Pentagon makes India arms development proposal

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Sep 26, 2014.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    The offer comes as Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi prepares to visit the US to discuss extending the 10-year-old bilateral defence framework for five more years.

    World Bulletin / News Desk

    The United States Pentagon has reportedly offered India the chance to enter a joint venture to develop or manufacture 34 state-of-the-art weapon systems and technologies.

    According to the Hindu Asia Times, the infra-red guided Javelin anti-tank missile, which has a range of nearly 5km, and the Scorpion mutation bomb, which has in-built sensors that allow command centres to accurately target enemy convoys, are among weapons listed in the proposal.

    The offer comes as Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi prepares to visit the US, and while India considers purchasing the Javelins, which have been tried and tested in Iraq and Afghanistan, in a deal worth $4 billion.

    South Block officials were cited saying that Indian firm Bharat Dynamics Limited will be involved in the co-production of the Javelin, in addition to the proposed co-production of Textron-manufactured micro-observers or unattended ground sensors.

    The ATK-made 120mm canon gun has also been offered for co-production, as proposed in a letter which has come to light amid meetings between US under secretary for acquisition and technologies Frank Kendall and a four-member Indian team led by defence production secretary G Mohan Kumar.

    It is expected that Modi will renew the 10-year-old bilateral defence framework for five more years during his visit ahead of talks between US defence minister Chuck Hagel defence and his Inidan counterpart Arun Jaitley, scheduled for October 8.

    Pentagon makes India arms development proposal | Asia-Pasific | Worldbulletin News
     
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  3. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    India-U.S. Discuss Joint Military Hardware Production

    NEW DELHI: Ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's U.S. visit, a high-level Defence Ministry team is there to discU.S. s the opportunities of jointly developing and manufacturing military hardware.

    A Defence Ministry team led by Secretary (Defence Production) G Mohan Kumar and including Director General (Acquisition) Asharam Sihag is in Washington and discU.S. sing joint ventures with their American counterparts, Ministry sources told PTI here.

    The Secretary (Defence Production) is also the Indian representative for the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) proposed by the U.S. under which it has offered co-production of the third-generation anti-tank Javelin missiles and other systems, they said.

    Defence cooperation is expected to be one of the major focU.S. areas during the Prime Minister's U.S. visit where India is expected to finalise the deals for procuring American attack and heavylift helicopters for around Rs 15,000 crore.

    In the last decade, India has emerged as one of the major buyers of American military equipment and has supplied equipment worth over Rs 60,000 crore in these years.

    The equipment supplied by the U.S. includes the C-17 strategic lift transport aircraft, C-130J Super Hercules special operations planes, P-8I anti-submarine warfare planes and the AN-TPQ weapon locating radars.

    The U.S. has also offered to support India in establishing an indigeno U.S. weapon manufacturing sector in line with Modi's goal of achieving self-reliance in this sector.

    The Prime Minister will leave for the U.S. tomorrow.

    India-U.S. Discuss Joint Military Hardware Production
     
  4. hitesh

    hitesh New Member

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    A country which has clause of Inspection every sold arms when ever they feel is offering state of the art weapons co development ,feels like some one is trolling with India
     
  5. Dhairya Yadav

    Dhairya Yadav Regular Member

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    this is just another strategic aim of US, to reduce Russian influence in India. Im sceptical of these weapon system purchases. We all know what happened with INS Jalshawa...
     
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  6. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    It all depends how good you are with the US and how important you are for US.
     
  7. Ky Loung

    Ky Loung Regular Member

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    The US worries about transfer of technologies to enemies hostile to the USA. Only a few countries the US trust absolutely (UK, Germany, Japan, Canada) will have a free hand.
     
  8. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    What do you mean by 'free hand'.
     
  9. ninja85

    ninja85 Regular Member

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    sure but there is huge gap india's military production if US choose to let go this opportunity and don't fills that gap somebody else will,

    then will that going to be in favor of US think.
     
  10. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    USA offered india f-35 awhile back so there must be a high level of trust?
     
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  11. Ky Loung

    Ky Loung Regular Member

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    I'm not saying the US should not sell arms to India. All I'm saying is the US worries military technologies transfers to hostile countries and use against us. That's why there are so many safety locks in place when we export arms. For example, I'll go to jail if I ship a $25 made in China optic scope out of the country. I need permission from the state department to ship the optic out of the USA. It doesn't matter if it a company or individual doing it.

    I personally think these type of regulation is hurting US arms exports and jobs. It put the US at a disadvantage. I would like the export regulation to scale back IMO.

    ITAR (International Traffic In Arms Regulations)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  12. Ky Loung

    Ky Loung Regular Member

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    That's depend on the version. Trusted allies don't get the downgraded export version. With that said even if it downgraded it is better than what the Russian are offering IMO.

    Do you know why India turn down the F-35? F-35 will give India air superiority over Pakistan and especially China. South Korea was offer the F-35 and they took it without blinking. We all know the F-35 will be primary use against China by the South Koreans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  13. Rushil51

    Rushil51 Regular Member

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    I am not an expert in all the technical knowledge regarding aircrafts but can we really compare PAK-FA/FGFA with F-35? Isn't FGFA for air superiority? FGFA and F-35 belong to different categories IMO.We already have the air-superiority against Pakistan but not against China. I am not sure but I guess we turned down F-35 for 2 reason:-

    1.) Offer came pretty late. By the time the offer arrived,we had already started working on FGFA. I don't think we really need(or may be we can't afford) 2 different 5th gen aircraft.

    2.)It was offered to India to make sure we choose F-16 for MMRCA. We had to buy the F-16 first which was certainly not gonna happen.

    Anyways there were reports recently which said that Indian Navy have shown interest in F-35B or C.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  14. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    South Korea took the offer without blinking because South Korea is a vassal state of US...SK can not say "NO" to whatever its master asks from it. India is an independent nation with pride and backbone. It can say "NO..thanks" to exorbitantly price piece of junk with engine problems from the very start.
    SU-30s, FGFAs can give a lot of air superiority if mass produced in India with a low price tag and TOT. By the way, who told you India doesnot have air superiority over Pakistani rusted ,old F-16s. China and India are reaching near equality in air power..just watch next few years.
     
  15. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    I do not think under current laws in US any joint development of military hardware or straight purchase is possible, non lethal weapons like cargo planes, or long haul and heavy lift helicopter or stripped down attack helicopters is possible. Even in these cases US can withhold spares and render them useless. Such are the pulls and pushes of the US Administration and US Congress.

    Nobody makes a huge investment in India including India's own businessmen, later to find that US will not let exports of the output to third countries. Without significant exports any investment in factories is useless.

    There are only a few ways out; same as Israel did it 30 years back. The latter asked Jewish scientists and engineer to come to Israel and work on projects they knew well and developed high technology armaments. This continued until Israel was self sustained. This scheme had US government's blessings. No US laws existed which prevented scientists from working in Israel for a period of time and then returning home to USA. There may be plenty of scientists of Indian origin working in defence industry who could be induced to come to India and work on high technology projects for a duration and then return. It will circumvent all those intrusive US laws.

    There is a danger that engineers lke A Q Khan will decamp with most secret designs and supplier list and build their own nuclear bombs. Ofcourse A Q Khan never returned to Holland and Urenco. But Indian engineers by design would be returned back to US, hence preventing theft of sensitive data.
     
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  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The IAF preferred the FGFA over the F-35. It is much more advanced than the F-35 as far as preliminary specs are concerned, mach ~2 supercruise, large internal payload, 23+ Km service ceiling, ~4000 Km range, supermaneuverability etc. Not to mention we get development and ownership rights.

    And LM did not bid with the F-35 for the MRCA tender, they chose to participate with the F-16 instead.

    The IN is still interested in the F-35. A new tender will be out soon for new generation aircraft. So LM can bid with both the F-35B and the F-35C.
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    There are different 3 versions of f-35 not major differences in operational capability.
    India turned down f-35 because pakfa is in development.
     
  18. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think US weapons are not good for India. India needs to develop own R&D and manufacturing base.

    US weapons are no more than band-aid which can stop the bleeding but cannot cure a big wound.

    It is better for India to remain weak and confined than to depend on others. American weapons give India a false sense of safety without any actual flexibility of use.
     
  19. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    We accept that American technology is very advanced in aviation field. We really cannot make a differentiation - F-35 vs PAKFA unless all facts are in front of us.

    The problem with India is different: India needs weapons according to its unique situation. Indian planes will always carry some Indian made components so India needs significant knowledge of the planes it buys.
     
  20. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

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    This is wonderful and serves the interests of both nations. A very good move for India and the USA both.

    1. Indians seem to have a lot of paranoia about the USA, some of this is understandable given our cold-war histories but there seems to be a lot of misinformation and a lack of knowledge when it comes to the USA.

    2. The USA is good for India in every conceivable way, Indians need to drop these strange ideas of working with the USA our parents generation talked themselves into because allying with the USA during their era was not an option.

    3. The F-35 issue could fill an entire article:
    -the USA badly needs partners to keep the costs down per fighter because so many nations have cut orders on the fighter
    -it is an excellent jet in some ways and attempts to serve every-role. For a nation like India with a massive military a dedicated fighter would be much more useful than the needs of a nation like France or England which is happy with a few 100 jets, that fill pretty much any role and don't expect to use them in serious combat.
    -PAK-FA is already in the works, better politically as it is co-development and not just purchase, comes with transfer of tech, Indian jobs, dedicated air superiority fighter, little red-tape and issues the way the F-35 would be massively burdened with etc...

    4. I'm all for indigenization, but realize what a slow and difficult process it is. India doesn't have the luxury of waiting 60 years for its military industrial sector to build up, as India faces current security threats and so a combination of partnering with nations on high-end weapons systems should be combined with India's own native efforts. What is even more important that Indian self development is Indian PRODUCTION. India needs the industrial base to produce weapons, regardless of them being native or under license from other nations, as long as nearly the entire weapons system can be manufactured locally. This serves two benefits, the most important being that India can manufacture military hardware in times of war to replace lost tanks, jets etc... the industrial base exists and expands so to be ready to manufacture Indians indigenous military hardware when it has sufficiently advanced.

    -my overall point is, people push for like a 1000 LCA's or Indian made tanks, better we design and produce a few, then go back and redesign them over and over again improving constantly until we have a truly world class product, rather than a bunch of mediocre tanks/jets produced locally. While we are waiting for our world class products to be developed the gap can be filled with world class jets/tanks etc... from other parts of the world as long as they are built in India under license, so that are factories are in place to mass produce once our own products improve.
     
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  21. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    India can have 3 FGFA (PAKFA) for the price of 1 F-35. Moreover, it comes with joint production and TOT ,so later ,FGFA can be mass produced inside India. F-35 has engine problems and is very expensive for its kind.
     

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