "common ownership"). His vision is a stateless, classless and moneyless society which, by its nature, could only come to fruition when a conscious majority wanted it and wherein the affairs of the human family would be democratically administered. A form of social organisation in which people would voluntarily contribute their skills and abilities in exchange for the freedom of living in a society that guarantees their needs and wherein the poverty, repression and violence of capitalism would have no place.

Lenin's simple definition of socialism is set out in his The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It (September 1917): "Socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the whole people". Lenin knew that he was introducing a new definition of socialism here which was not to be found in Marx but claimed that there were two stages after capitalism: socialism (his new definition) and communism (what Marxists had always understood by socialism: a stateless, classless, moneyless, wageless society). However, so new was this definition that other Bolshevik publications of the same period still argued that "socialism is the highest form of social organisation that mankind can achieve".

Marx would obviously have concurred with the latter claim but, as has been shown, would have rejected completely the suggestion that socialism had anything to do with nationalisation or that it could be established over the heads of the working class.

Obviously Lenin was being consistent with his "nationalisation" theory when, in Left-Wing Childishness (May 1918) he proclaimed the need for state capitalism. It is true, of course, that the situation in Russia left the Bolsheviks no alternative to the development of capitalism under the aegis of the state. The fact is, however, that the concept of state capitalism is wholly consistent with Lenin's misunderstanding of the nature of socialism. State capitalism achieved a permanent place in the Russian economy and Communist Party propaganda exported it as being consistent with the views of Marx.

The contrast between Marx and Lenin is demonstrated most strikingly in Lenin's view of the nature and role of the state. Whereas Marx saw the state as a feature of class society that would be used by a politically-conscious working class to bring about the transfer of power and then be abolished, Lenin saw the state as a permanent and vital part of what he perceived as socialism, relegating Marx's abolition of the state to the dim and distant future in communism while in the meantime the state had to be strengthened. The Russian state and its coercive arms became a huge, brutal dictatorship under Lenin, who set the scene for the entry of the dictator, Stalin.

That Lenin approved of dictatorship, even that of a single person, was spelt out clearly in a speech he made (On Economic Reconstruction) on the 31 March 1920:

"Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy (sic!) is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed" (Lenin: Collected Works, Vol. 17, p. 89. First Russian Edition).

This statement alone should be enough to convince any impartial student of Marxism that there was no meeting of minds between Marx and Lenin.

Russia, after the Bolshevik coup and the establishment of state capitalism became a brutal, totalitarian dictatorship. The fact that that its new ruling class exploited the working class through its political power instead of economic power meant that the workers were denied the protection of independent organisations such as trade unions or political organisations.

The western media, particularly oblivious to the implications of communism even as defined sometimes in their dictionaries, frequently drew attention to the poverty of the Russian workers. Conversely, and correctly, it also drew attention to the privileged and opulent lifestyles of the "communist" bosses. The same media, apparently without any sense of contradiction, was telling the public in the western world what the "Communist"-controlled media were telling workers in the Russian empire: that Russia represented the Marxian concept of a "classless" society.

The litmus test of the existence of "communism" for western journalists was recognition of the claim, by a state or a political party, that is was either "socialist" or "communist". Similar claims by such states and parties to be "democratic" was never given the slightest credibility. It might be argued that those who rejected the "democratic" claim knew a little about democracy whereas they appear to know nothing whatsoever about socialism.

The contradiction between the views of Marx and Lenin set out above relate to fundamental issues. Inevitably, however, they formed the basis for numerous other conflicts of opinion between Marxism and Leninism. In the light of these basic contradictions, it is absurd and dishonest to claim that there is any compatibility between Marx's concept of a free, democratic socialist society and the brutal state capitalism espoused by Lenin. Journalists, especially, should be in no doubt about the interests they serve when they promulgate the lie that Marxism or socialism exists anywhere in the world.

Richard Montague
Marx and Lenin's views contrasted | The Socialist Party of Great Britain
The Difference Between Marxism, Leninism and Maoism
INFORMATIVE ARTICLE - Paul Reimer
Communism is an ideology that has and is being forced upon millions of people. After the 1917 revolution, Russia entered a state of communist dictatorship, led by leading revolutionist, Vladimir Lenin. However, modern communism is often attributed as an idea developed by the 19th century theorist, Karl Marx and his book he co-wrote with Friedrich Engels; The Communist Manifesto. However what is the differences between Marxism, which in Marx's day, only reached the status of a theoretical ideology, Leninism which forced its way into Russia and Maoism, which developed after Mao Zedong's take over of China?

Marxism is often considered the foundation of communism, which other theorists and politicians have grown their own versions of communism on. The root cause to why Marxism did not complete fit in the Russian and Chinese communist revolutions is primarily the circumstances and atmosphere, specifically the economy, in which these revolutions took place. Marx argued that "proletarian" (Marx's term to describe the workers) revolutions could only occur in fully industrialized and capitalist countries. He argued that, in such countries, workers would eventually release they are toiling for their employers benefit and overthrow the employers. Then some among the workers would become the new exploiters and after much repetition, the workers would enforce a communist state.

According to Marx, countries like Russia, did not have the proper settings for a proletarian revolution. Lenin realized Russia was not at its prime time for a Marxist revolution due to its lack of an industrialized economy but rather a strong agriculture economy. Despite this, Lenin argued that an underdeveloped and imperialistic nation such as the Russia Empire, would be the first to turn communist. He modified the Marxist theory of a dictatorship of the urban workers to a dictatorship of the exclusive communist party. Once Lenin died his successor Joseph Stalin transitioned Russia from a dictatorship of the communist party, to a personal dictatorship.

Mao Zedong suffer the same conflict with Marxism as Lenin did. China at this time was far from industrialized, the ideal revolutionary society according to Marx, but had a much more rural peasant population. Like Lenin, Mao disagreed with Marx on the issue that a communist revolution could only be achieved in developed industrialized countries. Mao's variation of communism focused mainly on the gathering of rural farmers as opposed to urban industrial workers as Mao himself was originally a peasant pig farmer. Mao describes his version of communism as "Marxism adapted for Chinese circumstances."

Leninism and Maoism both utilizes the theories of Marxism, however fit such in the reality of their society.
Paul's History and Politics: The Difference Between Marxism, Leninism and Maoism
In continuation with my post comment that Marxism and Communism (Lennism, if you will) are not the same thing.
 
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apple

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Says who ?
Britain and America did what it had to (including initial funding of both Nazis and Soviets) and SU did what it had to to protect itself. No point talking about morality.
Who has ever denied WW2 started because of the Molotov- Ribbentrop pact?

British and American "funding" of the Nazi and Soviets :pound: :pound::pound::pound:

Your conspiracies are a whole new level of stupid. ISIS would consider you an insane, extremist, paranoid fantastist.

So you're wrong in your suspicion of Putin ever having said that.
I was questioning your quote of "Putin's", genius.

Putin says: " But what's bad about that if the Soviet Union didn't want to fight? What's bad about it?" and "Serious research should show that those were the methods of foreign policy then,"
Suspect Putin never said what you're quoting him as saying.
As I'll be explaining in another reply I'm writing to you, I'm sticking you on my ignore list. Not going to waste anymore seconds of my life reading your stupidity.
 

jouni

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Vladimir, watch this before you plan your next years annexations. Finland is no Crimea or East Ukraine. Well, you knew it already, didnt you?

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWRAOwCXOKM[/video]

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jXVE2bP9WhM[/video]
 
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