PLA on course for nuclear-powered aircraft carriers

[t_co]

One has to look at China's foreign policy before you get such grandiose ideas. They have chosen a path of regional aggression but global non-interference. The folly of trying to conduct anti-piracy patrols without forward basing agreements saw Chinese admirals embarrassed begging France for port calls. A CVN has a couple advantages, but range isn't one of them. It is limited by its escorts which aren't nuclear powered. The advantages are ready steam for catapults, more room for aviation fuel by eliminating bunker stores and cheaper fuel life costs.

The purpose of Chinese carriers are the same as the Soviets. To extend the range of aviation from the coast and protect vulnerable submarines. It is part of extending the defense ring to the second tier...

Since China will never have a true power projection carrier like CdG or Nimitz class, nuclear isn't really necessary.

Right, my original analogy with Germany and Britain didn't imply that China would be using its carriers for global power projection. During the First World War, Imperial Germany used its High Seas Fleet to defend its North Sea and Baltic Coasts from invasion, and also form a "fleet in being" to tie down something like 2/3rds of the main battleships of the British fleet. In that respect, Chinese plans to build up a large carrier fleet are neither grandiose nor strategically mistaken, but they do make a full-blown Sino-US arms race more likely.

Also, I'm not sure how Chinese admirals were 'begging' France for port calls, either. Such basing arrangements are routine in peacetime--and China used Sri Lankan ports for refueling during the operation...

 

[amoy]

Perhaps what Armanda mentioned of begging France for port calls refers to berthing at French naval base in Djibouti for logistical support since PLAN has no overseas bases yet


Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Armand2REP]

Right, my original analogy with Germany and Britain didn't imply that China would be using its carriers for global power projection. During the First World War, Imperial Germany used its High Seas Fleet to defend its North Sea and Baltic Coasts from invasion, and also form a "fleet in being" to tie down something like 2/3rds of the main battleships of the British fleet. In that respect, Chinese plans to build up a large carrier fleet are neither grandiose nor strategically mistaken, but they do make a full-blown Sino-US arms race more likely.

Does China need a "large" carrier fleet to project aviation a few thousand km off its shores? Simple answer= no. A few Varyag class carriers can do that job. PLAN's first indigenous carrier is going to be a copy of Varyag according to the training models. This class is going to live on for a long time in PLAN. We haven't even seen preparation for catapults.

Also, I'm not sure how Chinese admirals were 'begging' France for port calls, either. Such basing arrangements are routine in peacetime--and China used Sri Lankan ports for refueling during the operation...

Simple, PLAN hadn't planned ahead when they conducted their anti-piracy patrol and held emergency diplomatic meetings with France to get their flotilla permission to port at our base in Djibouti. Sri Lanka is 3500km from where Chinese ships were patrolling, they didn't have enough fuel to make it back.

 

[t_co]

Perhaps what Armanda mentioned of begging France for port calls refers to berthing at French naval base in Djibouti for logistical support since PLAN has no overseas bases yet


Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

As far as I know, those weren't emergency meetings or 'begging' from France--they occurred under the auspices of the Operation Enduring Freedom-HOF; what's more, any meetings that did take place were with the Republic of Djibouti, not France...

 

[t_co]

Does China need a "large" carrier fleet to project aviation a few thousand km off its shores? Simple answer= no. A few Varyag class carriers can do that job. PLAN's first indigenous carrier is going to be a copy of Varyag according to the training models. This class is going to live on for a long time in PLAN. We haven't even seen preparation for catapults.

Actually, not really--if China wants to credibly challenge US control of the 2nd Island Chain, it has to challenge US control of the Straits of Malacca and seaborne LOC from the Middle East to Japan and from the US to Japan. The only way to reliably do that (absent unrestricted submarine warfare, which led to severe diplomatic problems for Germany in WW1) is with a large CATOBAR carrier fleet.

As for whether or not China is investing in that direction--absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Simple, PLAN hadn't planned ahead when they conducted their anti-piracy patrol and held emergency diplomatic meetings with France to get their flotilla permission to port at our base in Djibouti. Sri Lanka is 3500km from where Chinese ships were patrolling, they didn't have enough fuel to make it back.

Again, those requests were conducted under the auspices of Operation Enduring Freedom HOF--there were no bilateral emergency diplomatic meetings with France. Furthermore, any negotiations that did occur happened vis a vis the Republic of Djibouti, not France, as Djibouti retains control over which naval vessels can dock at its harbor under its 1977 terms of independence.

China and Djibouti

 

[Armand2REP]

As far as I know, those weren't emergency meetings or 'begging' from France--they occurred under the auspices of the Operation Enduring Freedom-HOF; what's more, any meetings that did take place were with the Republic of Djibouti, not France...

You know wrong... France has sovereignty over the base in Djibouti. It is part of the defence pact. Secondly, Xinhua reported Admiral Yin Zhuo saying "each time, Chinese patrol ships have been forced to rely on access to a French naval base in Djibouti... we need our own base in order to fulfill our international commitments." What's more, HOF is a US mission, not a French one. That falls under the auspices of Operation Atalanta which is only for European ships. To use our base, you need our permission which we gave in order to aid the fight against piracy. Keep on begging...

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually, not really--if China wants to credibly challenge US control of the 2nd Island Chain, it has to challenge US control of the Straits of Malacca and seaborne LOC from the Middle East to Japan and from the US to Japan. The only way to reliably do that (absent unrestricted submarine warfare, which led to severe diplomatic problems for Germany in WW1) is with a large CATOBAR carrier fleet.

As for whether or not China is investing in that direction--absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Yes it is, when China makes a new development either real or imagined, it is all over CCTV for the world to marvel.

Again, those requests were conducted under the auspices of Operation Enduring Freedom HOF--there were no bilateral emergency diplomatic meetings with France. Furthermore, any negotiations that did occur happened vis a vis the Republic of Djibouti, not France, as Djibouti retains control over which naval vessels can dock at its harbor under its 1977 terms of independence.

China and Djibouti

Again they were not, Chinese vessels did not use the civilian port until late 2011. They begged France for access to our facilities in 2009 and each successive patrol until then.

Since the beginning of 2009, China has sent four naval flotillas to help escort about 1,300 Chinese and foreign ships through waters menaced by pirates operating off the coast of the East African country of Somalia, according to the Chinese news agency Xinhua. Each time, Chinese patrol ships have been forced to rely on access to a French naval base in Djibouti for resupply.

China's naval base proposal may raise suspicion - The National

 

[ice berg]

Uh, you didn't make Shi Lang. Ukraine did and they also provided the propulsion. Maybe when you can make your own engines you can think about it. Most PLAN surface ships run on French diesels.

Lol. I almost forgot. You are the troll who claimed she didnt got any engines. ROFLLLLLL

 

[Armand2REP]

Lol. I almost forgot. You are the troll who claimed she didnt got any engines. ROFLLLLLL

No, I claimed China couldn't make the engines and got them from Ukraine... which they did.

Lol. I almost forgot. You are the troll who sold his kidney for an iPad. ROFLLLLL

 

[ice berg]

No, I claimed China couldn't make the engines and got them from Ukraine... which they did.

Lol. I almost forgot. You are the troll who sold his kidney for an iPad. ROFLLLLL

LOL, no, you claimed she got no engine.

Selling kidney is better than selling brain like you did.

 

[Armand2REP]

LOL, no, you claimed she got no engine.

Selling kidney is better than selling brain like you did.

No I didn't...

You admit selling your kidney for an iPad.

 

[roma]

I still insist on my consistent viewpoint,that AC is just a police tool, instead of real war blades.....the real war blade is still nuke subs....which can decide the final of war.

AC = policng tool and acts as a huge supply chain = old school of thought where you oversupply

= pretty much outmoded war theatre strategy

. nuke subs are the guerilla warfare - gives underdog a chance to hit back and hard !

india should go for more nuke subs with ICBM - mirv

 

[amoy]

One of AC Liaoning's bases - Qingdao

 

[ice berg]

No I didn't...

You admit selling your kidney for an iPad.

And by trolling in this thread, you show how braindamaged you are.

 

[huaxia rox]

Agreed money makes life a whole lot easier, but you certainly cant compensate experience and competence with money. If that were the case, the Arabs would be building gold plated nuke subs. They dont, do they?

In time the PLAN will learn the tricks of the trade, that is expected, but to imagine dumping cash will somehow cut the time required is ridiculous thinking. US took decades despite having the largest funds.
Of course, you could hire crews from the ex-USN crews, assuming they'd be paid enough to defect. Or maybe you could copy paste it from the TV shows....oh wait, you cant copy experience....or can you?

you are right in some aspects my indian friend but just one question here.....

why indians are so into reminding chinese of the experience???and why only in AC building and AC fleet operating.....

before chinese can launch ICBM we didnt have experience.....before we can launch manned space ships we didnt have experience......before we can shoot down a settallite we didnt have experience.....before our nuclear sub can launch ballistic missiles (i mean a working sub lauching missiles from it not from some ironbox underneath the sea) we didnt have experience.....how ever indian friends like you would never like to advise chinese of those......why??

and please believe me who dosnt know exprience is important in this world???every one knows.....and actually there are no much differences here between the things mentioned above and the ongoing AC project.....we try something new and gradually we gain some exprience......

 

[DivineHeretic]

you are right in some aspects my indian friend but just one question here.....

why indians are so into reminding chinese of the experience???and why only in AC building and AC fleet operating.....

before chinese can launch ICBM we didnt have experience.....before we can launch manned space ships we didnt have experience......before we can shoot down a settallite we didnt have experience.....before our nuclear sub can launch ballistic missiles (i mean a working sub lauching missiles from it not from some ironbox underneath the sea) we didnt have experience.....how ever indian friends like you would never like to advise chinese of those......why??

and please believe me who dosnt know exprience is important in this world???every one knows.....and actually there are no much differences here between the things mentioned above and the ongoing AC project.....we try something new and gradually we gain some exprience......

I never said that the PLAAN will be unabke to operate CBGs effectively. Only that it will require an amount of time, resources and trainning unlike no other project taken untill now. And this is something you guys seem to gloss over, drunk in your new found wealth.

Go read up naval aviation from naval vessels, read up on the scale and number of crashes on take-off and landing, and you will realise the monster that is naval aviation.
The USN, the richest navy in the seven seas, was struggling with deck operations during the Vietnam war, right from basic crew SOPs to takeoff and landing sequences. And this was a force that had been undertaking naval avaition for as long as 50 years then. Just because you saw a brilliant performance in CNN or in your case CCTV! Of the USN CBG carrying out strikes into IRAQ and Afg, doesn't mean it is as easy as lighting a match.

Every single doctrine,SOP, protocol for every single man onboard the carrier will have to be defined, perfected and then implemented to perfection. Who will you copy these from? Everything will have to be ingenious, nobody will release such operations protocol. These are relatively simple things in daily carrier operation, and yet everyone is still learning and relearning, often through painful mistakes. I'm not even going into flight deck management and CBG escort SOPs, which is by far the most difficult task in a CBG operation. Its not a strategy game where you select a couple of ships and throw them at the enemy

The building up of the carrier and its escorts may be similar in difficulty to developing an ICBM or a submarine, but their operation is on its own level, with no parallel.
You should be the first to understand the significance of this, Your SSBN, despite being in service for 30 odd years has NEVER BEEN ON A SINGLE DETERRENCE PATROL. God knows how many more years will it take to garner enough experience to conduct a patrol.

Naval plans and buildup is not done in a 5 year plan, as you guys seem to want, with 4 Carriers in operation by 2016-17. The USN took roughly 20 years to amass the great White Fllet, the foundation for world domination, which again took 30 years, and a WW. Same for the Brits, and you guys want to dominate the backyard of USN in a decade.

 

[J20!]

Go read up naval aviation from naval vessels, read up on the scale and number of crashes on take-off and landing, and you will realise the monster that is naval aviation.
The USN, the richest navy in the seven seas, was struggling with deck operations during the Vietnam war, right from basic crew SOPs to takeoff and landing sequences. And this was a force that had been undertaking naval avaition for as long as 50 years then. Just because you saw a brilliant performance in CNN or in your case CCTV! Of the USN CBG carrying out strikes into IRAQ and Afg, doesn't mean it is as easy as lighting a match.

Every single doctrine,SOP, protocol for every single man onboard the carrier will have to be defined, perfected and then implemented to perfection. Who will you copy these from? Everything will have to be ingenious, nobody will release such operations protocol. These are relatively simple things in daily carrier operation, and yet everyone is still learning and relearning, often through painful mistakes. I'm not even going into flight deck management and CBG escort SOPs, which is by far the most difficult task in a CBG operation. Its not a strategy game where you select a couple of ships and throw them at the enemy

The building up of the carrier and its escorts may be similar in difficulty to developing an ICBM or a submarine, but their operation is on its own level, with no parallel.
You should be the first to understand the significance of this, Your SSBN, despite being in service for 30 odd years has NEVER BEEN ON A SINGLE DETERRENCE PATROL. God knows how many more years will it take to garner enough experience to conduct a patrol.

Naval plans and buildup is not done in a 5 year plan, as you guys seem to want, with 4 Carriers in operation by 2016-17. The USN took roughly 20 years to amass the great White Fllet, the foundation for world domination, which again took 30 years, and a WW. Same for the Brits, and you guys want to dominate the backyard of USN in a decade.

And here starts the under-estimation all over again.

So because you see J15's landing on Liaoning in 2012 you assume doctrine development and operations procedure definitions and training started that same year or two years before?

The very fact that the PLAN had the sailors, pilots and equipment to land and launch a 30 ton aircraft off a very complicated 50000 ton carrier design that was reconfigured and refitted in Chinese shipyards shows the fruit of more than a decade of doctrine development and procedure refinement as well as hardcore training and drilling of thousands of personnel, instructors and Naval academy educators.

If you've watched the video's of those landings and launches and observed the flight deck personel you'd have noticed a perfect imitation of operations doctrine on all NATO flat tops. I have no doubt in my mind that any NATO pilot could land and launch off Liaoning on the direction of that flight deck crew alone.

That doesn't just happen. It isn't the result of simply watching Youtube videos as you seem to think. PLAN carrier operations are mostly the fruit of training by the Brazilian navy on the former French carrier Sao Paolo. The Brazilian Navy has also received extensive NATO operations training for operations of their sole carrier as well.

The Liaoning was purchased 15 years ago, if you're saying that for all that time the PLAN hasn't been training and building operations doctrines for carrier class vessels and the crew on Liaoning right now are just "winging it" off youtube videos of US carrier operations then I don't think you realize just how big and organized an institution the PLAN is.

PLAN officials say the Liaoning wont be an operational asset for at least 3 years for at sea training of sailors and pilots as well as integration with its air-wing and other PLAN assets. I'll take that assessment over your opinion pieceanyday because I know the PLAN didn't just wake up in 2012 and say "Hey! Our carrier is getting ready this year, lets throw together a few sailors and pilots together".

Read up a little on China's naval aviation training efforts for pilots and sailors alike.

 

[huaxia rox]

I never said that the PLAAN will be unabke to operate CBGs effectively. Only that it will require an amount of time, resources and trainning unlike no other project taken untill now. And this is something you guys seem to gloss over, drunk in your new found wealth.

Go read up naval aviation from naval vessels, read up on the scale and number of crashes on take-off and landing, and you will realise the monster that is naval aviation.
The USN, the richest navy in the seven seas, was struggling with deck operations during the Vietnam war, right from basic crew SOPs to takeoff and landing sequences. And this was a force that had been undertaking naval avaition for as long as 50 years then. Just because you saw a brilliant performance in CNN or in your case CCTV! Of the USN CBG carrying out strikes into IRAQ and Afg, doesn't mean it is as easy as lighting a match.

Every single doctrine,SOP, protocol for every single man onboard the carrier will have to be defined, perfected and then implemented to perfection. Who will you copy these from? Everything will have to be ingenious, nobody will release such operations protocol. These are relatively simple things in daily carrier operation, and yet everyone is still learning and relearning, often through painful mistakes. I'm not even going into flight deck management and CBG escort SOPs, which is by far the most difficult task in a CBG operation. Its not a strategy game where you select a couple of ships and throw them at the enemy

The building up of the carrier and its escorts may be similar in difficulty to developing an ICBM or a submarine, but their operation is on its own level, with no parallel.
You should be the first to understand the significance of this, Your SSBN, despite being in service for 30 odd years has NEVER BEEN ON A SINGLE DETERRENCE PATROL. God knows how many more years will it take to garner enough experience to conduct a patrol.

Naval plans and buildup is not done in a 5 year plan, as you guys seem to want, with 4 Carriers in operation by 2016-17. The USN took roughly 20 years to amass the great White Fllet, the foundation for world domination, which again took 30 years, and a WW. Same for the Brits, and you guys want to dominate the backyard of USN in a decade.

1 how do you know our SSBN has not yet been put on DETERRENCE PATROL?? just because the west cant find that and wants to make sure it has not??? are you telling me an indian here is gonna lecture chinese on what do we need to do to make our SSBN??? and what about manned sapce ship??? ASAT?? any advice??? exprience sharing???why just on AC???

2 who says 'you guys seem to want, with 4 Carriers in operation by 2016-17'....where did you find this piece of info from chinese??? to build up an AC is surely different than making it operational and then fully in service......who doesnt know that??? the reason why Liaoning was said to be in service before any lanings can be made is because that ship serves a role of training ship.....we never said its ready for battle but just ready for training......anything wrong here???

3 the speed chinese are doing things on AC can surely be said not slow.....if the yardstick is set to be indian AC......just have a look at Vikramaditya....when russians gonna finish that up??? and when indian pilots gonna make your own landings with mig-29 on that??? exprience here does have its weight.........

 

[DivineHeretic]

1 how do you know our SSBN has not yet been put on DETERRENCE PATROL?? just because the west cant find that and wants to make sure it has not??? are you telling me an indian here is gonna lecture chinese on what do we need to do to make our SSBN??? and what about manned sapce ship??? ASAT?? any advice??? exprience sharing???why just on AC???

2 who says 'you guys seem to want, with 4 Carriers in operation by 2016-17'....where did you find this piece of info from chinese??? to build up an AC is surely different than making it operational and then fully in service......who doesnt know that??? the reason why Liaoning was said to be in service before any lanings can be made is because that ship serves a role of training ship.....we never said its ready for battle but just ready for training......anything wrong here???

3 the speed chinese are doing things on AC can surely be said not slow.....if the yardstick is set to be indian AC......just have a look at Vikramaditya....when russians gonna finish that up??? and when indian pilots gonna make your own landings with mig-29 on that??? exprience here does have its weight.........

The Rand corporation, Jane and other reputed sources in defence have all quoted nearly the same with regards to your SSBN. With the colossal undersea grid of listening stations, the USN, the Japanese fleet and even the SK Navy, all of whom are at your doorstep, would have picked out the movement of your sub, atleast 1/10, if there was really a deterrence patrol. They have successfully detected, and even tracked the rest of your Submarine fleet, including your SSNs, which should have atleast some commonality with your SSBN fleet.

But I'm pretty sure you'd have read about the PLAN sneaking up on a CBG exercise, and decided that you are masters of Undersea warfare., but you wont take the time to realise that this isolated incident was due to the hydrophones and listening stations being overwhelmed by the noise generated by the movement of the CBG and its auxillaries. Your subs are noisy, to put it mildly. Read up accounts by ex USN sonar operators, and even by Japanese p3c operators, your subs are amongst the easiest to find. Probably the reason your SSBN never left harbour until now.

And keep your Condesending tone about Indians out of here. As far as ASAT is concerned, you shot down an old satellite, in LEO, in a controlled environment. We've been intercepting IRBMs in exo-atmosphere, since 2006. In May this year, BMD tests will be carried out at an altitute of 200 km above sea-level, which is the altitude at which spy satellites are positioned. Now tell me, you seriously think this test will not validate ASAT capabilities?

And go listen to your fanboys, they are claiming China will induct begin inducting nuclear carriers this decade, and put it on patrols, example this thread. How long do you think it will take to do that? Build a nuclear powered one. Considering you have taken about a decade refitting the Varyag. By your standard, the Russians are far better. They've even managed to conduct flight deck operations in the short time before boilers failed.

Wrt the Vikramaditya, we hope to put it on operational patrol in late 2014, early 2015. Thats a given, and btw you do realise we've been operating CBGs for half a century now.

 

[Impluseblade]

In summary, we are beaten by India's futuristic weapons again.

The Rand corporation, Jane and other reputed sources in defence have all quoted nearly the same with regards to your SSBN. With the colossal undersea grid of listening stations, the USN, the Japanese fleet and even the SK Navy, all of whom are at your doorstep, would have picked out the movement of your sub, atleast 1/10, if there was really a deterrence patrol. They have successfully detected, and even tracked the rest of your Submarine fleet, including your SSNs, which should have atleast some commonality with your SSBN fleet.

But I'm pretty sure you'd have read about the PLAN sneaking up on a CBG exercise, and decided that you are masters of Undersea warfare., but you wont take the time to realise that this isolated incident was due to the hydrophones and listening stations being overwhelmed by the noise generated by the movement of the CBG and its auxillaries. Your subs are noisy, to put it mildly. Read up accounts by ex USN sonar operators, and even by Japanese p3c operators, your subs are amongst the easiest to find. Probably the reason your SSBN never left harbour until now.

And keep your Condesending tone about Indians out of here. As far as ASAT is concerned, you shot down an old satellite, in LEO, in a controlled environment. We've been intercepting IRBMs in exo-atmosphere, since 2006. In May this year, BMD tests will be carried out at an altitute of 200 km above sea-level, which is the altitude at which spy satellites are positioned. Now tell me, you seriously think this test will not validate ASAT capabilities?

And go listen to your fanboys, they are claiming China will induct begin inducting nuclear carriers this decade, and put it on patrols, example this thread. How long do you think it will take to do that? Build a nuclear powered one. Considering you have taken about a decade refitting the Varyag. By your standard, the Russians are far better. They've even managed to conduct flight deck operations in the short time before boilers failed.

Wrt the Vikramaditya, we hope to put it on operational patrol in late 2014, early 2015. Thats a given, and btw you do realise we've been operating CBGs for half a century now.