Personal Ideas About Cold Start`s Problems

[Yusuf]

Anyone who talks about using tactical nukes to take out warehouses or ammo dumps should not be taken seriously.

 

[sayareakd]

Anyone who talks about using tactical nukes to take out warehouses or ammo dumps should not be taken seriously.

Yeah he has no idea what will happen next.
No more sale to Pakistan after that.

 

[Sam2012]

Yeah he has no idea what will happen next.
No more sale to Pakistan after that.

Tactical nukes ,if at all PAK is out of mind & use Tactical nuke, then no first use will no more be obstacle & it will become all out Nuclear War

Do you want all out Nuclear war in your neightbour hood my chinese friend ?

 

[Ray]

One must understand that in any war, there will be loss of ground.

One must also not forget that there is the issue of 'trading space for time'.

It is not that just as soon as a border outpost capitulates, that one starts a nuclear war.

Therefore, the crux of the concept is not to cross the 'nuclear threshold'.

When is the nuclear threshold crossed?

When it become evident that a strategical asset is about to fall! that will compromise the country's existence or prestige

 

[hit&run]

There are 'fundamental' flaws in your assessment ..

1. You lacked realistic insight into the matter..
2. You lacked basic history knowledge on the Subject..
3. You lacked technical knowledge about what you talk..


1. You Skipped the first part of Cold Start and most Important is the Massive Precision Attack Campaign and Air Supremacy before the actual Ground Units moved in, The targets include important tactical infrastructure, tool and Personal, Enemy C4I, Immobilize enemy ability to response and counter, the rest of your assessment is almost useless after this point, further An Advancing Moving forces is always covered with layers of Air & Missiles Defense system and its important elements are always protected, India have tactical BMD such as S-300PMU2 for its Offensive strike forces also planning to get Iron dome and licensed produce them to protect vital installations, Guess you never knew..

2. Its silly to even assume huge tactical supply are open warehouse, Sorry in reality they are not, For Historic input Satellites are useless and can be jammed and India did this with US satellites already, Again its silly to say that Warehouse may or will be targeted by Nukes, Nukes are very important assets there use is limited and decisive & are not spend on imaginary warehouse, PA is Stupid but not total retard as you say, further a Liquid IRBM need to strike need 6-12 hours for readiness not mins, This is the reality not like your assessment sound like Comic to most here..


3. Your Assessment is a not honesty, You have skipped major points & included comical ideas to pass your opinion..

He is here to tell us India do not pose threat to China (go to his first thread) and Pakistan.

 

[Decklander]

First, Cold Start is expressly designed to be a limited, rather than total, war, so it would not fall into the CNP category as heavily as say, a Sundarji operation would.

Second, given that both sides have nuclear weapons, economic and cultural strength will not matter as much in a total war, because such a conflict would quickly escalate to rapid-fire emptying of both sides' nuclear arsenals on each others' cities. The old model of 10 nukes over 10 cities on both sides, producing 1% and 7% casualty rates for India and Pakistan, respectively, is outdated. Now, it is likely that Pakistan and India could dump anywhere from 50 to 90 nuclear warheads on each other's urban areas each, possibly wiping out over 100 million people. Of course, in such an exchange, Pakistan would likely cease to exist as an independent country--but India would not be in a position to pick up the pieces and profit, as 20-30% of its GDP would probably be gone, as would its richest and most developed cities. What's much more likely is that an outside power, most likely the UN, would come in and implement a DMZ between the two countries, and India wouldn't be able to do much about it (no UNSC seat, remember?).

Firstly cold start is not about limited war, it is about full scale war including a prolonged 6-8 weeks war. Nuke option is in built into it. CSD only attempts to reduce the time required to engage enemy into battle. The main battles will be fought by the strike corps only. The Pivot corps will launch offensives and also hold out with very rapid mobilisation of strike corps who now have advanced elements stationed closer to the borders.
The strike groups of CSD will create holes in the enemy defences which will be exploited by strike corps and to prevent encirclement of these strike groups, theire flanks are going to be protected by the attack helicopters.
The idea of CSD is to deny PA the advantage of mobilising its forces in shorter time compared to India due to its geopgraphy. That is why the time limit has been kept to 24-72 hrs. The battle will not break out all across the IB on a single day, there will be a total of about 8-10 such strike groups who will aim to create massive confusion in enemy ranks by launching attacks at different places at different time to catch PA totally offguard and unable to make out the real motive, place and time main Indian assault. We in India think that we will have over 12 hrs warning of any Pak attempt to launch nuke strike and we will be able to launch pre-emptive strike before that with a massive barrage of nukes.

 

[Ray]

Notwithstanding what is being said about Cold Start, the important point that should not be missed out is that because both the countries have nuclear weapons, the Powers that Be internationally, get COLD FEET at the very idea of a war between India and Pakistan, COLD START notwithstanding.

Therefore, as in all wars with Pakistan, the international community will intervene and bring it to a close before it becomes a full fledged war with deep penetration and all that.

This aspect should not be forgotten.

The concept itself is not there in the public domain and it is mere speculation of how it will be enacted and what are the ways the forces will sustain themselves.

 

[Ray]

My understanding of the cold start is that it takes away India's disadvantage of a long and delayed mobilisation and takes away Pakistan's advantage to have the initiative, their forces being strung close to the IB.

 

[Yusuf]

Firstly cold start is not about limited war, it is about full scale war including a prolonged 6-8 weeks war. Nuke option is in built into it. CSD only attempts to reduce the time required to engage enemy into battle. The main battles will be fought by the strike corps only. The Pivot corps will launch offensives and also hold out with very rapid mobilisation of strike corps who now have advanced elements stationed closer to the borders.
The strike groups of CSD will create holes in the enemy defences which will be exploited by strike corps and to prevent encirclement of these strike groups, theire flanks are going to be protected by the attack helicopters.
The idea of CSD is to deny PA the advantage of mobilising its forces in shorter time compared to India due to its geopgraphy. That is why the time limit has been kept to 24-72 hrs. The battle will not break out all across the IB on a single day, there will be a total of about 8-10 such strike groups who will aim to create massive confusion in enemy ranks by launching attacks at different places at different time to catch PA totally offguard and unable to make out the real motive, place and time main Indian assault. We in India think that we will have over 12 hrs warning of any Pak attempt to launch nuke strike and we will be able to launch pre-emptive strike before that with a massive barrage of nukes.

I don't think we will launch a pre-emptive nuke strike. we can take out their sites using conventional strikes.

 

[Armand2REP]

The problem is that ammo and fuel dumps are extremely soft targets; all it takes is one bomb falling into the wrong place to set everything off. Plus, it's unwise to assume too much incompetency from your enemies. Pakistani missiles won't be inaccurate forever.

One bomb is not going to set everything off. Ammo depots are spread out over several kilometres with bunkers, blast barriers, safety distances and flooding systems to prevent everything being set off. Plus, it is not too much to assume Pakistani missiles are incompetent. They can't even put together an ultralight helicopter.

 

[t_co]

There are 'fundamental' flaws in your assessment ..

1. You lacked realistic insight into the matter..
2. You lacked basic history knowledge on the Subject..
3. You lacked technical knowledge about what you talk.

I'm assuming you were the one who changed the thread title?.

1. You Skipped the first part of Cold Start and most Important is the Massive Precision Attack Campaign and Air Supremacy before the actual Ground Units moved in, The targets include important tactical infrastructure, tool and Personal, Enemy C4I, Immobilize enemy ability to response and counter, the rest of your assessment is almost useless after this point, further An Advancing Moving forces is always covered with layers of Air & Missiles Defense system and its important elements are always protected, India have tactical BMD such as S-300PMU2 for its Offensive strike forces also planning to get Iron dome and licensed produce them to protect vital installations, Guess you never knew..

Actually, I am pretty aware of S-300 system that India has. The most recent source I could find, listed below, states that India has 1 squadron, which would equal to 48 missiles.

Indian Air Force :: Strategic Air Defences in a Nuclear South-Asia

Assuming an intercept rate of about 50%, equivalent to US Patriot batteries in the 2003 Iraq War, that means 24 aerial and ballistic targets shot down. Now, India could possibly have more squadrons, but even so, Pakistan has over six hundred SRBMs, based on latest intelligence estimates. The Indian A/D system would simply get overwhelmed.

2. Its silly to even assume huge tactical supply are open warehouse, Sorry in reality they are not, For Historic input Satellites are useless and can be jammed and India did this with US satellites already, Again its silly to say that Warehouse may or will be targeted by Nukes, Nukes are very important assets there use is limited and decisive & are not spend on imaginary warehouse, PA is Stupid but not total retard as you say, further a Liquid IRBM need to strike need 6-12 hours for readiness not mins, This is the reality not like your assessment sound like Comic to most here..

In reality, they are large warehouses. I have a friend who served in the transport and logistics branches of the US Army and that's what I saw from the photos he sent.

Of course nukes are an important asset, and because logistics are so critical to the proper function of India's Cold Start, they will be targeted by these weapons. Why those warehouses over tanks? Because, tanks and mechanized infantry are highly mobile formations. It is probably beyond the ability of Pakistan to actually find and target them in real time. However, fuel and ammo dumps are not mobile, but they are just as important to winning a Cold Start war. Ergo, Pakistan will strike them. They are the most vulnerable link a ground invasion of Pakistan.

3. Your Assessment is a not honesty, You have skipped major points & included comical ideas to pass your opinion..

Interested to hear what major points we've skipped here.

 

[t_co]

Firstly cold start is not about limited war, it is about full scale war including a prolonged 6-8 weeks war. Nuke option is in built into it. CSD only attempts to reduce the time required to engage enemy into battle. The main battles will be fought by the strike corps only. The Pivot corps will launch offensives and also hold out with very rapid mobilisation of strike corps who now have advanced elements stationed closer to the borders.
The strike groups of CSD will create holes in the enemy defences which will be exploited by strike corps and to prevent encirclement of these strike groups, theire flanks are going to be protected by the attack helicopters.
The idea of CSD is to deny PA the advantage of mobilising its forces in shorter time compared to India due to its geopgraphy. That is why the time limit has been kept to 24-72 hrs. The battle will not break out all across the IB on a single day, there will be a total of about 8-10 such strike groups who will aim to create massive confusion in enemy ranks by launching attacks at different places at different time to catch PA totally offguard and unable to make out the real motive, place and time main Indian assault. We in India think that we will have over 12 hrs warning of any Pak attempt to launch nuke strike and we will be able to launch pre-emptive strike before that with a massive barrage of nukes.

If India has a 12 hour warning of a Pakistani attempt to launch a nuclear strike, but it takes 24-72 hours for IA to mobilize and strike Pakistan, then couldn't Pakistan have its nuclear forces ready to strike the IA assembly areas and supply points upon getting satellite intelligence from a friendly nation that the Indians are preparing a ground invasion?

Cold Start has one other major problem--it's visible. Most satellites are capable of detecting concentrations of armored formations since they leave large heat signatures, plus you'd be foolish to think USA/Russia/China does not have one or multiple satellites watching the Indo-Pak border every single day and counting all the tanks that are present at each army base.

 

[t_co]

Anyone who talks about using tactical nukes to take out warehouses or ammo dumps should not be taken seriously.

Why not? It was standard NATO doctrine for most of the Cold War.

 

[t_co]

One bomb is not going to set everything off. Ammo depots are spread out over several kilometres with bunkers, blast barriers, safety distances and flooding systems to prevent everything being set off.

Those things won't help against missiles loaded with cluster munitions or a nuke. Trying to load and unload trucks while anti-personnel bomblets are falling around you is nearly impossible, plus a flooded ammo dump is probably going to be disabled until it gets unflooded, which would take days.

Plus, it is not too much to assume Pakistani missiles are incompetent. They can't even put together an ultralight helicopter.

What does that have to do with ballistic missiles? Plus, couldn't Pakistan just order accurate ballistic missiles from a third party, just as India has ordered its only competent anti-missile defense, the S-300, from Russia?

 

[Yusuf]

Why not? It was standard NATO doctrine for most of the Cold War.

They realised the folly of it

 

[Decklander]

If India has a 12 hour warning of a Pakistani attempt to launch a nuclear strike, but it takes 24-72 hours for IA to mobilize and strike Pakistan, then couldn't Pakistan have its nuclear forces ready to strike the IA assembly areas and supply points upon getting satellite intelligence from a friendly nation that the Indians are preparing a ground invasion?

Cold Start has one other major problem--it's visible. Most satellites are capable of detecting concentrations of armored formations since they leave large heat signatures, plus you'd be foolish to think USA/Russia/China does not have one or multiple satellites watching the Indo-Pak border every single day and counting all the tanks that are present at each army base.

If Pakistan decides to have a nuke war, than we will still be able to launch pre-emptive nuke strike bcoz of advance warning time available to us. The scenerio I painted takes into consideration that if a go ahead for war is given and our troops move into Pakistan and Pakistan decides to go nuclear. In that case, India will carryout Pre-emptive nuke strikes and continue the assault to occupy the decimated Pak land.
You must realise that No Indian leader can afford to let pak use nukes. So either there will be no war at all but if a decision is taken to go for war, it will be with fingers on nuke buttons ready for pre-emptive strikes.

 

[hit&run]

They realised the folly of it

He missed it by more than 20 years.

 

[t_co]

They realised the folly of it

Do explain.

 

[t_co]

If Pakistan decides to have a nuke war, than we will still be able to launch pre-emptive nuke strike bcoz of advance warning time available to us. The scenerio I painted takes into consideration that if a go ahead for war is given and our troops move into Pakistan and Pakistan decides to go nuclear. In that case, India will carryout Pre-emptive nuke strikes and continue the assault to occupy the decimated Pak land.
You must realise that No Indian leader can afford to let pak use nukes. So either there will be no war at all but if a decision is taken to go for war, it will be with fingers on nuke buttons ready for pre-emptive strikes.

If Pakistan hasn't launched yet, and India makes pre-emptive nuclear strikes on Pakistan on top of mobilizing for a surprise ground invasion of Pakistan, India would have won the battle, but lost the war--India would be as ostracized as North Korea and its rise would be impossibly curtailed. Rage, WG Ewald, or any other US poster would no doubt agree.

 

[Yusuf]

Do explain.

Same as what Indian response will be if tactical nukes are used. Full blown nuke war.
Cold war saw a period where the adversaries thought they could Win nuke wars. All they got was MAD