Poor Quality Manufacturing

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by Sea Eagle, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. Sea Eagle

    Sea Eagle Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    669
    Location:
    INS Arihant
    Even if we have a "National fighter" it won't even change a thing. The current production rate Of HAL is very low. So even if we have a National Fighter HAL would not be able to meet up with wartime loses. Basic problem lies in our existing infrastructure. DRDO has always been complaing about setup of FABs, OFB has been complaing about poor machinery they have still nothing from government
     
    ghost likes this.
  2.  
  3. Kyubi

    Kyubi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Poor Quality Manufauring

    Dont understand why are defense products lack the finesse which otherwise is quite evident in foreign products. I just hope our DRDO labs and our aerospace firms recruit more no of product design engineers to bring in much needed finesse in to our products. we may be making robust engineering systems but whats the point if the fit and finish of the product are not in league with the foreign products. For example if one were to look at the weld lines on Arjun MKII tank the just don't feel right they may be providing the necessary strength but they lack in finish and if one were to point out the hinges used on certain areas on the tank they look so cheesy, i'd say its a very haphazard way of integration.
     
    ghost and LETHALFORCE like this.
  4. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Re: Difficult to face joint China-Pak threat: IAF

    Our Nation have some of the most hi-tech industries, but unfortunately we see DRDO, HAL & OFB in black and white, It is done purposefully so that there will be an open door for imports and with that huge $$$$ kick backs ..

    It has been going on since 1948 and still on, It has became an tradition for political wing ..

     
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Poor Quality Manufauring

    BAE Systems offers to modernise ordnance factories

    Source : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/02/bae-systems-offers-to-modernise.html
     
  6. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    re: Poor Quality Manufacturing

    How you expect 21st century quality from an 18th century factory :D

    Where the tax payers money went ? > Imports and scams ..
     
    sesha_maruthi27, ghost and nirranj like this.
  7. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    re: Poor Quality Manufacturing

    DRDO chief wants 7% of defence budget for R&D

    Broadsword: DRDO chief wants 7% of defence budget for R&D

    ============

    How much really Gov care for National security ..
     
  8. Sea Eagle

    Sea Eagle Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    669
    Location:
    INS Arihant
    re: Poor Quality Manufacturing

    The poor products of our factories can be seen with example of Akash SAM too..
    When DRDO produced these missiles by themselves all were succesfully tested and when BDL and BEL produced these the first missile test failed
     
  9. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    re: Poor Quality Manufacturing

    DRDO Seeks $35 Billion Allocation for Five Years

    Source : http://www.defencenow.com/news/778/drdo-seeks-$35-billion-allocation-for-five-years.html

    =====================

    More questions abt quality issues ..
     
  10. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    re: Poor Quality Manufacturing

    SAM failed all the time, I have seen mass failure of Russian SAM in military test myself ..

    One time, Unit from AAD were test firing an SA-8, It fired up and went backwards direction after launch and landed over a village, Luck for villagers it fell over a field, And then similar incident followed up when the missile lock went wrong and targeted one of our own boats, Luckily it crashed into sea before impact..

     
    ghost, LETHALFORCE, nirranj and 3 others like this.
  11. Sea Eagle

    Sea Eagle Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    669
    Location:
    INS Arihant
  12. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    195
    Kunal ji, in PSUs it is HR,Finance,security and vigilance dept call the shots. its like the dog's tail trying to wag the dog!!!! Procurement procedures have become worse with so many rules and regulations .The hands of PSus are being tied like that in the Gulliver travel story!!! DRDO is quick to adapt latest tech but they are poor prototype makers and it is other way round for defence PSUs. Unfortunately we depend everything from outside for all our raw material needs like various types of alloys,electronic components which makes a designers life miserable because of lack of sufficient FE funds,long lead times etc... With all these foot in the mouth rules and regulations still corruption will be taking place as we see in news papers. every deal is in shambles and tatters because of kneejerk reactions and corruption scandals. I am quite sure pakistan is buying what it wants with ease and with out any hassles once funding is available after watching us. we are spending billions but still ending up with duds and vintage stuff. All our so called friends are sucking our blood and selling us third rate stuff!!! Indigenization is the only mantra.For this we should have visionaries like APJ sahab and a well developed indigenous raw material and components sourcing pvt/public firms.
     
    LETHALFORCE and rvjpheonix like this.
  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Logically, Arming a 3 million IA ( Including reserves and futures corps ) based on imports is not feasible, Continual supply of ammo and arm within the country is what needed ..

    Like one said, Modern battle are won by factories behind the lines, Now think abt India and China ..

     
    LETHALFORCE and nirranj like this.
  14. Kyubi

    Kyubi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Bangalore
    A little off topic i suppose but mostly related to the situation prevalent in DRDO
    The Following Website Provides ample information on how DRDO conducts itself in the public. Several RTI's have been filed against alleged corruption charges, lapses in security, scams in HR dept, recruitment etc.. if this is the state of DRDO on the public front, i'm sure the same will be reflected on its products...
    Corruption In DRDO | Appeal to clean DRDO of corrupt and anti-national officials
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    The questions should be ' Why there is corruption on first place ? ' ..

    But coming to product quality its not corruption, But funding, Read the above articles where its mention clearly about the status of OFB & DRDO ..

    You cannot expect first grade product from 18th century factories ..

     
    nirranj likes this.
  16. rajsking

    rajsking Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    225
    Location:
    India
    Off topic - but I would like to share an interesting incident.
    I had a chance to interact with an Indian machines manufacturer. He was of the view that till today India cannot produce machines of the same quality as that of the these older machines. He happened to get a hand on one such machine - which uses belt-pulley drive (earlier factories have one common drive shaft and each machine was connected to it through belt drive instead of today's approach of each machine driven by independent motors). While contemporary machine was using a motor (like 200w to 1/2 hp) for feed system, the older machine was so well made that even now (when he purchased it) the feed system can be operated just by the air pressure of table fan. He kept table fan in front of pulley wheel and -voila - the feed system worked. Although, I has serious doubt - if he could use such relic for production purposes - but it speaks volumes about the state of India's machinery sector.
    And here I would like to emphasis the utter failure of Indian heavy machine manufacturing units - like HMT - in bringing India on par with contemporary industrial production standards. Neither, HMT itself could keep itself up to date and supply manufacturing sector with modern machinery - not could it prove to be an essential catalyst to promote private players in this sector. End result - manufacturing sector suffers. Most of the exports from India happens due to cheap labour. Overseas company either buy products which need not be of world standard quality or if they are buying quality products - they ensure that it is being manufactured using imported state of art machinery.

    If, even now, govt starts to give due attention to this long neglected sector - it will take atleast 1-2 decades before we reach world standards.

    If - public sector industries are using old machines - it can be either of the two reasons. Either suitable replacement is not available in the Indian market and / or - costly imported substitutes happened to fail cost-benefit analysis.

    If India - wants to use present situation to give impetuous to Indian machinery sector - It should tell foreign companies (like BAE in present case) that it would be barred from importing foreign machinery. However they will be given incentives if they wish to establish heavy machine producing centre in India. Give subsidies if they employ Indians in designing such machines. And I regard later ( enabling India with technical know-how in designing machines) to be of much more important and required part of the deal.
    In any case - such deals (of modernization) will take 4-5 years to be finalized. I want some-pro-active govt - to close the deal today on these conditions (no imports) so that there is minimum time delay impact on such modernization efforts.
    Equally important is assimilating modern metallurgy and modern material (inc - plastics, silicone etc) production & processing techniques.

    Wishful thinking.......I know!
     
    ghost and Kunal Biswas like this.
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    @rajsking, I recently went to an Indian Railway factory where they maintain Bogies, HMT machinery were there also, What i observed that HMT heavy machinery is good enough and it is little older than new Machinery from Hegenscheidt & Hyt, But certainly not out dated, Though compare to the railway factories, Arm manufacturing factories are way behind them, It is also done on purpose ..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    rajsking likes this.
  18. rajsking

    rajsking Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    225
    Location:
    India
    Although I have not visit that particular factory, I would be obliged if you could give the following inputs which could confirm my hypothesis.
    1) Newer German machines - whether they second hand machines
    2) Usage - whether HMT is being used for rough machining or fine machining

    My hypothesis is - HMT etc, when established, began producing machines - but - they did it akin "license production" - without developing inhouse capability to design machines. Though of good quality (standardized parts & processes)- it was not able to keep pace with the developments in this sector and by 90s has lost its only USP. Same dated product is available form Indian manufacturer at half the cost and state of art chinese/taiwanese machinery (although not of same ruggedness) is available at comparable cost. And contemporary german/US/Japanese machinery is available at 2-3 times the cost. And HMT now can neither compete at price point nor at technology point.
    By state of art - I mean high speed and better precision. Old machines are doing same work but they lack both productivity and precision. And any wonders - why Indian industry is blamed for both these traits. Nowadays - Indians are also producing machine fitted with computerised controls. but they are made akin to jugaad and not scientific designing. I have yet to see any Indian manufacturer who can claim that they fitted these controls after analysis if the machine chasis is capable of handling high speeds and if it is sufficiently rigid enough to offer requisite precision. And this jugaad approach leads to another deficiency in Indian machines - poor packaging.

    Coming back to point - I believe that even in 90s when the said factory would have ordered new machines they would have found out that second hand german machines to be more advanced (though maybe not cost effective) than the machines being produced by HMT. Then older HMT machines would have been put for rough machining and almost as old ( but newly bought) german machines would have been put for finished machining use.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    Sea Eagle likes this.
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,623
    Likes Received:
    28,459
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    What i see is, New machines so does older machines ..

    The factory is full of Indian machines mainly and German / Euro origin machines, No chinease ..

    Looking at touch control panels and their work ( Hard press, Cutting with precision and other things ) they look new ..

     
  20. Sea Eagle

    Sea Eagle Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,673
    Likes Received:
    669
    Location:
    INS Arihant
    But wasn't there money allocated something like 1700 crores for revamp of our OFBs any news about it ??
     
  21. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,290
    Location:
    BANGalore
    Poor quality of manufacturing is not limited to just the defence sector. Across the board something as basic as hand tools, you will find better quality and finish of imported products. Even the cheap Chinese ones are better.
     
    hit&run and ghost like this.

Share This Page