Partition & Reunification

What do you all Feel about Indo-Pak Unification?

  • Agree to the Unification

    Votes: 18 20.9%
  • Oppose the Unification

    Votes: 66 76.7%
  • Not Decided on it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Just dont care!

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Total voters
    86

Sabir

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Can you still remember Baby Noor....It happened six years ago...Read this...isn't there ray of hope...!


Indians' love for Baby Noor moves ultra to confess crime.PTI -
The Press Trust of India Ltd.| September 18, 2003 |


New Delhi, Sep 18 (PTI) The love Indians showered on baby Noor did not go waste.

Moved by the same, a militant trained by Pakistan's Harkat-Ul-Jehadi-e-Islami (HUJI) on Thursday confessed his guilt in a city court and expressed the desire to lead a new life - one away from the paths of terror and destruction.

"I was moved by the gesture shown by Indians towards Noor, who had come to Bangalore for a heart surgery," a remorseful Mohd Ashraf alias Mohd Shakeel told Additional Sessions Judge S N Dhingra confessing his crime.

Ashraf had been charged under Prevention of Terrorism Act and Indian Penal Code for allegedly conspiring to kill President A P J Abdul Kalam and kidnap cricketers Sachin Tendulkar and Sourav Ganguly.

A resident of Layya village in Pakistan's Punjab province, Ashraf told the court he wanted to reciprocate the gesture shown by Indians and spread the message of goodwill among his countrymen.
 

qsaark

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@Qsaark--There is no point talking about past incidents.
Let's talk about current facts.
Does current situation allow for a INDO-PAK unification.
Hasn't it become a hub of terrorist activities.There are no permanent enemies and
friends in the real world.The US used Pakistan as it wanted and in turn Pakistan got what it wanted.Pak can't complain now. we can't rest on past laurels, can we ?

As facts change, so will the relations. 9/11 takes place and you expect the US not to wake up to new realities and review it's relations with Pakistan ?
History if ignored is what determines the ills of the present. This present becomes a past eventually and again if ignored shapes up the ills of the future.

In my opinion, it is very important to read the history as the study of the history can very much make or break the present.

There are several forms of re-unification. If we are talking about the physical re-unification of the three countries, than I think the current situation does not favor any re-unification. However, if we are talking about the possibility of re-unification based on the ideas, intentions, and eventual goals of the European Union, than I think it is very much possible.

As far as Pakistan becomes the hub of the terrorism is concerned, this also has lot to do with the past. Even though I do not agree with this ‘terrorism hub’ thing. If Pakistan remained a democracy, and if the Military Dictatorships were not encouraged and rewarded by their Western Masters, Pakistan was never going to become a hub of terrorism or what not. Extremism flourish in a particular environment, in a particular culture. The environment of fear and oppression and the culture of dictatorship always results in one or other type of extremism. In some places it is religious, and in other places it is political or social. Pakistan did not see any religious extremism until the early 1980s and onwards. What was the culture of Pakistan in the 60s and 70s? You may want to see some Television Dramas of that era. Pubs were not common but not banned as well.

Things got changed and changed feverishly during the time of General Zia ul Haque. It is very easy for the West and the America to put all the blame on Pakistan, but is it not the hard fact that the United States and her Western allies fully supported the Dictatorial regime of Zia ul Haque? Is it not the fact of the matter that the USA and her allies gave millions of dollars and encouraged the GoP to establish a network of religious Schools along the entire Afghan Pakistan border? Is it also not true that as soon as the last Russian soldier crossed the river Oxus, the USA and her allies turned their backs towards Pakistan and left her alone to deal with millions of Afghan refugees and thousands of the madrassas?

You said permanent friends, well if this is the permanent friendship of America, than who needs permanent enemies. But again, blaming and counter-blaming is not going to take no one no where. The time has come not for the USA, but for Pakistan to wakeup and review her relationships with her so-called friends.
 

tharikiran

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Yes, we are on our way. Don't want to convert this thread into a Economics thread.

The current Pakistan is not a secular state said:
How do you plan to change a Islamic state into a secular state ?
Just by merging borders ?



[QUOTE=If you think Pakistan is less of a threat than a chaotic Afghanistan, and that you’re better-off having Pakistan as your neighbor, you really need some logical thinking. With Afghanistan as our new neighbor, and given how it relies on foreign military for its security, we stand a better chance of neutralizing the rogue elements emanating from Afghanistan once and for all. We will share a border, and our troops in the ‘enemy territory’ will have direct, logistical support from the mainland. Lack of political will, a hostile neighbor in India, and limited military ordinance are some of the reasons why Pakistan isn’t able to solve the Afghanistan problem.


If we share borders with Afghanistan and INDO-PAK is reunited our troops won't be fighting in "Enemy territory". We will be fighting in our territory and I don't want that.you are aware US itself is struggling.Forget Taliban, we have naxals operating in our land and we are not able to do anything. At least, naxals go after police and not civilians in general.



Pakistan doesn’t need reconstruction. Its infrastructure and state machinery is intact. Economic dilution is really a short-term problem. As for defense said:
I do agree with some of the points here. But, don't you think, the bigger the army, the difficult it is to feed it and maintain it.



[QUOTE=You know, by thinking that radicalization of Islam is ‘here to stay’ and a ‘fact’ (dogmatic truth), you’re effectively giving into them. That’s exactly what they want you to believe (that they’re invincible, irreversible), while the truth is far from it. Islamic radicalization is a product of social oppression, since ‘radicalization’ itself is sought as a last-resort by them to hurdle up and face a challenge. Today their challenge is India, and the people they’re mislead to believe are ‘oppressed’ in Indian Kashmir, who need ‘freedom’. When you eliminate their problems, their return to moderate Islam will be as quick as their transition to radicalism. Dissolve our boundaries, and you will solve the Kashmir problem (no more LOC, nothing to fight for). Give the youth proper education, give them jobs, give them proper social support structures, and you solve the need for every young man who is unable to make a decent and peaceful career to opt for radicalism.

As for the Taliban, the very fact that they don’t control Kabul anymore shows that they’re not here to stay, and are a very fragile, ill-equipped, and ill-trained enemy. We will be able to crush them with the same ease with which China crushes radical elements within its state.

I've been as reasonable with my arguments as possible. Let's hope it helps.

Your basic premise that by dissolving boundaries problems{LOC, Kashmir} will be solved is flawed.By saying "Islamic Terrorism is here to stay", I am only accepting facts.By saying damage will be short term are you willing to let the terrorists blow up your fellow country men.In how many years are we going to clear the Taliban ? 1 year or 10 years. How long are we willing to bleed ?

The terrorists we have have in Kashmir are pretty much paid ones.I do believe Kashmir will be peaceful again.
How do we plan to protect the youth/rest of India from the teachings of the mullah ?

We have ports. We will do business through the seas.It doesn't matter to be landlocked on the North west and North East.

Even if there is a revolt/political will in Pakistan, will the army and the ISI allow reunification ?
 

qsaark

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So what is forming?

It is a handful Pak muslim elites + Part of Pak Army + Mullahs Vs Rest of sub-continent

Not very difficult.....if common Pakistani wake up and take the initiative...atleast to earn their own rights.
It is a handful Pak Muslim elites + Part of Pak Army + Mullahs + West/USA Vs Rest of the sub-continent.

Now when you add West/USA in the equation, it suddenly becomes too difficult. Common Pakistanis are woken up, the problem with them is, no power. But InshaAllah, the day is not that far when these oppressed Pakistani masses will bring these ruling vultures down with force, and than you will see, an entirely new relationship will begin between the India and Pakistan.
 

Rajan

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Re-unification for sure but not with those pakistanis. :blum3: They always claim that they are from a foreign land and conquered the 'Hindu land'. They even cannot decide who are their fore-father!!!! lol We should take our land back and send those pakistanis to their father's land. :india:
 

mattster

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Qsaark......you can probably make an honest argument that many Indian Muslims including Jinnah at the time of partition did not support the idea of a separate Muslim state, and were forced into it due to the prevailing political conditions. I respect that opinion.

I have met a few older Pakistanis here in the US and elsewhere who have voiced similar views on the partition.

Regardless of what happened.....the past is the past.....and both countries have taken vastly different trajectories. The may have similar social problems, but in terms of national character - Pakistan and India have moved in very separate directions.

In fact they are so far apart, that I honestly cant even see a tight economic and defensive coalition like the EU ever happening. Forget about military coalition....I dont even think that India, Pakistan , Bangladesh and Sri-Lanka can even form an effective economic coalition.

The only countries that i see as potential coalition partners are Sri-Lanka and maybe Nepal if they get rid of the Maoists.
 
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So far we have the major obstacles as religious and political. The religious may not be as large as the political, Hindus and Muslims have lived in both countries so this is not anything major unless there are power struggles between Paksitani and Indian mullahs.
The political obstacle is a bigger one some questions that would arise are:
what would be the division of power?
would the new leadership be decided by the whole new huge population?
would the ruling Military/ISI be willing to give up their power base what would their new positions be?
what would be the interference by the outside powers be ?
how would the new military be structured?
how would neighboring countries view this new development?
would both countries give up their arsenals or combine them?

these are some of the other questions that would arise. others may come up with a lot more.
 

tarunraju

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The point of this thread really is to hypothesize on the pros and cons of reunification. Partition indeed is the single biggest national tragedy. Probably the lives of the victims of patition, and the countless conflicts that followed between the two countries will not go in vain when we put a stop to this never-ending saga. Don't forget that we (freedom fighters of Pakistan and India) fought for the freedom of everything between Quetta to Itanagar. We fought the British for Karachi, Mumbai, Lahore and Delhi.

In its present form, guaranteed peace between the two countries, and relations similar to those between Eurozone countries, surprisingly looks more of a 'far-sight', than a reunification is. Right now we're at a stalemate, and are trying too hard, and wasting too much money to find a way around our stalemates.
 

Sabir

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Re-unification for sure but not with those pakistanis. :blum3: They always claim that they are from a foreign land and conquered the 'Hindu land'. They even cannot decide who are their fore-father!!!! lol We should take our land back and send those pakistanis to their father's land. :india:
Some stupid Pakistani say such things and some more stupid Indian quote it to generalize all Pakistani and to spoil a good mutualy respective discussion. i am sorry but I had to complain against it.
 

tharikiran

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Pakistan to wakeup and review her relationships with her so-called friends.

Pakistan is not in a state to review it's relations with the US or other friends. It's dependent on US/ other nations funds.
 

qsaark

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Pakistan to wakeup and review her relationships with her so-called friends.

Pakistan is not in a state to review it's relations with the US or other friends. It's dependent on US/ other nations funds.
Well I don’t agree with your analysis of the situation. What worst can happen to Pakistan if she does not get the help or aid from the so called friends? Pakistan would have to file for bankruptcy as did the Argentine? What else? Those who have invested in Pakistan would let it happen?

Pakistan is very much in a state to wake up and review its relations with any country. However, all that is needed is some patriotism, and some self sacrifice. The nation is prepared for this but not the GoP. And what GoP, the one that came into power as a result of a 'deal' brokered by the USA/UK/KSA?
 

tarunraju

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Yes, we are on our way. Don't want to convert this thread into a Economics thread.
No, we are not on our way. Don't want to convert this thread into a Economics thread.

How do you plan to change a Islamic state into a secular state ?
Just by merging borders ?
Territorial change induces gradual social change. Start off with the same model that binds Hong Kong and China (moderated movement of people and equity). Conduct the same kind of national integration programmes that helped in cementing the then embryonic Indian dominion with newly acceded territories, such as Jammu and Kashmir, Hyderabad State, etc. In due course of time the integration is complete. The German reunification involved transfers of people and equity. Disparities in social structures, and government models took the place the religious disparities we have now. It' will be a longer haul.

If we share borders with Afghanistan and INDO-PAK is reunited our troops won't be fighting in "Enemy territory". We will be fighting in our territory and I don't want that.you are aware US itself is struggling.Forget Taliban, we have naxals operating in our land and we are not able to do anything. At least, naxals go after police and not civilians in general.
No, I'm talking about fighting the Taliban in their backyard. With political will and equipment, throwing them out of our territory won't be difficult. Those terrains aren't even fit for guerrilla warfare. With radical groups such as Naxelites still posing a problem, there is every reason for you to be skeptical, but really, fighting Naxals and Maoists are merely determined by political will, and nothing else. Recent counter-Naxal and counter-Maoist operations bear testimony to that.

I do agree with some of the points here. But, don't you think, the bigger the army, the difficult it is to feed it and maintain it.
How so? Pakistan doesn't leave any stone unturned when it comes to keeping its troops' morale high. For starters, they're paid and fed. With reunification, comes unifications of our equity, and we will hence be able to not only sustain the larger armed forces, but also keep its development/modernisation ticking.


The terrorists we have have in Kashmir are pretty much paid ones.I do believe Kashmir will be peaceful again.
How do we plan to protect the youth/rest of India from the teachings of the mullah ?
Simple, tell them that Allah is superior to Mullah, which is a fact. Moderate Muslims follow Allah's Islam, while Extremists follow Mullah's Islam. Mullahs can abuse their sacred position to mislead the youth, while Allah is pure, unassailable truth.

We have ports. We will do business through the seas.It doesn't matter to be landlocked on the North west and North East.
Oh it has its advantages, We can peacefully set up gas pipelines and rail/road trade-routes with our then neighbours, which will only help our economy.

Even if there is a revolt/political will in Pakistan, will the army and the ISI allow reunification ?
The Pakistani Army ISI combine really isn't as powerful as a military Junta. They know the consequences of trying to be one. It's just that the political class is submissive it and it projects them to be stronger than they are. Whoever is actually running the country, the democratic government is the abstraction layer to the people. But yes, point well taken.
 

tharikiran

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Well I don’t agree with your analysis of the situation. What worst can happen to Pakistan if she does not get the help or aid from the so called friends? Pakistan would have to file for bankruptcy as did the Argentine? What else? Those who have invested in Pakistan would let it happen?

Pakistan is very much in a state to wake up and review its relations with any country. However, all that is needed is some patriotism, and some self sacrifice. The nation is prepared for this but not the GoP. And what GoP, the one that came into power as a result of a 'deal' brokered by the USA/UK/KSA?
Is this the patriot in you speaking. If Pakistan really has the nerves, then whats stopping it from putting its foot down and letting the US know, "No drone strikes on my land and airspace " period. Is there any proof that the current GOP was placed by western powers ? Don't tell me Musharaff and all your past dictators came through/placed by western powers.
 

tharikiran

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INDO-PAK is not Hong kong- china to get reunited and reconciled.
What are you going to answer to all the widows and mothers and sisters of soldiers who died in the wars and in kashmir.
If some one tells me tomorrow, kim Jong 2 died and I will believe there is a good chance of reconciliation between North and South korea.
 

tarunraju

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INDO-PAK is not Hong kong- china to get reunited and reconciled.
It's not. It's of nearly the same proportions of the two German states.

What are you going to answer to all the widows and mothers and sister of soldiers who died in the wars and in Kashmir?.
That there will be no more widows, mothers and sisters of soldiers killed for Kashmir's sake, on either sides. It will make them happy.
 

qsaark

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Is this the patriot in you speaking. If Pakistan really has the nerves, then whats stopping it from putting its foot down and letting the US know, "No drone strikes on my land and airspace " period
. If there was a true democratic government in power, she could have taken this matter to the UNSC. That is the most that could have been done. However, this is a regime that came into power through a shady ‘deal’ so no such thing can be and should be expected.

Is there any proof that the current GOP was placed by western powers ? Don't tell me Musharaff and all your past dictators came through/placed by western powers.
Have you heard of NRO? Have you followed up the interviews given by the Dictator Musharraf and the present President Zardari? and the press briefings by Mr. Holbrook and Mrs. Clinton?
 

tharikiran

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That there will be no more widows, mothers and sisters of soldiers killed for Kashmir's sake anymore, on either sides. It will make them happy.
you are wrong. With the reunification, we will busy cleaning the Taliban and the Islamic terrorists. With more widows to follow for decades.

It's not. It's of nearly the same proportions of the two German states.

I am not at all talking about Hong Kong -China in physical dimensions at all.
you had Hong kong populated by people from China. It had a movie industry. Guess, it was normal.Just Chinese living in another Chinese city.

You had such similarities between West and East Germany too.

India- Pakistan are different. Some areas the culture is the same and in others it's not.

And therefore existing examples of reunification do not work and cannot be justified in INDO-PAK context.
 

NSG_Blackcats

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I know we are discussing the pros and cons of a hypothetical situation that is reunion of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. But after 8 pages of discussion not a single post about Bangladesh. I feel culturally and tradition wise Bangladesh is closer to India. If we ignore some lately grown radical elements in Bangladesh it is a very peaceful country.

It is my personal view there are lot of things to be done before we can even think of a reunion. We have a regional forum called SAARC. We are yet to have a full understanding in SAAEC for a FTA within members. India and Pakistan are the two biggest nations within SAARC. India has granted Pakistan the MFN (Most Favored Nation) Status and never revoked it even after Kargil and 26/11. But Pakistan is yet to provide that status to India. If we don’t have the faith to do business with each other how can we think of a reunion? Even if people of both the countries want closer relations we must not forget the respective governments have to prepare the ground work.

Now take the case of tourism. How many Indians wish to spend their vacations in Pakistan and Bangladesh and same is vice-versa. Many Indian prefer SriLanka, Mauritius instead; even though both Pakistan and Bangladesh have some great place. If we are not eager to spend even our holidays in Pakistan and Bangladesh how can we think about reunion?

There was a proposal of soft border between Jammu and Kashmir and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir so that families living in both sides could easily meet each other. But there is not so great progress on this front. Now if we cannot implement soft border in a single state we must not imagine reunion.

It sounds very well when analyst says there should be more people to people contact, more cultural exchanges; the reality is, it will never leads us to reunion. It may normalize our relationship. Even if the relations get normalized to some extent one more attack and we are back to square one. We have to realize unless until there are some gusty politicians in both India and Pakistan we will never have normal relationship. History may repeat or may not repeat itself. But I feel there will not be another Atal Bihari Vajpayee who will take a bus journey to Pakistan in near future.
 

tharikiran

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Have you heard of NRO? Have you followed up the interviews given by the Dictator Musharraf and the present President Zardari? and the press briefings by Mr. Holbrook and Mrs. Clinton?
No, not at all. Appreciate if you can place some links here, when you have the time, so that we get to know better.
 

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