Portuguese navy ship to reach Goa on Nov 12

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I hope we wil exhibit our aircraft carriers & show ur metal
Yes that is the way to show our patriotism and display our strengths so that they know which side of the bread is buttered.

Welcome them with such hardware and make them feel that India is not today as it was sometimes back when they ruled the roost!

A left handed 'compliment'.
 

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
I don't understand why there is so much angst against Voscoda Gama's arrival, discovery of Sea route to India is not a bad thing. Discovery of Sea route to India was a momentous movement, it easily linked India with the west. This brought great opportunities and risks to India, too bad for the country that Indian rulers at that time were incapable of either utilizing the opportunity or warding off the threat. But that doesn't mean the discovery of sea route is a bad thing.
Would you guys have preferred India to have hid itself away from rest of the world, while Europe was developing at breakneck speed?
What the Iberian explorers did in the 15th and 16th century CE was merely restoring ruptured trade links,both maritime and land based,which are centuries old.Excavations in Muzri and Pattanam in kerala reveals India's extensive maritime trade relations with Rome, Greece and Persia.India's maritime trade with east Asia was so extensive most of classical indianized states in south east Asia emerged in places which were traditional resting points of indian merchant ship on their way to China.The Choza-srivijaya(based in malayan archipelago)conflict resulted due to the interference of these states i Chozan India's direct trade relations with Song China.

Far from hiding from the rest of the word,India was the throbbing heart of the trade between major maritime civilizations.

The romantic notion of swashbuckling explorer sailing to the ends of the world for trade and adventure hides the well chronicled records of a bloody history they left in their wake, in the lands they visited(including India).Portugal has every right to celebrate in its moment of reckoning,but why drag us into into something that for us represents not glory but gore.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,876
Likes
48,566
Country flag
I don't understand why there is so much angst against Voscoda Gama's arrival, discovery of Sea route to India is not a bad thing. Discovery of Sea route to India was a momentous movement, it easily linked India with the west. This brought great opportunities and risks to India, too bad for the country that Indian rulers at that time were incapable of either utilizing the opportunity or warding off the threat. But that doesn't mean the discovery of sea route is a bad thing.
Would you guys have preferred India to have hid itself away from rest of the world, while Europe was developing at breakneck speed?

It opened the way for more invaders and hundreds of years of wars and colonial rule ending with a division of the land and the people.
 

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
The problem with your patriotism and self respect is that it is black or white.

Life, to you, is black or white.

Are you and wonderful patriotic and self respecting chaps 100% patriotic and self respecting?

Mull over that.

Since you have quoted so extensively from Hindu scriptures, may I ask you that all the Gods and mythological heroes 100% black or white in their convictions?

Recall the 'fairness' of Dronacharya towards Eklavya! If it was black and white and high on morality, then was it fair?

I could recall many more, but why hurt anyone over trifles?
If i were to say I'm a self respecting patriot,would you disagree ?...........Life is not about black and white,life is an enduring tale how we chose to live.we are what we choose to be.Ekalavya chose his path of life and embraced the raw end of it ,because ultimately he chose his master not the other way round.When you embrace an ideal with all the conviction where is the room for moral oscillation
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Political correctness is not a sign of weakness, but of pragmatic cunning.

Take the Kargil War. Pakistan had renegade the Lahore Bus trip and launched Op Badr (Kargil War), ''Patriotic and self respecting'' Indians would bay for Pakistan's blood and very rightly so. India should have, as per their way of thinking as I see here, attacked and dismembered Pakistan. Good idea.
But what did the Indian Govt do and at that time it was the super nationalist BJP in power. They should have knocked the hell out of Pakistan. But why did they not do it?

The answer is simple. It could not be done, given what was available in the Indian kitty. Half the equipment was in need of urgent overhaul and ammunition was running low and the incursion had to be halted and the invaders thrown back. That was the situation. Hence, no matter what the 'patriotism and self respect' quotient that urged a 'befitting reply' (whatever that means to the 'patriotic and self respecting' Indians) was not feasible and more so, with Pakistan being an irresponsible nuclear Nation and historically all wars being halted by the international community even before a 'befitting reply' could be give, Even in 1971, a 'befitting reply' could not be given, given the US Fleet steaming close.

That they did not pursue a 'do or die' patriotism would possibly, on this forum from some of us, qualify them to be the '' "dying to please Europeans" brigade.

I daresay that ABV and Indira Gandhi were not as patriotic as the next man Jack or is there a dispute on that too?

In short, emotions do not dictate the way foreign and defence policies are formulated.

In Somalia, the Indian Navy has a presence. It is there to protect Indian shipping and Indian nationals. It maybe known that India supplies a large number of merchant navy hands for all merchant navy lines. When they are on foreign ships and they are caught by the Somali pirates then why is there so much of hue and cry to get them freed? How do you free such sailors, if not by the use of your Navy. Surely, one does not expect some other Navy to be equally keen to do so.

To conform to the 'patriotic and self respecting' Indian Brigade, the best thing we should do is seal ourselves like Burma from the outside world since every Nation that we can trade with or send our people to work in, are tainted. And we should not even buy arms from such nations. Let us fight Pakistan and China with our own indigenous arms, even if they are substandard. I am sure our 'patriotism and self respect' will compensate for our lack of standard arms and ammunition.

It reminds me of my State Bengal. Jyoti Basu abolished the teaching of English in a charged fervour of super sub nationalism – a real patriotic and self respecting Bengali, some would say.

What was the end result? Unemployment and poverty!! Imagine getting an all India service knowing only Bengali! Can anyone say he was not a Bengali all the way? But would pragmatism not suggest that it would be necessary to know English and Hindi, if Bengalis wanted to survive in a country called India?

Little things please little minds!
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
If i were to say I'm a self respecting patriot,would you disagree ?...........Life is not about black and white,life is an enduring tale how we chose to live.we are what we choose to be.Ekalavya chose his path of life and embraced the raw end of it ,because ultimately he chose his master not the other way round.When you embrace an ideal with all the conviction where is the room for moral oscillation

I like your take on Eklavya.

How very convenient!

It reminds me of the way the political spokesmen are justifying the Raja case.

OK, Eklavya chose a guru that favoured another and decided to ensure that his shisya remained the best. But isn't Dronacharya a great hero of our mythology? How come he could stoop to this type of 'justice', which to the downtrodden would appear immoral. I try to be a fair man but this type of chicanery haunts me every time and I have still not reconciled! Maybe I am wrong, but someone could educate me on the morality of the whole issue of asking that as guru dakshina. I admire Eklavya. he did it without a second thought. A great man, if I may say so.

Indeed one must choose his own path and you are patriotic and self respecting in your mindset. But that does not mean that others are disloyal and are from the 'love Westerner Brigade'.

I am not an ex Army chap just to inform you. Those who leave the army before pensionable service and do not do the stipulated tenure are 'ex Army'. Those who do their total tenure and then go on retirement are classified as 'retired army personnel'. There is a small difference in the equation - self respect that you are tomtoming so long! To quit half way and to serve the country full term with all the ups and down has different connotation in the patriotic and self respect quotient.
 
Last edited:

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
Amidst all these redundant banalities,the question as to why India has to partake in the commemoration of Portugal's colonial legacy has not been satisfactorily answered or conveniently ignored.This grand apology for colonialism makes for entertaining reading,only if it didn't so wantonly represent the moral bankruptcy of certain kind of Indian intellect.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Banalities?

If you fail to discern the issues in the posts, then who can help you?

Just let us know what do you propose apart from not allowing the ship to dock and flutter a few black rags?

Will that change the world or India's approach to other nations?

Colonialism is dead and gone. It will never visit India again.

However, cosmetic show that has no meaning is not worth the anger.

If India is so concerned, then should we not impose and embargo on all things foreign of our colonial masters?

Let's do that.

There is no free lunches sadly.

There is no moral bankruptcy. There are those who are frogs in the well, who live in the past and have no eye on the future!

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

-- Omar Khayyam


Sorry, it was written by a foreigner, but isn't it sad that I have been taught to appreciate all good things of the world and not live in a gold fish bowl!
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
We are under the siege of neo colonialism some would say.

What are you doing about that?
 

Tolaha

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
2,158
Likes
1,416
I believe we should we should try to be in more friendly terms with the US. Having said that, I dont think we should have festivities to mark the 50th year of USS Enterprise in the Bay of Bengal!

Similarly, we should be very friendly with the Portuguese, but celebrating the event marking the beginning of Portuguese rule in India, is silly in my opinion. This was the rule that proved to be the worst example of colonialism compared to any other region in India.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I believe we should we should try to be in more friendly terms with the US. Having said that, I dont think we should have festivities to mark the 50th year of USS Enterprise in the Bay of Bengal!

Similarly, we should be very friendly with the Portuguese, but celebrating the event marking the beginning of Portuguese rule in India, is silly in my opinion. This was the rule that proved to be the worst example of colonialism compared to any other region in India.
I agree.

Have friendly ties but no celebrations.

Now, if they are celebrating, what should you do to ensure friendly relations and yet not allow celebrations?

And who are celebrating?

Not the rest of India, or are they?

Its some of the Goans. Not all of Goa!

Why are they celebrating?

What is their mindset?

What do you propose we should do with such Goans?

By the same token St Xaviers should not be on Indian soil.

Any takers?

If so, what do you propose to send St Xaviers to where he belongs and obliterate the names of all School with his names.
 
Last edited:

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
Your inability to discuss the real issues and post replies on the same,perhaps because of genuine paucity of replies,is further compounded by your tendency to condescend and your genuine lack of empathy for a contravening point of view.First you disparage freedom fighters as buffoons divorced from from reality and then go off on tangent about self respect and patriotism.If that was not enough you stoop to a new low and bring in 'religion' by inserting St Xavier and Christians in this debate,perhaps hoping SATA will take the bait and then to your delight turn this thread into a communal slug fest. How else can your posts be classified except as a string of banalities.

Your inherent prejudice towards a certain point of view and those who hold it dictates the nature of most of your response,irrespective of the context and content.Sadly this inhibits your ability to apply reason and perspective,the consequence of which is you try to compensate this void with annoying pedantry.
 

Tolaha

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
2,158
Likes
1,416
I agree.

Have friendly ties but no clebrations.

Now, if they are celebrating, what should you do to ensure friendly relations and yet not allow celebrations?

And who are celebrating?

Not the rest of India, or are they?

Its some of the Goans.

Why are they celebrating?

What do you propose we should do with such Goans?
I have never asked not to "celebrate" but rather not to "celebrate the event commomorating the arrival of a cruel 'explorer' on our shores"!

Instead of celebrating such an event, how about something like celebrating the day when India and Portuguese restarted their ties after the Goan Independence?

What we are currently doing now is celebrating a person who did this:

Excerpts from wikipedia:

Vasco da Gama inflicted acts of cruelty upon competing traders and local inhabitants.[20][21] During his second voyage to Calicut, Gama intercepted a ship of Muslim pilgrims at Madayi travelling from Calicut to Mecca. Described by the Portuguese historian Gaspar Correia as one that is unequalled in cold- blooded cruelty, Gama looted the ship with over 400 pilgrims on board including 50 women, locked the passengers, the owner and an ambassador from Egypt and burnt them to death. They offered their wealth which 'could ransom all the Christian slaves in the Kingdom of Fez and much more' but were not spared. Gama looked on through the porthole and saw the women bringing up their gold and jewels and holding up their babies to beg for mercy.'[22]

After demanding the expulsion of Muslims from Calicut to the Hindu Zamorin, the latter sent the high priest Talappana Namboothiri (the very same person who conducted Gama to the Zamorin's chamber during his much celebrated first visit to Calicut in May 1498) for talks, Gama called him a spy, ordered the priests' lips and ears to be cut off and after sewing a pair of dog's ears to his head, sent him away.[20]
The point that I'm trying to make is, going forward, cant we build our friendship with the Portuguese on a foundation stronger than this one!?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Your inability to discuss the real issues and post replies on the same,perhaps because of genuine paucity of replies,is further compounded by your tendency to condescend and your genuine lack of empathy for a contravening point of view.First you disparage freedom fighters as buffoons divorced from from reality and then go off on tangent about self respect and patriotism.If that was not enough you stoop to a new low and bring in 'religion' by inserting St Xavier and Christians in this debate,perhaps hoping SATA will take the bait and then to your delight turn this thread into a communal slug fest. How else can your posts be classified except as a string of banalities.

Your inherent prejudice towards a certain point of view and those who hold it dictates the nature of most of your response,irrespective of the context and content.Sadly this inhibits your ability to apply reason and perspective,the consequence of which is you try to compensate this void with annoying pedantry.
First of all, may I request you to have a civil tongue in your head when you reply?

As far as Freedom Fighters are concerned, I am well aware of their sacrifices. I come from a family that had many who fought for our Independence and were from the Anushilan Party of which you possibly would not know.

I have not only replied to your post, but very copiously. I have total regards for contrary views and I encourage the same. The Admins and Mods will vouch for that. If I were not so, then I would not vouch for honours to be given to OHimalaya, who to people like you should be treated as the enemy. I don't see people as enemy or to be disparaged. I observe from the point of view of acquiring knowledge and I daresay that OHimalaya has not been able to fill in the voids. So, that much for that canard that you fling at me.

What's the big deal you are making about St Xaviers and my contentions to that effect? If self respect and patriotism is what it is all about as you wish to emphasise ad infinitum, then do you think that it was self respecting and patriotic of Indians being subjected to the Goa Inquisition?

It is your lack of debating points that makes you cower under the guise that I am turning it into a communal slug fest. Why are you afraid to let your heart out or are you trying to use the fig leaf of political correctness that you so vociferously denounce? Goa Inquisition is a fact. It is history. Can you deny it and hunker down since you have nothing to offer? I stated that if self respect and patriotism means that we should deny all vestiges of our colonial past, isn't the Goa Inquisition also a part of our colonial past. Unlike you, I am not afraid to face history and facts face on. If history and facts are banalities and daydreams are facts, then I am guilty of having taken recourse to banalities! I don't bait because it is not worth my effort and time to bait. It is those who are inflamed that they alone are right and none others are those who take normal posts to be baits!

It is those who are handicapped in knowledge , facts and perspective who find others as annoying since they do not possess the acumen and expertise to comprehend the issues.

Pedagogues are more discomfiting that pedantry!

I take it that when you accuse me of 'pedantry', you mean Pedantic attention to detail or rules.
 
Last edited:

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
History is not premised upon what is accepted or discarded,History simply is.Being aware of and reflecting upon history should not tantamount to celebrate a sorid episode from our past,especially when its uncalled for.If this simple fact cant be digested,rather the whole debate is rendered hostage to unbelievable and incoherent rhetoric,what is one say than express genuine pity.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
It is petty minds who are afraid of the truth and facts of history!

Reflect.

However, one cannot change history nor force others to accept history as one perceives.

If some Goans are ecstatic, so be it.

There is no need for others to raise their BP and die in the bargain.

And yet, if they feel strongly, then instead of words, they should take action and let it be in the news!

One need not join their revelry.
 
Last edited:

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
What enlightened mind would it take to gleefully embrace a celebration of our nations tragedy and turn apologist when the folly is made obvious.
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
7,869
Likes
23,242
Country flag
It is perry minds who are afraid of the truth and facts of history!
Which is why slave-minded government of our country could have simply chosen to welcome a Portuguese trade minister to Delhi, sign a few deals with him and send him back like a business deal rather than choosing such a controversial and anti-national occasion to celebrate. You ask me not to live in the past but in that case why celebrate such an event at all? Why not have a simple face-to-face meet and get some deals and be over with it?

Today Portuguese military is useless piece of liability even in Europe except for providing additional cannon fodder for US and that's the reason why they're stuck together in one alliance called NATO. Apart from UK, France and Germany, the rest entire Western Europe is simply armed with shiny stuff and has no capability to withstand on its own. The CG of NATO is USA and UK alone as France prefers the independent tag being on and off the NATO ship from time to time.

We could do more justice by sticking to business (and hence forgetting our hateful past) than raise such a controversial historical tragedy to welcome our past brutalizers. A few wannabes don't decide the fate of entire Goa and hence their revelry is insignificant. Those who fancy Portuguese life so much and think that they're also "white skinned developed and sophisticated Europeans" can try going there and living where they'd be laughed at for being so desperate. The entire Goan population has suffered too much and inviting a Portuguese ship that too for such a pathetic occasion simply reflects the slave mentality of Indian government which is embarrassing to the entire nation.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I

What we are currently doing now is celebrating a person who did this:



The point that I'm trying to make is, going forward, cant we build our friendship with the Portuguese on a foundation stronger than this one!?
We can.

But then, should we not have removed the traces of such cruelty and sent the body to Portugal once Goa was liberated.

And should we not have banned the Colleges and School flaunting the name of St Xaviers so that the sad memories are not encased forever in our memory?

It is a case of crying over spilt milk!
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Anyway no more from me.

Enough said!


What is the use of impotent ranting?

The country will do what it wants, with or without us!
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top