Portuguese navy ship to reach Goa on Nov 12

S.A.T.A

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The premise of comparing visit from ordinary citizens of Portugal or heads for business or pleasure with an event loaded with historic symbolism is entirely misplaced.I'm pretty sure the state of israel has no discomfort rendering hospitality to visiting Germans,but should it allow itself become a centerpiece of a celebration to Holocaust(even in the name of getting on with history)can such a befuddling rationalizing be even sustained.........Why do we become defensive when it comes our past,are we trying to please someone ?

Portugal is celebrating an event which is of enormous symbolism and pride for that Nation,an event that for us represents the beginning of a historic nadir,So who is celebrating what and why ?..........If India's relations with Portugal, or any other colonial power for that matter were to become strained unless we patronize their colonial aggrandizement,then such a relationship is not worth sustaining.
 

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adding: Both Pro and con assertions made here have only symbolic value if practiced to the likes of posters. India is great country and should move on the best way it can maintaining our dignity. Today Indians are more preserve within, but sooner or later we have to learn live as a global smart race. Its all about Geo politics, globalization, people to people contact with an excuse of something like that. One can/should argue how much this will make a difference to a common Indian since we have endless list of very our own/natural things to cherish or complaint. But still we can rediscover exchanges, opportunities to celebrate as an fearless Independent nation.
 

hit&run

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The premise of comparing visit from ordinary citizens of Portugal or heads for business or pleasure with an event loaded with historic symbolism is entirely misplaced.I'm pretty sure the state of israel has no discomfort rendering hospitality to visiting Germans,but should it allow itself become a centerpiece of a celebration to Holocaust(even in the name of getting on with history)can such a befuddling rationalizing be even sustained.........Why do we become defensive when it comes our past,are we trying to please someone ?

Portugal is celebrating an event which is of enormous symbolism and pride for that Nation,an event that for us represents the beginning of a historic nadir,So who is celebrating what and why ?..........If India's relations with Portugal, or any other colonial power for that matter were to become strained unless we patronize their colonial aggrandizement,then such a relationship is not worth sustaining.
I don't think Portuguese are going to have full on Celebration back home like they do on New Year. They are coming here spending their own money for something which they where in Past. The Portuguese past was not something for them to celebrate since they were sent back home humiliated and surrendered. Indian shores are today free and strong like never before, let them come here with their own menu and let us cater our own menu to them. Like we declared open commonwealth games twice, first by prince then by our own President the way we wanted.
 

S.A.T.A

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Whether grand or not,Portuguese are celebrating the events and have brazenly invited India to be a part of it.portuguese have every right to celebrate their history,amidst their own.Inviting India to take part in the occasion shows the insensitivity of the Portuguese(If this visit is indeed to mark the Vasco-Da-gama arrival) and our plodding along shows how insolent we have become regarding our own past.
 

ahmedsid

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Whether grand or not,Portuguese are celebrating the events and have brazenly invited India to be a part of it.portuguese have every right to celebrate their history,amidst their own.Inviting India to take part in the occasion shows the insensitivity of the Portuguese(If this visit is indeed to mark the Vasco-Da-gama arrival) and our plodding along shows how insolent we have become regarding our own past.
Have they clearly made it clear that they are celebrating Colonialism? If So, I agree we shouldnt have been part of it, otherwise, you are just crying hoarse, and need to look at it from a different set of glasses!
 

S.A.T.A

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Have they clearly made it clear that they are celebrating Colonialism? If So, I agree we shouldnt have been part of it, otherwise, you are just crying hoarse, and need to look at it from a different set of glasses!
One must be a complete idiot to be unable to decipher the loaded symbolism inherent in this event.If so, so be it.
 

ahmedsid

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One must be a complete idiot to be unable to decipher the loaded symbolism inherent in this event.If so, so be it.
Symbolism? Whats this? The Annual Freemasons congress of Idiotic subtexts?

We fought a War with them and took over Goa, and now we are not in the 60s or 50s or 40s anymore! The Worlds changed! We gave them back in the same coin! Humiliated them! And Now its time to Man up!

What do you propose? Sink the Ship? or Cut Diplomatic Relations?
 

S.A.T.A

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Symbolism? Whats this? The Annual Freemasons congress of Idiotic subtexts?

We fought a War with them and took over Goa, and now we are not in the 60s or 50s or 40s anymore! The Worlds changed! We gave them back in the same coin! Humiliated them! And Now its time to Man up!

What do you propose? Sink the Ship? or Cut Diplomatic Relations?
We fought them and retook Goa in 1961,are the Portuguese commemorating that too.Your inability to sense nuanced sensitivities is regrettable.Perhaps you have some words of advice for the Goa freedom fighters who share my disgust.
 

ahmedsid

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We fought them and retook Goa in 1961,are the Portuguese commemorating that too.Your inability to sense nuanced sensitivities is regrettable.Perhaps you have some words of advice for the Goa freedom fighters who share my disgust.
Rage is a Goan AFAIK (Do Correct Me If I am Mistaken), and he is not Insulted I feel!

If the disgust is there, you should have said the same when we hosted Commonwealth Games or when the Queen of England or The Prince or Prime Ministers come to India!! Now you may say its not the same, but then what is?

The Freedom Fighters have every right to be angry if we are Giving back Goa to the Portugese! But is that the case???
 
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Rahul Singh

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Portuguese navy's decorated ship, NRP Sagres will sail to Goan shores on November 12, amidst objections by freedom fighters against any celebration for completion of 500 years of Vasco-da-Gama's arrival in Goa.
Without any doubt arrival of Vasco-de-gama on Goa's shores, marks the death and beginning of things which can not be celebrated by Bharat in Bharat and by any Bharatiya. Now, to mark(symbolic celebration) the 500th year of the arrival of Portugal's hero(reasonably) the Portuguese navy is sending a military ship to Bharat. Wow! the Portuguese will not only be celebrating in Portugal but in Bharat too which to undo humiliation fought back Goa(a part of Konkan) by sacrificing Bharatiya blood.

I have read some posts, some saying this this happened and happening then why and what's problem in this and that? I can celebrate arrival of Vasco-De-Gama as an epic sail but not the prime objectives he had behind that sail to Bharat. By sending a military ship, Protugal is actually celebrating more the strategic achievements of that sail than any. And in my view the Portugal has every right to do so but but but in Portugal or anywhere except in Bharat.

World celebrates various events of World War 2 and various military parades are organised here and there to mark. But world has yet to see Poland hosting visits by German military(in any form) to Warsaw on 1 September. Similarly I don't know if France had or has allowed or hosted any type of German military formation to make their presence felt in France on 10th May. These examples are only two among many and speaks thousand things. So to me sending a military ship to Goa on 500th year says something and hosting it officially during that time is nothing but heart crushing insult to nationalists and freedom fighters.

Diplomatic and rest of the types of relations can be maintained without insulting freedom fighters who are feeling insulted because of the visit of this NRP Sagres.
 
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Ray

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"The tallest ship of the Portuguese Navy, NRP Sagres is visiting Goa as a part of its 2010 circumnavigation of the world," Portugal Consul General Dr Antonio Sabido Costa said.

The visit is to mark "the arrival of the Portuguese to the Orient and Extreme Orient, 500 years ago", he said here.

The ship and its crew will be received in Mormugao port by Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai, flag officer commander of Goa. It will be docked there from November 12 to November 16.

Portuguese explorer Vasco-da-Gama was the first person to have touched the land for trade.
Let's look at another Portuguese who had a great effect in Goa. Positive to some and negative to some. Yet, historically undeniable.

St Francis Xavier.

Francis Xavier has been criticized by some for his role in initiating the Goa Inquisition, and for his iconoclasm. The Inquisition was established to punish relapsed New Christians – Jews and Muslims who converted to Catholicism, as well as their descendants – who were now suspected of practising their ancestral religion in secret. In Goa, the Inquisition also turned its attention to Indian converts from Hinduism or Islam who were thought to have returned to their original ways. In addition, the Inquisition prosecuted non-converts who broke prohibitions against the observance of Hindu or Muslim rites or interfered with Portuguese attempts to convert non-Christians to Catholicism. While its ostensible aim was to preserve the Catholic faith, the Inquisition was used against Indian Catholics and Hindus as an instrument of social control, as well as a method of confiscating victims' property and enriching the Inquisitors.

I wonder why there is no such outrage over St Francis Xavier.

There are a large number of St Xaviers Colleges and School, from where merrily many of us, including those out here, passed out having had a robust education. And yet none have been discomfited over his connection with the Goa Inquisition.

When he died, he was first buried on a beach of Shangchuan Island. In 2006, on the 500th anniversary of his birth, the Xavier Tomb Monument and Chapel on the island, in ruins after years of neglect under communist rule in China was restored with the support from the alumni of Wah Yan College, a Jesuit high school in Hong Kong. His incorrupt body was taken from the island in February 1553 and was temporarily buried in St. Paul's church in Malacca on 22 March 1553. An open grave in the church now marks the place of Xavier's burial. A rich merchant, Diogo Pereira came back from Goa, removed the corpse shortly after 15 April 1553, and moved it to his house. On 11 December 1553, Xavier's body was shipped to Goa. The body is now in the Basilica of Bom Jesus in Goa, where it was placed in a glass container encased in a silver casket on 2 December 1637.


Why is there no outrage over the initiator of the Goa Inquisition being in India, even if such people do not accept that he was a great religious leader? Would it not be correct of such minded people to insist that his body be sent back to where he initially died and be nowhere on the territory of India?

Why this double standard of flamed outrage over a sailship NRP Sagres visiting Goa to commemorate the circumnavigation of the earth by the Portuguese to include India and mark the advent in the Orient to include India and the remains of St Xaviers being in India when he was the architect of the Goa Inquisition?

The reason, as I see it, is that such moves would be merely cosmetic and without any cogent gains except to assuage the egos of a certain section of Indian. I wish they could vent their ire on issues that genuine affect the country - namely the scams and ensure that the country is cleansed! That will be doing greater service than cosmetic outrage.

If freedom fighter of Goa are outraged, then why are the upholders of India's Independence not outraged in hanging on to a colonial past by being a member of the Commonwealth as also hosting personage from our horrifying (if that is the word such people are hunting for) colonial past.
 
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Virendra

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What is wrong with you? Not everything is to be taken as a threat.

We can't hold on to past grudges all the time. If we do, we'll have no friends left...

You'd think the Portuguese could do anything to us now? They were no match for India then, and they are no match for it now.

India and Portugal, as with Italy, have growing trade relations. With Trade largely one-sided in India's favour (over 90% of the trade turnover).

There are also over 45 joint projects in place in an Agreement signed for Science & Technology in 1998.

They're a good ally to have. Distant, benign and on a useful spot in the Atlantic ocean beside the continent of Africa, straddling Europe.

Let's tone down the venom shall we.
I agree ..........................
 

Tshering22

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@ Prateik:

I would suggest that you do more research on India's wars before posting stuff. For example, what makes you think that Portuguese are better rulers than us to rule our land? Goa is a part of Indian territory and not some separate country that no European has the right to rule. Do you have any idea how many pogroms were organized by the Portuguese to get Goans under their control? Do you know how many Goan temples and ancient monuments were destroyed before brute political force was used against locals to convert them? If you read or listen to those who've seen it through their descendants, your opinion would change forever.

Portuguese colonization was so brutal and inhuman of Goa that it would make British colonization look like brotherly love. Please research further on the matter and if you like, I shall post a very authentic source written by a Goan origin researcher himself about what Portuguese did to Indians in Goa. Don't make Europeans look so lordly in this century, friend.

Now coming to "sore losers" in China war; Let me clear the air for you. The war between PLA and IA was fought on 7 fronts apart from the civilians from Sikkim that took the initiative to harrow PLA soldiers down with nothing more than daos and sickles in their hands against PLA's automatic machine guns. Confrontational points at Thag La, Tawang, Wa Long and Nathu La pass are the most infamous one. At the end of this war, PLA noticed something; that our Indian soldiers despite being underarmed were ready to fight to the finish and unilaterally declared ceasefire.

The "crushing" defeat as often written in Cold War era articles from the West are to downgrade Indian Army's resolve. If you carefully read Maj. Dhan Singh Thapa (Param Vir Chakra recipient)'s description about the war, Indian Army despite being under-equipped by that treacherous scoundrel of a PM Nehru, won at 3 fronts out of 7 and PLA managed to win 4 giving them an edge only slightly. The difference was that PLA soldiers didn't want to push ahead but Indian soldiers were ready to be suicidally brutal that considerably caused a lot of apprehension to the PLA even though they'd won the front.

And these words come from a man who along with just 5 of his men killed 300 Chinese soldiers before being taken as a POW only to be returned later. What "sore losers" are you talking about? Blame the bloody Nehruvian idealism and Con-gress' spinelessness that continues even today. Indian Army fought against PLA in conditions that would make US SEALs blood run dry and British troops' spines frozen. Communists (so-called Indians) who are traitors living in our country still don't accept this despite eating Indian salt, living on Indian soil and call Chinese backstabbing as "Indian indecisiveness".
 

Tshering22

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What is wrong with you? Not everything is to be taken as a threat.

We can't hold on to past grudges all the time. If we do, we'll have no friends left...

You'd think the Portuguese could do anything to us now? They were no match for India then, and they are no match for it now.

India and Portugal, as with Italy, have growing trade relations. With Trade largely one-sided in India's favour (over 90% of the trade turnover).

There are also over 45 joint projects in place in an Agreement signed for Science & Technology in 1998.

They're a good ally to have. Distant, benign and on a useful spot in the Atlantic ocean beside the continent of Africa, straddling Europe.

Let's tone down the venom shall we.
This sort of silly forget and forgive mentality is the reason why we Indians are called weaklings and are taken for granted world around. Keep this up and soon everywhere around the globe there will be "curry bashing". Nothing is wrong with me; I am asking what is wrong with you fellow Indians. We cannot wage a war on historical grudge I agree; but Portugal is not such an indispensable nation without whose relations we will die out. Those losers cannot be punished today due to the sheer shallow reasons of historical grudge that we have but at least we can save some dignity with keeping away from them.

And you talk of friends as if our past is the only way to survive! Are we running short of countries that we'd die if we don't make friends with a bunch of loser countries? I mean what kind of slave mentality is that?! Every country wants to be our friend today and we're spoilt for choice. What significant contribution can Portugal do to India in any field compared to what our existing friends already can? Anything different from UK, France, Germany, Russia, USA, Canada, Singapore, Israel, Ukraine, Poland etc? I don't think so. They don't have a flourishing economy, their core industries are dead, no segment of their trade is uniquely known worldwide etc then what the hell do we have to gain from them?

Italy it is so obvious because we've an Italian ruler and I don't have any issues with Italians. Even then ancient Rome had trade ties with Asia.

What good allies are you talking about? The same "base" is offered by Spain that has a better economy, better development record and has not brutalized any part of our country before. Spain has more prospects even in defence being a part of Eurofighter consortium and therefore India is far more better off dealing with a country that has some significant part in a world-famous project in defence than a loser self-conceited former Nazi-style colonizer who deserves a painful end. A little bit of self-respect to retain is far more than a few extra billions. Portugal is not a country without which our economy will spiral backwards.

-------------------

Rage, most of the common Indian population of souther plains and coastal regions are soft-hearted and idealist-oriented (not intending to be offensive towards anyone or any community in specific but highlighting characteristic differences) of resolve in such matters and are willing to forgive the enemy; but we Bhutias and Gurkhas of mountains are warriors by tradition; giving up, forgiving and sparing a hateful enemy, being apologetic to external aggression and bowing down in front of "rational" political correctness by losing our national dignity for a few more bucks (that we can get from trading with any other country) is not in our blood. We cannot "move on" especially if we didn't start the violence and they did. We might not start wars.... but we take a pledge to always end them.
 

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Communists (so-called Indians) who are traitors living in our country still don't accept this despite eating Indian salt, living on Indian soil and call Chinese backstabbing as "Indian indecisiveness".
Your perception of Indian communists is very biased and incorrect. The grandfather of a close friend of mine was a avid participant during the Independence movement, joined the Indian Navy in the 50s, and then devoted his entire life to medical assistance for rural poor in Andhra Pradesh, in particular raising awareness among young Indians about blood donation. We was one of the most patriotic people I have ever known, as well as one of the most dedicated and charismatic.

And guess what, during this entire time, he was a member of the Communist Party of India(m)

And yes, I can list many other Indian communists I know who are very intelligent, patriotic, and inspiring.

Don't make sweeping generalizations just to fit your perception of things.
 

Tshering22

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Goan youth has a soft corner and repect for portugese. I remember the goan festival where if something went wrong from govt side, they took to street for yelling bring back portugese rule. :happy_2:

Are you sure? I don't think you'd find that. Except for some self-fantasizing wannabe portuguese, most Goans are very typical Indian by nature and attitudes. I've met quite some. And just to give and example, our ACM is one by origin. :) So you can imagine.
 

Tshering22

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Your perception of Indian communists is very biased and incorrect. The grandfather of a close friend of mine was a avid participant during the Independence movement, joined the Indian Navy in the 50s, and then devoted his entire life to medical assistance for rural poor in Andhra Pradesh, in particular raising awareness among young Indians about blood donation. We was one of the most patriotic people I have ever known, as well as one of the most dedicated and charismatic.

And guess what, during this entire time, he was a member of the Communist Party of India(m)

And yes, I can list many other Indian communists I know who are very intelligent, patriotic, and inspiring.

Don't make sweeping generalizations just to fit your perception of things.
Don't be such an idealist without knowing them dear bro. A couple of individuals don't count; but what is accountable is the behaviour of Communists as a "party". Living in northeast, I am very well familiar with their negative ways. One side of my state is Nepal where Communists are a nuisance (as per my Nepali friends) and another side is the state of West Bengal. CPI is a joke here in my state and is hated by us common Sikkimese. Their shallow China/USSR wannabe attitude disgusts us and so does their political ideology of intolerance, hate and repression wherever they go worldwide.

This family friend of yours whom you say joined the Navy might be good person. I don't make "sweeping statements" for all. I've seen what Communists are capable of and that is why I (and my entire community and state) despise their alien concept. FYI Bhagat Singh is one of my main heroes; he was influenced by some concepts of Communism too. :)
 

civfanatic

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Don't be such an idealist without knowing them dear bro. A couple of individuals don't count; but what is accountable is the behaviour of Communists as a "party". Living in northeast, I am very well familiar with their negative ways. One side of my state is Nepal where Communists are a nuisance (as per my Nepali friends) and another side is the state of West Bengal. CPI is a joke here in my state and is hated by us common Sikkimese. Their shallow China/USSR wannabe attitude disgusts us and so does their political ideology of intolerance, hate and repression wherever they go worldwide.

This family friend of yours whom you say joined the Navy might be good person. I don't make "sweeping statements" for all. I've seen what Communists are capable of and that is why I (and my entire community and state) despise their alien concept. FYI Bhagat Singh is one of my main heroes; he was influenced by some concepts of Communism too. :)
You should know that Kerala has long been a communist-ruled state and is also one of the most developed states in India, but you will probably attribute that to something else... which is fine by me. I'm just giving examples.

If you can give me proof that most Indian communists (not Naxalites/Maoists/etc, but actual common party members) are Chinese spies/India haters I might be willing to hate communists as well.

Btw, genuine communism is not alien to traditional Indian philosophy in any way. You should know by now that the Chinese version "communism" has nothing to do with actual communism, but is a namesake only.
 

Rage

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This sort of silly forget and forgive mentality is the reason why we Indians are called weaklings and are taken for granted world around. Keep this up and soon everywhere around the globe there will be "curry bashing". Nothing is wrong with me; I am asking what is wrong with you fellow Indians. We cannot wage a war on historical grudge I agree; but Portugal is not such an indispensable nation without whose relations we will die out. Those losers cannot be punished today due to the sheer shallow reasons of historical grudge that we have but at least we can save some dignity with keeping away from them.

And you talk of friends as if our past is the only way to survive! Are we running short of countries that we'd die if we don't make friends with a bunch of loser countries? I mean what kind of slave mentality is that?! Every country wants to be our friend today and we're spoilt for choice. What significant contribution can Portugal do to India in any field compared to what our existing friends already can? Anything different from UK, France, Germany, Russia, USA, Canada, Singapore, Israel, Ukraine, Poland etc? I don't think so. They don't have a flourishing economy, their core industries are dead, no segment of their trade is uniquely known worldwide etc then what the hell do we have to gain from them?

Italy it is so obvious because we've an Italian ruler and I don't have any issues with Italians. Even then ancient Rome had trade ties with Asia.

What good allies are you talking about? The same "base" is offered by Spain that has a better economy, better development record and has not brutalized any part of our country before. Spain has more prospects even in defence being a part of Eurofighter consortium and therefore India is far more better off dealing with a country that has some significant part in a world-famous project in defence than a loser self-conceited former Nazi-style colonizer who deserves a painful end. A little bit of self-respect to retain is far more than a few extra billions. Portugal is not a country without which our economy will spiral backwards.

-------------------

Rage, most of the common Indian population of souther plains and coastal regions are soft-hearted and idealist-oriented (not intending to be offensive towards anyone or any community in specific but highlighting characteristic differences) of resolve in such matters and are willing to forgive the enemy; but we Bhutias and Gurkhas of mountains are warriors by tradition; giving up, forgiving and sparing a hateful enemy, being apologetic to external aggression and bowing down in front of "rational" political correctness by losing our national dignity for a few more bucks (that we can get from trading with any other country) is not in our blood. We cannot "move on" especially if we didn't start the violence and they did. We might not start wars.... but we take a pledge to always end them.
Tshering,

first off, I want to state that I'm no 'southern softie of the plains' or whatever else. I am Maratha by birth, and Indian by nationality and 've lived the most part of my life in a city where you've got to shove the other guy in order to stay in the competition.

That said, I think it is important for me and you and everyone else that clings to the past, to realize that the Portuguese that occupied India 300 years ago are not the same as the Portuguese today. Heck, even the Portuguese that got buzzed out ignominiously 40 years ago are not the same Portuguese today. If the Yanks had that mentality, they never would've sheltered the Jews. They never would've had the great banking or financial services industry, that pinion of their global economic dominance, if it weren't for the Jews. The Germans didn't, and look how dear it cost them. The Portuguese are no threat to India today. They do not threaten our interests, our territories, our ambitions or our goals. They do not threaten us at military or at political forums. Infact, they help us by complimenting our resources with the significant cork, mining and uranium-tungsten industries they supply. They are one country that has truly benefited from EU integration, uplifting themselves out of poverty and offering a good example of the economic integration.

As for their economy, you'd be surprised. They've consistently ranked high on the global competitiveness scale, <even higher than Hong Kong, Spain, France or Belgium in 2005> and are a high-income economy, with a vibrant services sector.

If they ever did threaten our interests, when they threaten our interests, we'd come down on them so hard that they'd be buried under the same sea João fought so hard to conquer.

What you must realize, is that we have to pick and choose our battles. We are surrounded by wolves on all sides, ravenous thieves that either usurp our territory or send in d!ckheads to try and 'liberate' them under their 'insightful rule'. We don't need this, we really don't.

Why is cooperation with both Spain and Portugal mutually exclusive? Do we forfeit what we could earn <more than 90% of the trade balance> from trade with Portugal? Do we forfeit what we could gain from their experience in the mining and fisheries industry? Do we forfeit their cooperation for one, when we could have two? Is there nothing we can learn from a first world, highly advanced political-economy? Are we completely self-sufficient in our knowledge of the military industry?

Your argument makes no sense, historical wrongs are historical wrongs. And we should never forget them. But we should set them aside, especially for cooperation in the present. Especially, especially, when we stand nothing to lose and everything to gain, and when we are obviously so much more the stronger.
 
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Tshering22

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^^ Modern self-imposed restrictions of idealism is not present in us either. An enemy is an enemy who is always an enemy and will always be one. And you know very well that there are more ways to destroy an opponent than mere war. China today still gets pissed off at Japanese PM paying homage to Kamikaze shrines of Imperial Japan era. If they can do something that old, why can we make it a point to keep our dignity high? Fisheries and mining is good in most mediterranean states and being a southern Europe forte, we can enhance ties in these areas with any of them.

Even if I accept that we should forget them of their previous generations, they should not be allowed in Goa. There are so many other ports for them to come, show their face and leave. Allowing them in Goa is like Israel welcoming Nazi generals.

History cannot be simply "forgotten" buddy. It is easy to say that but difficult to face it. Because history was there, present is here and tomorrow this present becomes a history. It is a chain that cannot be forgotten. We cannot start a war just because of historical grudge as that is foolish and I agree but we can at least maintain distance.
 

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