Prince Rurik's real ancestry

jouni

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Great argument point. Splendid.

Meanwhile did you read my post #32 ?
History is always an interpretation, thats why dna is the interesting part. Some even believe that Finland was actually greater kingdom than Sweden, but Swedes have written the history. Got to hand it to you guys, you know a lot more about our history, than I know about India.

On a serious note, there must be a reason why finns have the highest iq in europe. Thats why these dna maps of kings are interesting.
 
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pmaitra

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Except Rurik the viking (or Varangian, as the Slavs called him) was almost certainly a swede, not finnish descent. You should read the history and stop propagating false info.

He fought the finnish-ugric tribes and the slavs of the region (NW of Present day Russia) and was defeated by these tribes (hardly makes him the toughest viking :lol: )

Later the slavs and the finnish-ugric tribes started fighting among themselves and Rurik (along with his brothers) were invited back by these tribes to establish peace and order. And thus began the Rurikid dynasty.

Later the Finnish-ugric tribes and the varangian (i.e. viking) family of swedish stock were both assimilated into Slavic culture.



Maybe that's why the German term Finlandization came into being. Finlandization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I loved the red part. Yes, there is a lot of chest thumping, which is not uncommon. Which historian would want to paint his own kind in bad light?
 

Razor

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

History is always an interpretation, thats why dna is the interesting part. Some even believe that Finland was actually greater kingdom than Sweden, but Swedes have written the history. Got to hand it to you guys, you know a lot more about our history, than I know about India.

On a serious note, there must be a reason why finns have the highest iq in europe. Thats why these dna maps of kings are interesting.
DNA is tricky. I mean yes, you can accurately determine your haplogroups, as done in that page you linked earlier. But how do they determine country of origin. It is difficult to determine country of origin from DNA, if that's what you mean. For example I did a dna test and found that my Y-DNA is R1a1a. The highest frequency of this haplogroup is in Poland, followed by Russia, a few slavonic countries, Iran, India. This can not be used to determine country of origin. So I'm going to say DNA "maps" are indicative but not conclusive. So you'll have to take ethno-linguistic attributes and general history of the region into account too.
But yeah history is based on interpretation. I guess you still did not read post #32.
 

jouni

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

DNA is tricky. I mean yes, you can accurately determine your haplogroups, as done in that page you linked earlier. But how do they determine country of origin. It is difficult to determine country of origin from DNA, if that's what you mean. For example I did a dna test and found that my Y-DNA is R1a1a. The highest frequency of this haplogroup is in Poland, followed by Russia, a few slavonic countries, Iran, India. This can not be used to determine country of origin. So I'm going to say DNA "maps" are indicative but not conclusive. So you'll have to take ethno-linguistic attributes and general history of the region into account too.
But yeah history is based on interpretation. I guess you still did not read post #32.
Ok, now I understand why you are such a russophile. I read it, he could have been a Finn living in that part of nowadays Sweden. That time those lands were inhabited by Finns. Swedes lived in Skåne, close to nowadays Denmark.
 

pmaitra

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Ok, now I understand why you are such a russophile. I read it, he could have been a Finn living in that part of nowadays Sweden. That time those lands were inhabited by Finns. Swedes lived in Skåne, close to nowadays Denmark.
DNA tests done on the populations today cannot accurately reflect who lived where in the 8th and 9th century AD.

Even the DNA tests done today say something different.

From your second link:
We now know for sure because of this DNA testing that he was born on the Roslagen seashore in Sweden the only area in Sweden where the Y- DNA haplogroup N1c1d(L550) Varangian appears.
In other words, the Y-DNA haplogroup has not been found where the Finnic tribes lived. So, in all likelihood, Prince Rurik was not Finnish.

They came in boats across the sea, and Vikings are known for their sailing capabilities. They were driven back the way they came.

The only information about him is contained in the 12th-century Russian Primary Chronicle, which states that Chuds, Slavs, Merias, Veses and Krivichs ""¦drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them tribute, and set out to govern themselves".
The Finnic tribes lived in what would be northern Russia and southern Finland today:
 

Razor

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Ok, now I understand why you are such a russophile.
But I'm polophobic. :nod:
Well, I guess you could say I'm Russophilic.
But more importantly I oppose this expansion of NATO and the Western establishment and the globalization and so called liberalization/culture-destruction/distortion that comes with it.
I read it, he could have been a Finn living in that part of nowadays Sweden. That time those lands were inhabited by Finns. Swedes lived in Skåne, close to nowadays Denmark.
Could have. But evidence seems to suggest otherwise.
That book in post 32 seems to suggest that the Russians said Rurik was Finnish cause they found it difficult to accept that Rurikid dynasty was established by enemy kingdom of swedish stock. Finnish origin, at that time seemed more acceptable to them.
 
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jouni

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

But I'm polophobic. :nod:
Well, I guess you could say I'm Russophilic.
But more importantly I oppose this expansion of NATO and the Western establishment and the globalization and so called liberalization/culture-destruction/distortion that comes with it.

Could have. But evidence seems to suggest otherwise.
That book in post 32 seems to suggest that the Russians said Rurik was Finnish cause they found it difficult to accept that Rurikid dynasty was established by enemy kingdom of swedish stock. Finnish origin, at that time seemed more acceptable to them.

@pmaitra, should you make a new thread "Founder of Russia Prince Rurik was likely a finn":thumb:
 
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pmaitra

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jouni

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

DNA tests done on the populations today cannot accurately reflect who lived where in the 8th and 9th century AD.

Even the DNA tests done today say something different.

From your second link:



In other words, the Y-DNA haplogroup has not been found where the Finnic tribes lived. So, in all likelihood, Prince Rurik was not Finnish.

They came in boats across the sea, and Vikings are known for their sailing capabilities. They were driven back the way they came.



The Finnic tribes lived in what would be northern Russia and southern Finland today:
There are Ã…land islands, which means that crossing the sea was easy, so Finns lived also there. So it is pretty conclusive, thanks.
 

jouni

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Answers.com ik.jpg&imgSrcURL=http://www.blinde-kuh.de/wikinger/rurik.gif&flavor=AC http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx Y-DNA (37 markers) database including Rurikid princes and those males who are also suspecting their descent from Rurik (the 1st Russian prince, 9th century) There is a documentary evidence preserved in Paltamo from as early as the 1670`s that the old Finns used to sing about a king of Finland, who with a giant named "Calawa" and his sons subjected the whole of Russia beneath his rule. Oliko Rurik viimeisiä baltilais-suomalaisen merivallan kuninkaita Itämeren alueella? Rurik ei voinut olla kuka tahansa henkilö, tuskin Novgorodin heimot, suomalais-ugrilaiset heimot ja slaavit olisivat tulleet pyytämään häntä hallitsemaan heitä prinssinä. Merivalta mahdolliseti käsitti Baltian, Suomen eteläosan, Karjalan ja mahdollisesti Roslagenin maakunnan Ruotsin rannikolla. Näitä aluksi Laatokan rannalle vanhaan Laatokan kaupunkiin (Staraja Ladoga) muuttaneita sanottiin aluksi ruseiksi sittemmin varjaageiksi tai rus-varjaageiksi. Suomalaisethan olivat taitavaa merenkulkijakansaa, ro – soutaa. Olisikohan nimi rusi tästä peräisin ja koko valtakunnan nimi Russian? http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/asr.html Vladimir II Monomakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

pmaitra

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

There are Ã…land islands, which means that crossing the sea was easy, so Finns lived also there. So it is pretty conclusive, thanks.
Humans are terrestrial mammals. Whales are aquatic mammals.

I agree crossing the sea was easy, and I also conclude that walking across land was easier. So, now the question arises, where did those Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes come from?

Also, if crossing the sea was easy, why is it Prince Rurik's Y-DNA haplogroup was found only in that small region in Sweden and not in the regions of northern Russia, the original homeland of the Finnic and Finno-Ugric tribes?

I am interested to hear about the justification behind your hypotheses.
 

pmaitra

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I have created a dedicated thread with the relevant discussion so as not to derail the other thread.

@jouni, @Razor
 
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Ray

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The "Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project" of FamilyTreeDNA commercial genetic genealogy company reports that Y-DNA testing of the descendants of Rurikids suggests their non-Slavic origin.

The project began in 2006 when practically no one knew from whom and from where the Rurikid princes came from. It was also unclear whether the Rurikid princes were descended from a single male. The Russian Newsweek Magazine tested the first prince (Professor Dmitri Shahovskoy of France) who was found to belong to the N1c1 genetic haplogroup. The Russian Newsweek had later confirmed his result by testing two other princes, namely Prince Andrei Gagarin of Russia and Prince Nikita Lobanov-Rostovsky of Great Britain. Many new tests have been performed in this project. Although some of the princes do not share the N1c1 hapologroup, by all means we can now say that the N1c1 haplogroup was shared at least by Prince Svatoslav Igorevich (father of St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev, and the grandson of Rurik). All of the N1c1 Rurikid princes' haploptypes begin with (the FTDNA's standard) 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 x 14 x 18 9 9 "¦ .
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx
 

Ray

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I have created a dedicated thread with the relevant discussion so as not to derail the other thread.

@jouni, @Razor
It would be better if you gave the link so that one does not have to trawl through the Forums to search.

Of course, one could use the general Search.
 
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pmaitra

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It would be better if you gave the link so that one does not have to trawl through the Forums to search.

Of course, one could use the general Search.
Sir, this is the thread.
 

jouni

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Rurik was indeed a Finnish prince.

Already in the Russian Empress Catherine the Great (1729-1796) commissioned reviews of Russia's early history and the Novgorod City State came to the conclusion that Novgorod was founded by Slavic tribes and fiinish tribes cooperation. The thesis was published in German as a book in 1786. The founder of the city of Novgorod refers to the prince Rurik. Rurikin nationality has been fighting for hundreds of years, almost all European nationalities who can possibly have tried to prove Rurikin to be from the root of their people. Only the Finns have been mostly silent, even though the Rurik had been living in Sweden Finnish.

When the city of Novgorod Rurikin fortress began in the 1950s, archaeological excavation, was found from the use of a lot of broken objects, from or manufactured in Finland!

European archaeologists within the matter was dealt with at the time thoroughly, but Finland, to a large extent the Swedish-owned, pro-swedish mass media, the information has not ended up all the common people to read the last sixty years.

Later, in the 2000s, began Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, the purpose of which was to finally find out Rurikin nationality. Number of Russian Rurik princes was modern DNA testing, which the Rurikin haplo-group was N1C1, which in turn means the Finno-Ugric heritage.

DNA mapping, yet refined Rurikin ancestors were found in the island of Adelson, Roselag a, that is, in central Sweden on the coast, where wound the remains of the ancient .viking settlement.

Rurik did not have Swedish roots as 800 in the mid to Rurik went to Novgorod region. Sweden, has not even been founded. The name "Svealand" appears on old maps until the 1400s.

The Swedes are initially goths, the origin of which dates back to the present North German region, and before that the territory of eastern Ukraine.

Sweden has entered the Roman maps of the Goths-term residential area. names Götanmaaja Gothenburg, ie the land and the Goths Goths Castle.

But the whole of Scandinavia and northern Russia Roman maps marked with the Finnish tribes residential areas!

The Goths conquered the southern tip of the current SWEDEN 400-500-600 centuries and remained for hundreds of years , the current Skåne county, which spread a little later in the north.

So what happened to the current Skåne County jaGötanmaa-Counties, on the north side?

The Goths began to the southern tip spread towardsf the north ONLY FROM 1400-1500 centuries, while the Rurik sailed supporters Rusin Earth in 800 century.

The conclusion is that Rosenlagen was 800's strong Finnish tribal area. The area was also the Kainuu of the Kingdom of forest hunters. Kainuu Land Fjornjotrien led to the ancient royal house. Fjornjotrien Norwegian-Icelandic family sagas written in the title was "The country Finland and Kainuu Earth King". Kainuu to the Kingdom's family work -Kainuu, that the rest of the Finno-Scandinavia and Southern Finland, the tribal king of the municipalities.

The past thousand years the prince of the families in Russia have their own various family history of passing stories and have compared them to found scandinavian sagas the king of the genera. Rurikin father revealed their own investigations result in a half thousand years ago: Rurikin father was King Olav I Björnsson (Olavi I, the Son of the Bear).

The king of the home country is mentioned Kvenland, which means Land of Kainuu.

Rurikin father was, therefore, , a full-blooded royal!

Rurikin legend has proven modern DNA technology through the right. Hundreds of years old own family reports Rurikin backgrounds have been found to be true.

Kainuu The Kingdom has been in existence in some form vielä1100 century.

Proof of that Arab historian Al Idrisi writing in 1154 the Atlas of the World, "the king of Kainuu is a fief in Finnmark," that is, the current in the northern parts of Norway.

The Finns are, therefore, once inhabited the whole of Sweden, at the southernmost region of Sweden all the way down. In fact, the Finnish tribes have settled in at the time the Scandinavian regions. The earliest written record Kven in Norway northern fjords settlements can be found in vuodelta330 BC.

The Swedes do not accept Ruriks finnish history, but deny it, saying: "The Finns had no civilization before the Swedes."

The vast majority of our country's academic approved by the Finnish kings as a historical fact, but no one is not only openly campaigned in favor of it.

Would this be the time to correct this distortion of history, ancient history and the Finnish withholding ?
 
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jouni

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This photo is swedish version, but shows how coastland was inhabited in that area, sea was no problem.

There is evidence that Finns travelled at least all the way to Baghdad. Maybe they met some Indians there?
 
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jouni

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Ruriks haplogroup. Finns are worried about current crisis. We do not want Putin to destroy what we founded over 1000 years ago.

According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants. [5] Contrary to the Norman theory of the origin of the Kievan Rus' state, N1c1 is not widely found in Scandinavian countries, but is overwhelmingly found among Baltic and Finnish ethnicities. The N1c1 haplotype possess the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.

 
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Peter

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Re: 50 per cent of Britons are GERMAN

Also Catherine the Great knew it, being a relative herself.
Catherine the Great was the worst person of Russia. She is the reason I started disliking Russia. How could a woman be so vile and cold blooded? However the Russians seem to worship her as a national heroine.
 

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