Poor Quality Manufacturing

[Kunal Biswas]

Just adding few points, Full Automation is way of the future and i am sure TATA and other Companies can do that with DRDO / Foreign help ..

There is just too much money needed to pour into National defense Organization, Specially R&D ..

i would suggest them to not waste time and take up the offer of BAE to modernize their units all across India, at the same time

 

[ghost]

Then we must buy out darra, To manufacture next generation Multi cal Rifle..

You know, We get lots of these Guns at our borders and we dispose them, Why ? because there quality is so nice that after 100rnds they explode ..

Where your head is heading now days

Coming from the same guy who have implied over here end number of times how army uses these captured weapons.
I have a friend in army serving in Kashmir and i know what other uses these weapons are put to but it cannot be disclosed in general forums.

And once again there is nothing wrong in my behavior that gives you the right to " insult me or dictate me " if you do not agree rebut but do not behave like this and this i am not pleading but telling you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And in many of those countless post i have also mentioned in bold 'Only the gud once' , Lets face it, You don`t have ability rebut other opinions but think you are free to express your opinion which are usually more than Opinions ( Irrelevant most ), You are lossing your cool ..

I think you need a break ..

Coming from the same guy who have implied over here end number of times how army uses these captured weapons.
I have a friend in army serving in Kashmir and i know what other uses these weapons are put to but it cannot be disclosed in general forums.

And once again there is nothing wrong in my behavior that gives you the right to " insult me or dictate me " if you do not agree rebut but do not behave like this and this i am not pleading but telling you.

 

[ALBY]

We had seenn many pics of indian army using darra made weapons especially those AKMSU ie the AK74U type weapon chambered to fire 7.62x39 ammo.May be some of the weapons may malfunction, but they tend to make some innovations to the existing weaponry with the basic equipment and the elementary knowledge in gunsmithing which they acquire as hereditary.Contrary to it how many of our products had been rejected .Amogh,excalier,bhim,kalanthak,etc.
Remember our industries are run by crores of govt fund and it had not grown much where many small nations like bulgaria makes better weapons than our small arms.
Once privatisation is allowed in our defence sector OFB,DRDO etc will have the same fatee of Doordarshan....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Now days these things are not touched any longer nor J&K police accepting these but rather looking at other options, The reason is simply they are not reliable, 50rnds at best ..

=======================

GSQR made by IA, Will not let that happen, OFB previously made Excalibur, Which i consider better than 1B1 but was not issued ..

Political commitment is necessary to do what you are talking, Those crores are penuts but well spend given the amount of small arms to arty they are making in those vintage factories ..

Privatization is not a magic wand but i agree it can be a very well magic wand if given the duty of license production, From small arms to tanks and fighter jet but strictly not R&D ..

We had seenn many pics of indian army using darra made weapons especially those AKMSU ie the AK74U type weapon chambered to fire 7.62x39 ammo.May be some of the weapons may malfunction, but they tend to make some innovations to the existing weaponry with the basic equipment and the elementary knowledge in gunsmithing which they acquire as hereditary.Contrary to it how many of our products had been rejected .Amogh,excalier,bhim,kalanthak,etc.
Remember our industries are run by crores of govt fund and it had not grown much where many small nations like bulgaria makes better weapons than our small arms.
Once privatisation is allowed in our defence sector OFB,DRDO etc will have the same fatee of Doordarshan....

 

[ghost]

Why you hate so much on those who are doing something ..

Read this blog : save ordnance factories

According to the BCG report, the DPSUs and ordnance factories employ about 180,000 people; the DRDO another 30,000. Although they manufacture Rs 35,000 crore of defence equipment a year, their productivity is abysmal. The BCG report cited a finance ministry survey to show that productivity in the state-owned defence sector was the lowest among all industries—Rs 15 lakh per employee per year—and half of the national average.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The question here, Why is abysmal according to your view in a constructive way ..

Is it related to corruption and outdated equipment or any other reason .. ?

According to the BCG report, the DPSUs and ordnance factories employ about 180,000 people; the DRDO another 30,000. Although they manufacture Rs 35,000 crore of defence equipment a year, their productivity is abysmal. The BCG report cited a finance ministry survey to show that productivity in the state-owned defence sector was the lowest among all industries—Rs 15 lakh per employee per year—and half of the national average.

 

[Kay]

@Kunal Biswas: OFBs are inefficient for the same reason all other PSUs are. PSUs are inefficient as regards to private sector for the following reasons:
"¢ Lack of Motivation –
o Companies are not motivated because:
 There is zero competition
 No pressure to perform
 Profits don't matter
o Employees are not motivated because:
 The personal goals of employees are not tied to company performance
 Salary is not related to company performance
 Promotions are automatic in many cases - age is the criteria over merit
 Too many policies in hiring, recruitment and promotion which bypass merit and performance (e.g. reservations, union membership)
"¢ Lack of Innovation –
o Organization structures change less over time compared to public sector
o Organizations are run by following rules set down – Discussion on rules, employee involvement, etc. is not welcome
o Innovation is rarely encouraged. Too many political and bureaucratic hurdles come in way of innovation. New ideas take a long time to be implemented even if accepted.
"¢ Lack of Leadership –
o Promotions at higher level are tied in many cases to party-politics and cavorting with union bosses.
o Mediocre leaders have little imagination, drive or ability to take the companies forward. Even if the leaders themselves are great, they are not sufficiently enabled – or empowered to make new decisions or implement them effectively
For these reasons, it is well established that private sectors are more efficient than public sectors. The role of government is governance only – i.e. policy making, regulation and compliance monitoring and setting up the required structures. The government should get out of business, banking, manufacturing, trading, education, healthcare, etc. It should put into policies, regulations and structures to make sure that education and healthcare is affordable and available, but not get involved directly. We need a small but efficient government.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This was a reply to someone else, Part of it suits here ..

Should i call you Genius ..

You seem to know you Gov well, But i am afraid not your County, 3 million IA solider cannot rely on imports nor the equipment design for some other country but tailor made for ourselves, Why we need Private R&D ? Do you understand the risks involves ? have you read or research on those country which rely on Pvt corp for there arms like Amerika ? , Our Gov is not like Amerika Gov , They cannot tame there own PSU leave alone PVT corps under ..

Do give a hard thinking abt things you are talking ..

If Arms market was same as telecom and vehicle business, Than i would have agreed, Buts its not ..

There is no shortcuts, If you have issues then they need to be resolved by only you ..

@Kunal Biswas: OFBs are inefficient for the same reason all other PSUs are. PSUs are inefficient as regards to private sector for the following reasons:
"¢ Lack of Motivation –
o Companies are not motivated because:
 There is zero competition
 No pressure to perform
 Profits don't matter
o Employees are not motivated because:
 The personal goals of employees are not tied to company performance
 Salary is not related to company performance
 Promotions are automatic in many cases - age is the criteria over merit
 Too many policies in hiring, recruitment and promotion which bypass merit and performance (e.g. reservations, union membership)
"¢ Lack of Innovation –
o Organization structures change less over time compared to public sector
o Organizations are run by following rules set down – Discussion on rules, employee involvement, etc. is not welcome
o Innovation is rarely encouraged. Too many political and bureaucratic hurdles come in way of innovation. New ideas take a long time to be implemented even if accepted.
"¢ Lack of Leadership –
o Promotions at higher level are tied in many cases to party-politics and cavorting with union bosses.
o Mediocre leaders have little imagination, drive or ability to take the companies forward. Even if the leaders themselves are great, they are not sufficiently enabled – or empowered to make new decisions or implement them effectively
For these reasons, it is well established that private sectors are more efficient than public sectors. The role of government is governance only – i.e. policy making, regulation and compliance monitoring and setting up the required structures. The government should get out of business, banking, manufacturing, trading, education, healthcare, etc. It should put into policies, regulations and structures to make sure that education and healthcare is affordable and available, but not get involved directly. We need a small but efficient government.

 

[ghost]

This was a reply to someone else, Part of it suits here ..



If Arms market was same as telecom and vehicle business, Than i would have agreed, Buts its not ..

There is no shortcuts, If you have issues then they need to be resolved by only you ..

Most of the statement are just in general and vague without going into details.
just to explain in simple language "when you are getting paid to do nothing then who would want to work"
You state lack of "modern manufacturing facility" but it's not the main reason .


The production performance of indian ordance factories has been the concern of stakeholders including the government of india.In april 2004 the government of india appointed the kelkar committee to look into the varied aspects of strengthening self reliance in defence preparedness the committee,amongst others,diagonsed the organisation to be suffering from weak strategic management,lack of operational freedom,narrow captive customer base,weak in house r&d and overstaffing.

To add to this the ofb came down to "dharna pradharshan" so that government does not comply to kelkar report why?Well because they had made the recommendation of "outsourcing work and privatization" to which government scummed to ofb/psu pressure and the report was scraped because they threatened to agitate.Have you ever heard them agitating for modernization?

Livefist: PSU/OFB: If they're so good, why are they so scared?


"The mandarins of the defence ministry and the state-owned arms companies that keeps private Indian firms at arm's length. As defence ministry officials privately admit, institutions like the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics prefer to import foreign-made weapons rather than allow the Tatas and Mahindras to get a real share of the contracts. Their fear: the competence of the private sector will marginalise them."


"I don't think there's another country in the world that has tried as hard as India to make weapons and failed as thoroughly," said Pieter D. Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which studies global security.

Mr. Wezeman said he was skeptical that India's new products would change that history, saying that its fighters, tanks and guns were "of questionable quality."


"India's main problem as an arms manufacturer is a corrupt and inefficient government sector that has neither the expertise to develop top-notch weapons nor the wherewithal to make them in abundance, said Manoj Joshi, a fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, a policy group based in New Delhi. "

*************************In one telling example, India could buy fully assembled Russian Sukhoi fighters for about $55 million each, but instead mostly relies on kits that are sent to the government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which assembles them at a cost of about $68 million each — nearly a quarter more. In another example, government labs spent billions trying to develop an aircraft engine, only to abandon the effort and buy engines from General Electric for the recently introduced fighter, the Tejas.****************

"While it's more complicated assembling Sukhois than putting together an Ikea flat-pack, it's not that hard," said Samuel Perlo-Freeman, a program director at the Stockholm institute. "And it's far from an independent and autonomous development of a new weapons system."


Regarding the need of tailor made need of our defence forces even private companies can do it and they do it for your information cz bren 807 was only developed to meet the tailor made requirement of indian army and even the tata and mahindra develop tailor made for army.
Further you fail to realize the harsh reailty:

Much of India's military, in any case, does not want Indian-made equipment. So many Russian fighters assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics have crashed in recent years that the Indian Air Force calls them flying coffins. India's Russian-made submarines and naval equipment have experienced deadly mishaps in the past year as well, leading the country's naval chief to resign last week. The distrust between the civilian builders and military users has turned the made-in-India effort into an even tougher sell. eg INS kolkata.

I just recommend one thing open up the defence sector for private industry with level playing field .Bring in the competition let them fight for their money just as Bsnl and doordarshan still exist government psu can exist simultaneously along with Indian private industry ."let the better man win"

And if private defense sector can be managed and regulated in America and Israeil i do not see any reason why not in India?

"privatization and outsourcing work is the way to resolve this issue" as per kelkar committee on lack lesture performance of government psu/ofb

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In you rant, You have failed to realize basic thing that Army, So does navy and Air-force follow the same suit as what marked in bold ..

More over, You fail and fail and fail again to relise Its not the DPSUs or OFBs opposing the GOI or Kelkar committee, its the Defence employees trade union aka the commies.Both the DPSUs and even the somewhat lackadaisical OFB work extensively with the private sector. [/U] But their junior grade - ie non managerial cadre employees are always suspicious as they want job security, and the trade unions are affiliated to the CPI and CPI(M) which are against privatisation of defence., This basically means that its the employees Trade Union, not the OFB officals managers.

You further failed to understand from beginning, how Self reliance is archived, Indian Gov spend peanuts for engine development, China on other hand for the same spend equally to the amount we are spending to by 126 MRCA, btw Tejas outsource 90% of components from Pvt sectors, INS Kolkata is doing fine and finished its sea trails, You have little Idea abt you own country, Suggest you know before what you speak off ..

CZ-807 cannot even eject casing at 45 degree, Which is a basic requirement in an AR by IA ..

===================

There is load of cases for corrupt practices in defense procurement, Our system is made purposefully to make both Government so does Pvt industry incompetent to pave way for imports ..

Our Nation have some of the most hi-tech industries, but unfortunately we see DRDO, HAL & OFB in black and white, It is done purposefully so that there will be an open door for imports and with that huge $$$$ kick backs ..

It has been going on since 1948 and still on, It has became an tradition for political wing ..

===================

From onwards, Post the link with a para to read, Its harder to read such long post

Most of the statement are just in general and vague without going into details.
just to explain in simple language "when you are getting paid to do nothing then who would want to work"
You state lack of "modern manufacturing facility" but it's not the main reason .

The production performance of indian ordance factories has been the concern of stakeholders including the government of india.In april 2004 the government of india appointed the kelkar committee to look into the varied aspects of strengthening self reliance in defence preparedness the committee,amongst others,diagonsed the organisation to be suffering from weak strategic management,lack of operational freedom,narrow captive customer base,weak in house r&d and overstaffing.

To add to this the ofb came down to "dharna pradharshan" so that government does not comply to kelkar report why?Well because they had made the recommendation of "outsourcing work and privatization" to which government scummed to ofb/psu pressure and the report was scraped because they threatened to agitate.Have you ever heard them agitating for modernization?

Livefist: PSU/OFB: If they're so good, why are they so scared?


"The mandarins of the defence ministry and the state-owned arms companies that keeps private Indian firms at arm's length. As defence ministry officials privately admit, institutions like the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Hindustan Aeronautics prefer to import foreign-made weapons rather than allow the Tatas and Mahindras to get a real share of the contracts. Their fear: the competence of the private sector will marginalise them."


"I don't think there's another country in the world that has tried as hard as India to make weapons and failed as thoroughly," said Pieter D. Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which studies global security.

Mr. Wezeman said he was skeptical that India's new products would change that history, saying that its fighters, tanks and guns were "of questionable quality."


"India's main problem as an arms manufacturer is a corrupt and inefficient government sector that has neither the expertise to develop top-notch weapons nor the wherewithal to make them in abundance, said Manoj Joshi, a fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, a policy group based in New Delhi. "

*************************In one telling example, India could buy fully assembled Russian Sukhoi fighters for about $55 million each, but instead mostly relies on kits that are sent to the government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which assembles them at a cost of about $68 million each — nearly a quarter more. In another example, government labs spent billions trying to develop an aircraft engine, only to abandon the effort and buy engines from General Electric for the recently introduced fighter, the Tejas.****************

"While it's more complicated assembling Sukhois than putting together an Ikea flat-pack, it's not that hard," said Samuel Perlo-Freeman, a program director at the Stockholm institute. "And it's far from an independent and autonomous development of a new weapons system."


Regarding the need of tailor made need of our defence forces even private companies can do it and they do it for your information cz bren 807 was only developed to meet the tailor made requirement of indian army and even the tata and mahindra develop tailor made for army.
Further you fail to realize the harsh reailty:

Much of India's military, in any case, does not want Indian-made equipment. So many Russian fighters assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics have crashed in recent years that the Indian Air Force calls them flying coffins. India's Russian-made submarines and naval equipment have experienced deadly mishaps in the past year as well, leading the country's naval chief to resign last week. The distrust between the civilian builders and military users has turned the made-in-India effort into an even tougher sell. eg INS kolkata.

I just recommend one thing open up the defence sector for private industry with level playing field .Bring in the competition let them fight for their money just as Bsnl and doordarshan still exist government psu can exist simultaneously along with Indian private industry ."let the better man win"

And if private defense sector can be managed and regulated in America and Israeil i do not see any reason why not in India?

"privatization and outsourcing work is the way to resolve this issue" as per kelkar committee on lack lesture performance of government psu/ofb

 

[ghost]

In you rant, You have failed to realize basic thing that Army, So does navy and Air-force follow the same suit as what marked in bold ..

I am not interested to read copy paste of text from a blog, I asked you abt a constructive view of yours as why such things are there ..

You further failed to understand from beginning, how Self reliance is archived, Indian Gov spend peanuts for engine development, China on other hand for the same spend equally to the amount we are spending to by 126 MRCA, INS Kolkata is doing fine and finished its sea trails, You have little Idea abt you own country, Suggest you know before what you speak off ..

CZ-807 cannot even eject casing at 45 degree, Which is a basic requirement in an AR by IA ..

===================

There is load of cases for corrupt practices in defense procurement, Our system is made purposefully to demoralize Government so does Pvt industry to make any betterment ..

Our Army is treated bad but our Scientific community being treated worst by our own government, There is least to add anything on this, Its clear abt the intention of our Gov and System which are basically clear way for imports and kickbacks for there own good ..



===================

From onwards, Post the link with a para to read, Its harder to read such long post ..

First i had quoted from multiple sources not one link hence did not provide the link.

Now my main point of conflict with you is that according to you everyone barring defence PSU are to be blamed for the poor performance of defence PSU.Where as i think that the major chunk of responsibility lies with the PSU and other than lack of funds there are many other factors involved in it as stated above and in kelkar report.

Now regarding ins Kolkatta suggest you go through thisMumbai: Navy hit again, officer dies in mishap on INS Kolkata - Hindustan Times

You are just hell bent on ignoring the incompetence and high corruption of our defence PSU may i remind you the recent CBI to probe Rolls-Royce and HAL deals over possible kickbacks | Mail Online


let me add one more jewel in the crown http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Submarine-INS-Sindhukirti-stuck-in-refit-for-8-years/articleshow/31558431.cms

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Follow the suit as everyone else doing here, Post links ..

What you are asking is already been stated in previous post ..

I suggest you read the article you provided in your own post and what you stated in your previous post " The distrust between the civilian builders and military users has turned the made-in-India effort into an even tougher sell " << This has nothing to do with a valve on top of the carbon-dioxide cylinder burst and the serviceman who perished wasn't wearing protective gear during inspection..

I can only see you futile effort on argument winning ..

Should i call you Genius ..

You seem to know you Gov well, But i am afraid not your County, 3 million IA solider cannot rely on imports nor the equipment design for some other country but tailor made for ourselves, Why we need Private R&D ? Do you understand the risks involves ? have you read or research on those country which rely on Pvt corp for there arms like Amerika ? , Our Gov is not like Amerika Gov , They cannot tame there own PSU leave alone PVT corps under ..

Do give a hard thinking abt things you are talking ..

There is load of cases for corrupt practices in defense procurement, Our system is made purposefully to make both Government so does Pvt industry incompetent to pave way for imports ..

Like before you cannot even read posts properly ..

First i had quoted from multiple sources not one link hence did not provide the link.

Now my main point of conflict with you is that according to you everyone barring defence PSU are to be blamed for the poor performance of defence PSU.Where as i think that the major chunk of responsibility lies with the PSU and other than lack of funds there are many other factors involved in it as stated above and in kelkar report.

Now regarding ins Kolkatta suggest you go through thisMumbai: Navy hit again, officer dies in mishap on INS Kolkata - Hindustan Times

You are just hell bent on ignoring the incompetence and high corruption of our defence PSU may i remind you the recent CBI to probe Rolls-Royce and HAL deals over possible kickbacks | Mail Online

 

[ghost]

Follow the suit as everyone else doing here, Post links ..

What you are asking is already been stated in previous post ..

I suggest you read the article you provided in your own post and what you stated in your previous post " The distrust between the civilian builders and military users has turned the made-in-India effort into an even tougher sell " << This has nothing to do with a valve on top of the carbon-dioxide cylinder burst and the serviceman who perished wasn't wearing protective gear during inspection..

I can only see you futile effort on argument winning ..



Like before you cannot even read posts properly ..

I can read the post properly but i guess same does not apply to you as i have quoted as to how defence psu are afraid of private companies so that they do not have to compete.Further i have gone through each article and they emphasize on the fact how defence PSU do not want privatization at any cost.

Lets say we provide them with latest manufacturing unit but what about "work culture" and i do not concur with ur points regarding privatisation even kelkar committe which comprised of expert of defence field who have studied and gone into great detail unlike you and me have recommended "privatization" +government regulate all industry in all country always.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the previous posts, You will find your answers ..

Improve the leadership, Everything under will change gradually ..

I can read the post properly but i guess same does not apply to you as i have quoted as to how defence psu are afraid of private companies so that they do not have to compete.Further i have gone through each article and they emphasize on the fact how defence PSU do not want privatization at any cost.

Lets say we provide them with latest manufacturing unit but what about "work culture" and i do not concur with ur points regarding privatisation even kelkar committe which comprised of expert of defence field who have studied and gone into great detail unlike you and me have recommended "privatization" +government regulate all industry in all country always.

 

[roma]

Even if we have a "National fighter" it won't even change a thing. The current production rate Of HAL is very low. So even if we have a National Fighter HAL would not be able to meet up with wartime loses. Basic problem lies in our existing infrastructure. DRDO has always been complaing about setup of FABs, OFB has been complaing about poor machinery they have still nothing from government

it's a great question, and it has been asked before, indeed many times.

the basic answer is that we do have people in important positions who prefer to import rather than manufacture ingeniously
for obvious reasons
reasons which are plain and clear to any educated person who is aware
but we do have a "democratic " system where the weightage given to a village person is equal to the weightage of a university professor
so one man one vote , no matter who the man is
so then all the antics done by this so-called aaam admi is swallowed by the gullible - and they get votes they really didnt deserve.
and the gullible keep voting for the corrupt because they have a great election image

BJP will put an end to all of this

granted they are not perfect
granted there are also the corrupt among them

but if we get them in and hold them accountable - i believe they are the best to deliver !

may i reluctantly say ;- they ARE THE BEST AMONG THE WORST !
india should preferably have a plenipotentiary council an apex committee which has the best persons from all parties
that would be the best , but as that is unrealistic at the moment, the next best is the BJP
even as a chrsitian person , i would say that

 

[ghost]

Read the previous posts, You will find your answers ..

Improve the leadership, Everything under will change gradually ..

Agreed bring in the reforms in defence PSU bring in the accountability lay down serious penalty for any mishap regarding poor workmanship or quality regarding defence psu try them under murder charges for any death due to these reasons.But still i would like to have level playing field for indian private companies in defence sector just for a simple reason that it will provide "multiple option" to our defence forces to choose from plus when you are tied to a single organization for your need it can never be a ideal condition "competition" being the keyword here.