PAS 2011: India nears attack helicopter decision (AH-64D or the Mi-28NE)

[Kunal Biswas]

Question, what is the tonnage done on one trip, what are the dimensions of that trip, the all above can be done byt Chinook more efficiently and cheaply. If 99% of all trips are below 12,000 tonnes, and in a dimension which chinook can accomdate, is there a need of a fleet of helicopters, which gives you less than 30% uptime at considerable cost?

See, it depends on where u r moving, Let say ladak, You need to take a balanced load with taking the weight of the fuel taken so that u can climb safely to the destination, Again if you are moving somewhere in rajasthan, U have to do the same consideration , These Heavy helos will operate everywhere IA needs them..

Once decided on the purchase of equipment, Every thing regarding it are a done job with the agreement so that when operation, Every thing go smooth, If helos operate ok, Troops on ground will be happy..


As Exapmle over Ladak, MI-26 transport multiple 105 guns, Moving L70 guns to highest Airfields, Moving 100men at a mountain post with all equipment like heavy motar and other in one trip..

Also over Rajasthan, lets say BMP-2 being transported so does AAA guns, in total sometime the count can go up to +36000kgs..

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

there is no comparison of chinook with mi-26.the fact that mi-26 can lift a chinook in afghanistan speaks volumes.the role of these heavy helicopters in indian military doctrine is only to lift heavy military supplies to forward areas,logistic back-up etc.we have hardly fought any war since kargil and role of our special forces is also limited to counter insurgency.hence special forces gear and csar missions are hardly of any substance to us unlike america.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

AH-64 is too high tech for us imho.

That`s no point to say. We cant run from the modern technology or you think our pilots are not capable of handling high tech avionics.Simply absurd.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Obviously the AH-64 is going to win the contract, it is out performs in most critical aspects and you dont need a crystal ball to say which side is this deal is going to go.

 

[Adux]

there is no comparison of chinook with mi-26.the fact that mi-26 can lift a chinook in afghanistan speaks volumes.the role of these heavy helicopters in indian military doctrine is only to lift heavy military supplies to forward areas,logistic back-up etc.we have hardly fought any war since kargil and role of our special forces is also limited to counter insurgency.hence special forces gear and csar missions are hardly of any substance to us unlike america.

In a War Secnario, it doesnt matter how much you can lift, What if Mi-26 lifts 20,000 Kgs, but then is not avialable for the next 7 missions and in the hanger, while Chinook lifts for another 5 missions without seeing the hanger, So Chinook lifts 60,000 very 5 missions, but mi-26 lifts only 20,000 kg. That is how the Airforce and its logistics division looks at it, that is how the army looks at it

 

[Adux]

See, it depends on where u r moving, Let say ladak, You need to take a balanced load with taking the weight of the fuel taken so that u can climb safely to the destination, Again if you are moving somewhere in rajasthan, U have to do the same consideration , These Heavy helos will operate everywhere IA needs them..

Once decided on the purchase of equipment, Every thing regarding it are a done job with the agreement so that when operation, Every thing go smooth, If helos operate ok, Troops on ground will be happy..


As Exapmle over Ladak, MI-26 transport multiple 105 guns, Moving L70 guns to highest Airfields, Moving 100men at a mountain post with all equipment like heavy motar and other in one trip..

Also over Rajasthan, lets say BMP-2 being transported so does AAA guns, in total sometime the count can go up to +36000kgs..

Good reply, but you forgot the most fundamental question, how often?

 

[pmaitra]

there is no comparison of chinook with mi-26.the fact that mi-26 can lift a chinook in afghanistan speaks volumes.the role of these heavy helicopters in indian military doctrine is only to lift heavy military supplies to forward areas,logistic back-up etc.we have hardly fought any war since kargil and role of our special forces is also limited to counter insurgency.hence special forces gear and csar missions are hardly of any substance to us unlike america.

In a War Secnario, it doesnt matter how much you can lift, What if Mi-26 lifts 20,000 Kgs, but then is not avialable for the next 7 missions and in the hanger, while Chinook lifts for another 5 missions without seeing the hanger, So Chinook lifts 60,000 very 5 missions, but mi-26 lifts only 20,000 kg. That is how the Airforce and its logistics division looks at it, that is how the army looks at it

The picture is from war scenario, Afghanistan:

@Adux, have you any citation to support the claim that Mil-26 has to be in the hangar after each mission? For the 'next 7 missions' [sic.], what is the time interval between two consecutive missions? I am trying to do an objective evaluation to determine how long Mil-26 has to spend in the hangar after each mission.

 

[sayareakd]

is that real pic ??? Mi 26 and chinook are not in same angle one is near and other is far.

 

[pmaitra]

is that real pic ??? Mi 26 and chinook are not in same angle one is near and other is far.

Trust me, it is real.

Please check out these video:


And also this one to get a feel of its size:

 

[Archer]

Mi-28 NE is a beast of a chopper, and its airframe is one of the most robust ever designed. Only issue is its electronics are not upto par and even Russian test crew are yet to be completely satisfied with it. Its built around the Soviet concept of acting like a fixed wing CAS, shoot on the move, platform able to deal with a lot of trash fire. In contrast, Ah-64 is nowhere as rugged, but its electronics, especially in the Longbow variant are world class, in fact worldleading. The UK reports the Longbow radar can TWS 128 targets, and has GMTI et al modes able to surveill large areas. In Afghanistan, UK crews have come to rely heavily on the Westland derivative of the Apache (UK customized its Ah-64Ds for a local jobs aspect). Overall, in my opinion, I think the Ah-64 will win this, as the Apache's avionics and systems are far ahead those on the Mi-28, whose systems won't be at the same level of competence.

 

[Adux]

IAF had acquired half a dozen Mi 26 choppers for ferrying supplies to the Himalayas but hardly a couple of them are now able to fly, one problem being the lack of spares as its manufacturing facilities have closed down after the disintegration of the Soviet Union 20 years back

HindustanTimes-Print

The Mi-26 was procured to meet the Heavy Lift requirements of the IAF. A requirement of six helicopters was projected and the first two Helicopters were procured at a cost of Rs 18 Cr each in May 1986. No. 126 Helicopter Flight was raised the same month to operate the type. The Flight has a Unit Establishment of 18 Officers, 142 airmen and 28 NCs(E) and four Helicopters. The other two helicopters were procured and inducted in February 1989 at a cost of approx Rs 22.71 Cr each. Due to low utilisation, the plan to procure two more helicopters was dropped. For the total fleet of four helicopters, twelve engines were procured.

Serviceability of the Helicopter suffered in the 90s, at one point of time in 1995-96, as many as three of the four helicopters remaining on ground. Serviceability gradually fell in the mid 90s from a high of 61% down to 40%. The helicopters also remained underutilised. Against a projected utilisation rate of 50 hours per month per helicopter, the average utilisation hovered around 11 to 22 hours per month.

The first two Helicopters procured in 1986 were due for an overhaul in 1990. The two helicopters were ferried to Russia for overhaul in June 1991 and were returned in August 1993.

The fourth Helicopter came up for overhaul in October 1996 and was given an extension of an year after maintenance by the Base Repair Depot. However the helicopter suffered some damage after one of the undercarriage struts failed in August 1997. The damaged helicopter was subsequently overhauled by the manufacturer in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 16.8 Crores.

Mil Mi-26 Halo

To be honest Mi-26 in terms of availability and versatility cannot be even compared to the chinook (it also has issues, as will most platforms, but it is far far better than Mi-26), Also Chinook can be used in fast insertions and in the battlefield, Mi is too slow cumbersome for that.

Livefist: Boeing presentation to IAF comparing Chinook with Mi-26

 

[Immanuel]

Apache's entire air frame is meant to with stand 12.7mm or .50 cal impact, the only difference in proetection level between ah-64 and mi-28 are that the mi-28 has cockpit glass capable of wtihstanding 12.7mm impacts but not sure about the ah-64. overall ah-64 has a powerful advantage in avionics, networking and even weapons. combine the ah-64 with hellfires, stingers and other weapons, its a deadly asset that can cause havoc on the battlefield against tanks, bunkers, etc.

US government details AH-64D bid for Indian air force contract

 

[vikramrana_1812]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Good reply, but you forgot the most fundamental question, how often?

When ever needed..

Their is nothing fixed, Even its fixed its confidential..

 

[vikramrana_1812]

 

[Adux]

When ever needed..

Their is nothing fixed, Even its fixed its confidential..

The fact is, it is. IA/IAF does know its cargo dimensions and weight needs for 95% of its flight ( looking at the log book would do that job), if it falls in the Chinook category, they would buy it, simply the sheer easiness, versatility, and uptime the Chinook would provide is something Mi-26 cannot do. Just because it can carry over-sized cargo which falls under 5% of the total required, but while messing about the rest of 95% doesnt make sense to them, For every Mi-26 up, there is 4 birds under repair,

 

[ace009]

I would think 5-6 Mi-26s should be enough for IA/ IAF. For the rest (real operations) they should get the Apache in greater numbers (maybe 25 for IA and 25 for IAF).

 

[Adux]

I would think 5-6 Mi-26s should be enough for IA/ IAF. For the rest (real operations) they should get the Apache in greater numbers (maybe 25 for IA and 25 for IAF).

There is a real need for a reliable heavy rotor lift capacity. Current 6 Mi-26 are not able to perform that task to the satisfaction IAF, nor are the numbers adequate to them. Airlift and CAS is what Indian Army really requires. It has ordered 100 LCH's, that should give us a small hint at what IA is thinking, and what they think about IAF when it comes to their tactical operational requirements.

 

[JBH22]

That`s no point to say. We cant run from the modern technology or you think our pilots are not capable of handling high tech avionics.Simply absurd.

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think about the local context take into a/c that all these would be imported can you do some jugaad solutions with hi tech I better have a chopper where you can easily do some modifications and make it continue work..Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Parthy]