Poll, should women be allowed in combat?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Waffen SS, Oct 27, 2013.

?

Should women be allowed to join military or not.

  1. Yes, women have right to serve in every level of Military, from office jobs to combat duty.

    47.4%
  2. No, women should not be allowed to join Military at all.

    15.8%
  3. Only if women can meet the exact same standards as the men have to.

    15.8%
  4. Women should can be can be only allowed to join in Military's office works.

    21.1%
  1. Waffen SS

    Waffen SS New Member

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    Yes there are many historical examples where women fought and did it with bravery such as India's Rani Laxmibai, Soviet women during WW2 for example.

    While some say women should be sent to combat some say no.

    Those who say women should serve in combat their logics are:

    Women fought wars in history and it is proven that they can also fight, in addition women and men both are equal so women should not be deprived of the chance of serving in combat, it is about Gender equality.

    Those who say women should not be in combat:

    They say women are physically weaker than man when it comes to hand to hand combat women cant win. Women have problem of getting raped both by male partners and enemy soldiers it may result in pregnancy and in case if women soldiers are caught most likely they will suffer sexual abusement, women have problem with sanitation unlike men. Men can pass more days with out food and water women cant. Women have soft mind, it may affect their decision in warfare.

    Another group say if women have the same ability like man then they can join Military, how ever since man is physically stronger so it is stupid to say women will qualify in army having same ability compared to men, I personally think this.

    I personally think when women should not go to direct combat, but they can easily serve in Military's office jobs and in Military hospital., such as stenographer, code breaker, doctor and nurse.
    @Ray and @roma please comment here.
     
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  3. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    Hello there Waffen SS , thanks for asking me to comment :-
    i have edited your original post to hi-lite what i agree with

    i think we cant ignore the sanitation and other emotional issues of woman pow's

    and the roles you have mentioned are suitable , perhaps we can expand it just a wee bit more
    but woman's role in combat is realistically limited due to biological , emotional and family-role issues
    including social expectations of a woman's role in society
    i.e if the woman is military and a mother, is out on combat in afghanistan,
    so the husband who might be non-military is gonna nurse the family ?

    basically the part of your post i've quoted i agree with
    i think youve got it right there !
    best regards,
    R
     
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  4. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    in general,
    women require some privacy and additional resources for their daily needs than men.

    moreover it will be difficult for the military psychologically if a women i s captured more than men.

    in my opinion women need not be taken unless there is no option.
     
  5. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    for supporters of women in combat---

    women can be more concentrated than men and sustain very well the G forces than men making them suitable for airforce
     
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  6. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    A woman will find tough to kill an enemy physically, psychologically and jealously unless he happens to be she :D
     
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  7. jmj_overlord

    jmj_overlord Regular Member

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    you are right.........women can be allowed for combat when need arises like as in israel or US.........but not in front lines as they have their limitations......
     
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    We cannot compare with the Soviet Union.

    Women there are equal to men.

    In India it is not so.
     
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  9. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Waffen SS

    We have more than enough able-bodied & willing men in the right numbers. We can afford without women engaged in direct combat, unlike some developed nations with dwindling populations.
     
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  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    There are many issues that does not encourage the idea of having women in combat.

    I will illustrate with an example of a very minor issue.

    On a post (forward defended location) there may be just one latrine DTL, which has seats in a row and at best a gunny separation, but if a man stands up to fix his pant having done his 'job', he can see into the adjacent seats) and men bathe in an half open shelter.

    An officer can use the same without any problem.

    But for a woman combat person, that may not be possible, especially if she has an urgent need because of a Bombay Belly and most of the seats being in use by the jawan!

    They will require a separate facility.

    That would be waste of labour, material and time to construct the same, and more importantly, if there is space since the posts are not very large and depends on the tactical requirement and not constructed for administrative ease.

    In one post, I had to use the same facilities as the jawans and there was no issue on that, but would that be acceptable to a woman?

    In one of the wars, we had this whining lady doctor, who was most unhappy that she was brought to the combat zone and so she found any and every reason to complain.

    We had constructed a separate facility for her, though she found it necessary to complain that the jawans moving out for battle could see her in the toilet. Note: could.

    I told her that that could be the reason why the attacks were not as successfully quick as we desired since seeing her, they were so horrified that they had lost their bearings!

    All these fool problems waste time and distracts from the actual task of warfighting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  11. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    i think you raised a v interesting point about ability to handle g-force better (?) than men ? which our good friend packland has put into action - i believe they are training women as their airforce pilots ....still if we women pilots are shot down we would become pow's ? plus is our reaction time indeed faster than mens' ? i would wonder seriously ...i think we need expert or medical opinion on that

    perhaps women can be part of support , eg handling the drones via computer ? like those guys a re doing in military camps in nevada and they are drone-shooting terrorists in yemen !! indian women could also temporarily give up thier jobs as a sacrifice and get into defence manufacturing to help boost numbers required

    personally, i prefer the educated indian peoples' attitude to women and i think
    im glad it is imho far better than in the soviet union

    so indeed there may be cultural differences, our women may
    find ourselves playing a more narrow role than those in S:U: or russia
    but i think we would prefer it that way

    regards,
    R
     
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  12. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    quicker reaction time is only a matter of practise
     
  13. Waffen SS

    Waffen SS New Member

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    @TrueSpirit thanks for reply, I am not talking about only India but as a whole the debate of should women serve in combat or not.:)
     
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  14. pkroyal

    pkroyal Regular Member

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    Save for a few exceptions women are not suited for combat duties in general.

    lean muscle ratio is less ( relates to BMR),low energy levels.
    ratio of body fat ( is more, tendency for putting on weight)
    low levels of testosterone/ higher androgen ( lesser aggression)
    less tolerance to blood & gore ( heightened sensitivity)
    pains & aches in the body are are more ( bodily composition)
    tendency to gossip ( in lighter vein, security issues)
    multi tasking ( lack of focus on precision tasks, like aiming & firing)
    abnormal need for personal grooming ( time consuming/ not suited in combat conditions)

    Ladies there is so much to do in Life, than donning a uniform & becoming a " Jungi". Leave it to the male species to protect you & the Nation.
     
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  15. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    TO add one more Example to Women in combat, Rani Velu Nachchiar. She commanded A army that defeated British forces. And She was the proponent of Suicide bombing missions.

    Of woman power and Tamizh glory

    Also LTTE had Women only brigades. They have successfully executed missions against SL army.

    I think a study on the ways of Women in LTTE should give us a light on this matter as culturally there is not much difference betweem Mainland women and the LTTE cadres.

    SAGE: Women in Terrorism: Case of the LTTE: Tamara Herath: 9788132106951

    A comparitive study on Women in IRA annd LTTE :

    Female combatants of the LTTE and IRA: a comparative study
     
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  16. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Lean Muscle Ratio and Ratio of Bodyfat means the same thing. Women have more essential fat then men, and that will skew ratios.
    Smaller size means lesser silhouette and smaller target. And Indian soldiers are not creatine gobbling, steroid injecting freaks either.
    More bodyfat helps in survival.

    ==
    Less chances of putting weapon in auto and finishing ammo in seconds
    More time to think and strategize.
    Chronic Stress lowers your testosterone levels. In fact during combat the males testosterone levels bottoms out.
    Less chances of suffering from PTSD.
    Less chances of fratricide.

    ==

    Ever had mensuration ?
    Ever tried making rotis ?
    Women generally have greater stress-absorbing mechanism, and that's why live longer than men.

    Unfounded. A person that has the physical capability to give birth can withstand a shit load of pain.

    Didn't you complain that Indian officers indulged buttering up their bosses ?

    So not true. A wife is not only able to feed the children, but also take care of in-laws and husband, while maintaining the house and socializing.

    I don't think a woman going into combat would spend half an hour donning makeup.

    If a woman wants to serve the nation, she should be allowed to do so.
     
  17. happy

    happy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Ha ha ha, showed no mercy :p.

    In fact, women in US military use the same facilities as men AFAIK. The same baths, the same latrines, the same bunkers and finally the same gruelling routine inclluding the same food. They are only extended some medical facilities due to their biological needs.

    IMO, if a female soldier proves that she is on par with male soldiers, I see no harm in entrusting my security to her.
     
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  18. pkroyal

    pkroyal Regular Member

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    @ Singh

    For the average adult male about 42% of body weight is skeletal muscle and it’s about 35% for females.

    Experience from foreign countries is not very enlightening on the matter of women in combat. Contrary to popular belief, women in Israel, which is the only country with a female draft, are not assigned to duty as combat soldiers; they played only a limited, mainly defensive, role in the War of Independence, in 1948. A ruling by Canada's Human Rights Commission last year held that women could no longer be excluded from any military role except in submarines. The Canadian experience has not been heartening for those who seek to end the combat-exclusion rule in this country. Only seventy-nine women were recruited into the infantry training program and only one completed the course. She has since requested a transfer out of the infantry.

    The second point is, in the USA not a single woman, officer or enlisted, said that she would volunteer to be an infantry rifleman. Surely, somewhere in the U.S. Army, there are women who would want to volunteer for the infantry.

    Your analysis is unfounded, in trying to project your modern outlook you have not studied the subject in depth.

    incidentally women do'nt mensurate ( that would create geometrical problems )

    Did you butter up your boss or not ?

    ==
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  19. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    As I said Sir, the percentages would be skewed because Woman carry more essential fat.

    Description Women Men
    Essential fat 10–13% 2–5%

    Body fat percentage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I have no ways of verifying what you have written without significant investment of time and energy , of which I am in poverty at the moment.

    The question is not if they should be "forced" to, but if they want to, they should be allowed to do so.

    I have not proffered my analyses but tried to debunk some of the reasonings. If empirical methods overrule then that's another point.

    Never say don't or do'nt in your case.

    I was referring to the menstruation periods of women.

    ==
    Advantage of being your own boss is you get to eat more butter for yourself.
     
  20. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Nice points but few questions. From a distance of 100 mts. or more like on some manned frontiers, how much this "lesser silhouette" advantage counts ? Anyway, as you said, size difference between two genders is minimal, I believe the slight "silhouette" advantage is of little value, if at all.

    But, numerous disadvantages of more body fat proportion outweigh the only benefit (i.e. hunger tolerance).
    Lower reaction time ?? Becoming a prey before being able to hunt ?

    Does't this makes high testosterone level even more important ? Moreover, what's a warrior without killing extinct..,perhaps you can educate.

    Unfounded, IMHO. Look are examples below.





    Sample data (proportion of female soldiers engaged in combat w.r.t male counterparts) is too less to conclude, so this is invalid.


    Yes, this is a widely held assumption, cannot comment on its veracity.

    Completely agree. Female must be far more tolerant against torture & pain.

    But, female are believed to have an intrinsic need to share & to be heard (especially whne distressed: quite dangerous propensity, I would say) while cavemen prefer caves, when disgruntled. Cannot stress this aspect enough.

    That's what @pkroyal meant. When you multitask, degree of focus on one specialized task is reduced. Aiming is one such precision task where even breathing has to be withhelf & syncronized (at the same time, no data to prove that women are bad shooters).

    However, direct combat is as much a specialized job as a "multitaskers" one, so this is moot.

    But, basic sanitation needs extra attention & as @Ray Sir illustrated by personal example, this aspect, too, cannot be over-emphasized.

    Direct combat is not the only medium of serving nation. There are jobs galore in the Armed forces that women could possibly do better than men.

    Just by paying your Service Tax (which has scope of evasion unlike Income Tax levied on salaried ones), being a good citizen & human being & running DFI to bring together concerned individuals of disparate domains on a common platform, you are already doing a commendable service to the nation.

    P.S. Likewise, others who are striving to exterminate the Delhi Sultanate are of equal service to the nation. :)
     
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  21. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    Raja Raja Chola Had his personal body gaurds as women.

    LTTE had Female special operatives, who were part of Sea Tigers. You can understand the type of mission they are required to carry on. and they came from a typical Conservative Tamil Back ground. Even in the Final Eelam War they proved their mettle.
     

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