Portuguese navy ship to reach Goa on Nov 12

[Rage]

^^ Modern self-imposed restrictions of idealism is not present in us either. An enemy is an enemy who is always an enemy and will always be one. And you know very well that there are more ways to destroy an opponent than mere war. China today still gets pissed off at Japanese PM paying homage to Kamikaze shrines of Imperial Japan era. If they can do something that old, why can we make it a point to keep our dignity high? Fisheries and mining is good in most mediterranean states and being a southern Europe forte, we can enhance ties in these areas with any of them.

Even if I accept that we should forget them of their previous generations, they should not be allowed in Goa. There are so many other ports for them to come, show their face and leave. Allowing them in Goa is like Israel welcoming Nazi generals.

History cannot be simply "forgotten" buddy. It is easy to say that but difficult to face it. Because history was there, present is here and tomorrow this present becomes a history. It is a chain that cannot be forgotten. We cannot start a war just because of historical grudge as that is foolish and I agree but we can at least maintain distance.

Off, marrone ! I ain't askin you to 'forget' buddy. We should never forget, for forgetting will only do injustice to those that died in the rebellion.

No, we should set it aside for things we stand to gain. Otherwise, if you follow this idiosyncratic rule, get yourselves out of the Commonwealth, have nothing to do with the British, the French <who occupied and ruled Pondichéry for a time>, and the Dutch <who ruled the Malabar coast>. You see where this is going ? Memory is selective, innit?

The Nazi-Israeli analogy is not synonymous, for the Jewish state was carved out as a homeland for Jews toiled and troubled by repression. By the way, I hope you're aware of 'neo-Nazis' in Israel.

Why not Goa? I think Goa is the best place for it to come, because the Goans today are even more virulently aware of Portuguese repression than anywhere else.

Funny, you want to distinguish yourselves from the Chinese and want to emulate them? China is not high on the 'cooperative partners' list of most countries, I assure you, a reason why it remains to this day, sanctioned by the EU.

Chinese protesters decry the massacres at Nanjing, but that doesn't stop them from sending warships to the port of Okinawa to conduct joint exercises on pirate fighting.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Is it just me or have everybody else here put on their "too arrogant to care for facts" blinkers.The sail ship is on a voyage to pay homage to a specific event from history may be matter of pride for portuguese,but a cause for great anguish for Indians.if things were seen in their proper perspective,the objection is to the fact that there is no necessity for India to pay 'Homage' to this event.Most of the rant about English queen and commonwealth seems to be desperate attempt to fudge the fact that the 'eager to please Europeans' brigade is unable to convince anybody,perhaps even themselves,Why India needs join this gala event.

If freedom fighter of Goa are outraged, then why are the upholders of India's Independence not outraged in hanging on to a colonial past by being a member of the Commonwealth as also hosting personage from our horrifying (if that is the word such people are hunting for) colonial past.

Perhaps my dear sir, the freedom fighters have forgotten 'Self Respect' is old fashioned these days.Your reproach of the freedom fighters is perhaps most timely,notwithstanding their sacrifice and commitment to a hackneyed ideal,these freedom fighters should have known India has moved on to far ahead to look back and be grateful.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Cuncolim's no to Goa conquest celebrations

MARGAO: Rallying under the banner of 'Utt Kuncoliencar', Cuncolim locals organized a protest meeting on Sunday to condemn the government "patronage" for celebrations of 500 years of the conquest of Goa by the Portuguese.

Speaking on the occasion, Kamlaksh Prabhugaokar warned of intensifying the agitation if the celebrations are not called off. "If the government fails to heed to our demand, patriotic citizens will march to the venue of the celebrations with black flags and disrupt the functions," Prabhugaonkar said.

Freedom fighter, Sripad Desai, said the conquest of Goa marked the height of oppression that Goans were subjected to by various foreign rulers.




Veterans back to fight Portuguese festivities

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

PANAJI, India: The Portuguese have come back to Goa, and the men who fought to drive them out of this former colony nearly five decades ago are mobilizing again to stop them.

The flash point for this admittedly less violent conflict is the celebration of 500 years of Portuguese influence over Goa, now a state in western India.

"How can anyone celebrate the arrival of oppressors?" asked Nagesh Karmali, a poet and spokesman for the Freedom Fighters Association of Goa, who still limps from injuries suffered from torture in a Portuguese-run prison five decades ago. "Freedom fighters have shed our blood to oust the Portuguese from Goa." The celebrations — and protests — began Friday with the arrival of the NRP Sagres, one of Portuguese navy's tallest vessels, exactly 500 years after Portuguese explorer-general Afonso de Albuquerque launched a military assault on the region. Goa, already an important port for trading in spices, horses and slaves, fell to Albuquerque and was ruled by Portugal for more than 450 years.

In 1961, Indian forces, supported by a small band of local rebels, captured Goa in a brief battle and incorporated it into India.

The ships' arrival Friday in the port of Mormugao was greeted with black flags of protest and nearly 200 angry former rebels and Hindu nationalists chanting, "Go back." "Instead of commemorating the arrival of Portuguese influence in Goa, the Portuguese government should publicly apologize for the atrocities meted out to native Goans during their 450-year rule here," said Raju Velingkar, a protest leader.

Antonio Sabido Costa, Portugal's consul general to Goa, said in a statement the ship's trip here "marks the celebrations of the arrival of the Portuguese to the Orient and extreme Orient, 500 years ago." He did not return calls seeking comment on the protests.

The Instituto Camoes, a division of the Portuguese foreign ministry, has also organized an exhibition on a Portuguese explorer and a film festival showcasing movies from Portugal and some of its former colonies, including Angola, Mozambique and Brazil.

The protesters said they would demonstrate against the film festival as well.

Karmali said the veterans saw nothing to celebrate.

"This is a conspiracy by the Portuguese government to influence the psyche of Goa. After a cruel colonial rule of 450 years, they now want to show us the better side of Portugal," he said.

Hindu nationalist groups threw their support to the protesters.

"We will stand by them at every step during the protest," said Subhash Velingkar, the local head of the Rashtriya Swyamsevak Sangh group.

Karmali called on the state government to boycott all the planned events, but chief minister Digambar Kamat said he had no idea what Karmali was talking about.

"The government is not aware of any such celebration," he said.

 

[Ray]

Is it just me or have everybody else here put on their "too arrogant to care for facts" blinkers.The sail ship is on a voyage to pay homage to a specific event from history may be matter of pride for portuguese,but a cause for great anguish for Indians.if things were seen in their proper perspective,the objection is to the fact that there is no necessity for India to pay 'Homage' to this event.Most of the rant about English queen and commonwealth seems to be desperate attempt to fudge the fact that the 'eager to please Europeans' brigade is unable to convince anybody,perhaps even themselves,Why India needs join this gala event.



Perhaps my dear sir, the freedom fighters have forgotten 'Self Respect' is old fashioned these days.Your reproach of the freedom fighters is perhaps most timely,notwithstanding their sacrifice and commitment to a hackneyed ideal,these freedom fighters should have known India has moved on to far ahead to look back and be grateful.

It is not arrogance that speaks.

It is being seized with reality that speaks.

I am not only anguished by the Portuguese, but by all invaders in our history. I would like to take action against them, but since they are dead I would like to sort out their descendants.

I blame the Left side of my brain for not responding to the stimuli from the Right side.

The Left side I believe the Left side has the following functions

LEFT BRAIN FUNCTIONS

Uses logic
Detail oriented
Facts rule
Words and language
Present and past
Maths and science
Can comprehend
Knowing
Acknowledges
Order/pattern perception
Knows object name
Reality based
Forms strategies
Practical
Safe

The Right side has the following functions:

RIGHT BRAIN FUNCTIONS

Uses feeling
"Big picture" oriented
Imagination rules
Symbols and images
Present and future
Philosophy & religion
Can "get it" (i.e. meaning)
Believes
Appreciates
Spatial perception
Knows object function
Fantasy based
Presents possibilities
Impetuous
Risk taking

Self Respect has to also face realities. Though the Right Brain may want to overrule, the Left Brain has to lead lest it comes to grief.

Take the example of Guy Fawkes (I mention this since I was reading an article on it). Wintour introduced Fawkes to Robert Catesby, who planned to assassinate King James I and restore a Catholic monarch to the throne. The plotters secured the lease to an undercroft beneath the House of Lords, and Fawkes was placed in charge of the gunpowder they stockpiled there. Prompted by the receipt of an anonymous letter, the authorities searched Westminster Palace during the early hours of 5 November, and found Fawkes guarding the explosives. Over the next few days, he was questioned and tortured, and eventually he broke. Immediately before his execution on 31 January, Fawkes jumped from the scaffold where he was to be hanged and broke his neck, thus avoiding the agony of the drawing and quartering that followed.

The Catholics of England were justified since they were persecuted and so they wanted to assassinate King James I, who was an Anglican and the fountainhead (as they perceived to be the fountainhead of the persecution). However, the plan went awry and England continues to be an Anglican country. There have been many attempts to change and yet it has never worked out. So, what should the Catholics of Britain do now? Hold a grudge and continue in their attempt to change Britain by having a Monarch who is a Catholic? I am sure they feel equally aggrieved as we feel of the persecution by foreigners of our ancestors. And by the way, just like the commemoration of Portuguese presence in the Orient, in Britain the Guy Fawkes Day is celebrated with fireworks right under nose of the British Catholics. And none cares! They only like to join the revelry and laugh it off!

There are things that can be accomplished and there are things that cannot be accomplished for a variety of reasons. However, the important this is the power to realise what can be done and what cannot be done.

When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel. Forgiveness is the only way to dissolve that link and get free.

To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.

My Left side of the Brain seems to tell me that I should have the power to discern what I can do and what I cannot do and it tells me that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words and cosmetic stuff cannot harm me.


As far as the comment on 'eager to please Europeans' brigade, I may add I was selected by Gen Bipin Joshi for an UN Mission because, to put it in his own words (with modifications for obvious reasons), "you are the only one who can sort out a whiteman".

 

[Ray]

The US backed Pakistan in all wars.

It has hurt our Self Respect and has caused a whole lot of agony.

So, should we ban them from interacting with India?

Russia has always backed us.

So, why this friendship with the US started by the BJP and supported by their activist sister organisations?

 

[johnee]

So 'Independent' India is going to celebrate the anniversaries of its conquest?!! WoW...!!! Maybe we should celebrate Jalainwala Bagh as well, invite the Queen or Prince or whoever, our very own Yuvraaj or Yuvraani can accompany them....

 

[S.A.T.A]

Our attempts to see the larger canvas must not shirk us away from seeing little things in their proper perspective and context.India has decided to 'forgive' and 'forget',which why its bemusing as to why India ought to be part of this 'Occasion to Remember'.If we have indeed forgiven & forgotten,why are we to celebrate its memory.

 

[Ray]

Is India celebrating its conquest?

The celebration is of the landing of St Xaviers, who is a Saint as per the Catholics, who are in sizeable numbers in Goa.

Does the report state that India is celebrating?

Periyar deified Ravan.

Does it mean that we don't recognise the DMK and AIDMK? And have a hate campaign against them?

Actually we can't.

The Left Brain tells that there will be another secessionist movement.

Acceptable by you, especially since Periyar mocked the majority religion?

The long and the short of it is that one has to be practical and must overcome emotions and see reality.

One thing one can note is that those who have not faced the times are the ones who are vociferous about patriotism. Those who have not seen war and will never go to join one are the most vociferous champions of war. They see a slight at every move. Those who have not seen colonialism are the most vociferous custodians of the freedom struggle.

Gandhi did not cross swords with the British through violence or by badmouthing. He banished them through non violence and very pious and lofty thought. He shamed them to move out! Today he is world icon!

I do hope that all those who feel it is insulting to India that the ship is coming, will put their money where their mouth is and go and join the protests and let us know how it went!

And to use Ahmedsid's signature signing off of posts - God Speed!

 

[S.A.T.A]

If freedom fighters like Gandhi and the rest had chosen to remain practical and not given to such emotions like self respect,then all us would have been still saluting the Union jack,i'm sure some of us would have been happy nevertheless.Rest assured if left to Gandhi, like those aging freedom fighters in Goa,he wouldn't be waiting in Mormugao to receive the ship.One thing i too have come to understand is self respect and patriotism does not exist because one is Indian by birth or blood.No amount of brain storming will help if your heart is not in the right place................For those joining the feast and festivities,make sure the salt that went into the food is portuguese.

 

[Ray]

In other words, all self respecting and patriotic Indians should be at the Goa docks protesting.

Good point.

But why leave it to the geriatrics? Let the young blood pick up the baton! Especially those who actually understand the meaning of patriotism and self respect and are being articulate about the same.

Hope to hear from such self respecting Indians who go there and who are members here. Will revive others' patriotic fervour I am sure.

I am sure they will also go to Kashmir and other areas where their is insurrection to protect the Motherland.

Such people are really needed, but rarely seen!

Those patriots and self respecting Indians who are here and do not go would be merely patriotic on forums and that does not count in the rating of patriotism and vigour for self respect!

 

[Ray]

I try to be as patriotic as I can.

Life has tested me many a time and I have not failed, even at the risk of my life.

However I am guided by this saying and it is there in many offices in the Army:

God,

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Ray]

"The black and white thinking of Codependence causes us to either keep the baby in the dirty bath water or throw out both. Discernment is picking the baby out of the dirty bath water."


- The Dance of Wounded Souls

 

[S.A.T.A]

So who does one have to be to count as a self respecting patriot,an ex army guy...........My dear sir I have been doing my bit by staging the protest and expressing my outrage right here on this forum,a message of protest read by all of India and the world.Its only that you have been too preoccupied with delusional rhetoric's to see it.isn't it true that say a "pen is mightier than the sword".

 

[Tshering22]

Off, marrone ! I ain't askin you to 'forget' buddy. We should never forget, for forgetting will only do injustice to those that died in the rebellion.

No, we should set it aside for things we stand to gain. Otherwise, if you follow this idiosyncratic rule, get yourselves out of the Commonwealth, have nothing to do with the British, the French <who occupied and ruled Pondichéry for a time>, and the Dutch <who ruled the Malabar coast>. You see where this is going ? Memory is selective, innit?

The Nazi-Israeli analogy is not synonymous, for the Jewish state was carved out as a homeland for Jews toiled and troubled by repression. By the way, I hope you're aware of 'neo-Nazis' in Israel.

Why not Goa? I think Goa is the best place for it to come, because the Goans today are even more virulently aware of Portuguese repression than anywhere else.

Funny, you want to distinguish yourselves from the Chinese and want to emulate them? China is not high on the 'cooperative partners' list of most countries, I assure you, a reason why it remains to this day, sanctioned by the EU.

Chinese protesters decry the massacres at Nanjing, but that doesn't stop them from sending warships to the port of Okinawa to conduct joint exercises on pirate fighting.

Even an enemy is someone we can learn from and especially from China. Our self-imposed restrictions and intellectualism that leads to meaningless political correctness is a matter of shame and insult to the souls of soldiers who die to protect our nation selflessly. One such example is the traitors called "AMAN KI ASHA" brigade. Another brigade is "dying to please Europeans" brigade. That case of 'neo-Nazis' in Israel was a minor one and I am familiar with it. What's so different? India has local cells of Indians joining Jihad against the very nation. This sort of strange stuff happens everywhere. But then as a state and as a nation, it is our responsibility to crush it and throw it out.

PLAN involved in Pirate fighting is for their own ships as well since the problem of piracy is all over and a lot of Chinese trade ships pass through Okinawa region. It is in no way comparable to the "always ready to appease enemy" approach that we Indians have. We Indians are the only ones with such suicidal political correctness on this planet and that includes inviting scoundrels like Musharaf despite knowing him to be the cause of Kargil war.

Even though we've nothing to do with Somalia still our Navy also patrols Gulf of Aden. This is solely for protecting self interest. What self interest are we protecting inviting the torturers of Goa after half a century back? We're only insulting the spirit of those who were massacred by these scumbags.

For me and many other Indians, national pride is more than a few extra bucks that we can earn from any other country. Portuguese are coming to India to celebrate their conquest of Goa? What insane sort of weakness is this that India's invited them for such a crazy idea?!! If it was Portuguese minister coming to Delhi for trade, I won't have said anything but this!? And what shocks me is that you're even supporting this! ==no+=way==

 

[Rahul92]

I hope we wil exhibit our aircraft carriers & show ur metal

 

[LETHALFORCE]

why did the government ok this when they know it will hurt national sentiment?? Do we constantly have to be reminded of our colonial rule by our own government????

 

[Neil]

why did the government ok this when they know it will hurt national sentiment?? Do we constantly have to be reminded of our colonial rule by our own government????

may be GoI thought no one will cover the story....i mean it wasnt reported anywhere....it was a please all policy of GoI....

 

[Phenom]

I don't understand why there is so much angst against Voscoda Gama's arrival, discovery of Sea route to India is not a bad thing. Discovery of Sea route to India was a momentous movement, it easily linked India with the west. This brought great opportunities and risks to India, too bad for the country that Indian rulers at that time were incapable of either utilizing the opportunity or warding off the threat. But that doesn't mean the discovery of sea route is a bad thing.
Would you guys have preferred India to have hid itself away from rest of the world, while Europe was developing at breakneck speed?

 

[maomao]

why did the government ok this when they know it will hurt national sentiment?? Do we constantly have to be reminded of our colonial rule by our own government????

There is a reason behind sensitizing us to Foreign/Colonial Rule!! Its our "Future" to come if UPA returns next election!:happy_2:

 

[Ray]

So who does one have to be to count as a self respecting patriot,an ex army guy...........My dear sir I have been doing my bit by staging the protest and expressing my outrage right here on this forum,a message of protest read by all of India and the world.Its only that you have been too preoccupied with delusional rhetoric's to see it.isn't it true that say a "pen is mightier than the sword".

The problem with your patriotism and self respect is that it is black or white.

Life, to you, is black or white.

Are you and wonderful patriotic and self respecting chaps 100% patriotic and self respecting?

Mull over that.

Since you have quoted so extensively from Hindu scriptures, may I ask you that all the Gods and mythological heroes 100% black or white in their convictions?

Recall the 'fairness' of Dronacharya towards Eklavya! If it was black and white and high on morality, then was it fair?

I could recall many more, but why hurt anyone over trifles?