Palestinians should perish from this world: Ovadia Yosef

[dr0ne]

^^
Precisely my point. Let us stop worrying about what is good for Palestinians/Israel/US/Arabs. Our only concern should be what is good for India and how we can exploit these schisms to India's advantage.

 

[pankaj nema]

Like I said before first sort out your own house in order, then worry about rest of the world. This kind of moral grandstanding serves no purpose.

Since you are new to forum I must tell you we discuss ALL types of national and international issues.
What are forums for if we have to only discuss national problems.

You must read all my posts in this thread. I have always maintained, though Palestinians are in a bad shape this conflict is the result of Arab and Islamic intransigience towards Israel

 

[dr0ne]

Certainly we should discuss global issues. It will be foolish to claim that one should only worry about domestic concerns. But IMHO discussion should be oriented towards how these issues and conflicts can be exploited to benefit India. My critique was only meant for those bleeding hearts who support Palestine and criticize Israel for its "oppressive" policies. There is no point in criticizing Human Rights violations by IDF when our own citizens live worse than animals.

Of course if the realpolitic is guised in moral rhetoric, I have no issues.

 

[dr0ne]

This doesn't mean that we should give blank checque to Israel. No point in behaving like Pakis who hero worship China. We should also criticize them once in a while as it will keep them on their toes and give us leverage to extract better deals.
The objective of criticism is : acquiring better equipment for jawans not improving lives of Palestinians.

 

[civfanatic]

That's a rather foolish view. It is in India's national interest that Israel survives. It is also in India's national interest that Palestinian issue continues to fester so that most of the "Muslim World" continues to maintain its hostility viz-a-viz Israel. This will ensure that :

1. We can get best defense deals from Israel, as we will be only one of the few "friends" that Israel can rely on in International forums. If there is Arab-Israeli reconciliation than there will be a lot of other potential competitors for this technology. Hence terms will be a lot less favorable to us.

OK let us assume that tomorrow Israel is suddenly wiped off the map. What happens? India loses its main supply of UAVs. Boo-hoo. Maybe then DRDO will put more effort in developing Rustom, eh?

2. It diverts the attention away from Kashmir and allows us to solve it at our own terms, away from the glare of International/Arab media. I know that currently we get bad press because of Kashmir issue but believe me this will pale in comparison to what we will get after the reconciliation.

Why does it matter how much media attention Kashmir gets? We are not committing any war crimes there. We are not bombing kindergartens or slaughtering civilians like Israel does. Let the Arabs and the West put as much media attention on Kashmir as they want. It's not like they can do anything.

 

[dr0ne]

OK let us assume that tomorrow Israel is suddenly wiped off the map.

OK let us assume that tomorrow India gets wiped off the map. Pakis have 100 nukes, no ? Boo hoo .. No point in harping on all these issues then, eh ? Foreign Policy and strategic thinking is not governed by such silly and unlikely scenarios.

Maybe then DRDO will put more effort in developing Rustom, eh?

I admire your patriotism. But there is no point in reinventing the wheel. If we can learn the tech from Israelis in one year, without giving them much concessions aside from occasionally supporting them in international forums and giving them intel on terrorists, then what's the point of developing it indigenously and wasting another 20 yrs.

Why does it matter how much media attention Kashmir gets? We are not committing any war crimes there. We are not bombing kindergartens or slaughtering civilians like Israel does.

You clearly don't understand the value of international media and propaganda. What we do on ground doesn't matter. Perceptions, which are shaped by Int'l media do .

 

[The Messiah]

Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.

"They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."

The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.

Following the verdict, Capt R burst into tears, turned to the public benches and said: "I told you I was innocent."

The army's official account said that Iman was shot for crossing into a security zone carrying her schoolbag which soldiers feared might contain a bomb. It is still not known why the girl ventured into the area but witnesses described her as at least 100 yards from the military post which was in any case well protected.

A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

The prosecution case was damaged when a soldier who initially said he had seen Capt R point his weapon at the girl's body and open fire later told the court he had fabricated the story.

Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."

The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.

Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.

The transcript

The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl

From the watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts

Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."

Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman

"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

Can anyone blame the parents for not taking justice into there hands ?

Media likes to portray that only one side is vile but in reality both are equally bad....only difference is that one has better PR campaign.

How can anyone kill innocent children in cold blood ??? makes my blood boil

 

[dr0ne]

Is this Indian Defense Forum? How does this news have anything to do with Indian Defense or Strategic Issues ? Or have I come to the Global Human Rights Forum ?

If your blood is boiling too much, go visit the nearest slum. It will cool down .

Media likes to portray that only one side is vile but in reality both are equally bad.

What are you smoking dude, Western media is anything but Pro-Israel. BBC,CNN, Guardian, Telegraph, AL Jazeera are all pretty anti-Israeli in their attitude.

 

[ahmedsid]

Drone, This is an Indian Defense Forum all right, but this Thread is posted under World Affairs and Politics.

If we discuss just about India, we will all turn into Frogs in a pond. You maybe comfortable with that, but in todays world, The rest of us are not so Comfortable being Ignorant.

CNN and all are Anti Israel, hmmmm and I understand you have no Idea what you are talking about So, I leave you to be, But please dont show off the ignorance around here! A Humble request that is!

 

[SHASH2K2]

Can anyone blame the parents for not taking justice into there hands ?

Media likes to portray that only one side is vile but in reality both are equally bad....only difference is that one has better PR campaign.

How can anyone kill innocent children in cold blood ??? makes my blood boil

Incidents like this are definitely condemnable . I can understand if someone empty magazine on a terrorist but on a girl ? Person like that should definitely be stoned to death. You cannot justify killing an innocent girl be it Israel or Palestinians. Hams and Israel both should understand that .

 

[civfanatic]

OK let us assume that tomorrow India gets wiped off the map. Pakis have 100 nukes, no ? Boo hoo .. No point in harping on all these issues then, eh ? Foreign Policy and strategic thinking is not governed by such silly and unlikely scenarios.

Pakistan cannot wipe India off the map with just 100 nukes, only America and Russia are capable of such a thing. But that is beside the point. For the record, I do not want Israel wiped off the map, as I would prefer that India acquire as much technology as possible from Israel first. But if, hypothetically, Israel were to be wiped off the map, India's defense capacity would not be seriously affected.

I admire your patriotism. But there is no point in reinventing the wheel. If we can learn the tech from Israelis in one year, without giving them much concessions aside from occasionally supporting them in international forums and giving them intel on terrorists, then what's the point of developing it indigenously and wasting another 20 yrs.

Do I have to seriously explain to you why India needs to invest in indigenous military development? The LCA project has taken over 26 years, and it still isn't perfected. The end result of the project is an aircraft that is inferior to more proven systems like the Mirage 2000 and F-16. It might be cheaper - and certainly far less time-consuming - to simply purchase some planes to replace the MiG-21s instead of developing an indigenous replacement. So why are we still investing in indigenous development? Because no country in history has ever become a major world power by relying on other nations for their defense needs

Hammer that into your head.

You clearly don't understand the value of international media and propaganda. What we do on ground doesn't matter. Perceptions, which are shaped by Int'l media do .

You clearly don't understand the value of diplomatic soft power. Islamist news channels can broadcast whatever they want about Kashmir; they can say Hindus are committing a new holocaust and are raping innocent Kashmiri girls, etc etc. Actually they are already saying this, and many average Pakistanis are falling for the propaganda. But it doesn't matter, because the rest of the world won't fall for the same propaganda; India has an excellent reputation of respecting human rights, unlike Israel. Even if brainwashed individuals in certain countries believe anti-Indian propaganda, the greater international political community will not. Many people say India is too "soft" on issues, but this "softness" can sometimes be used a strength.

 

[neo29]

Can anyone blame the parents for not taking justice into there hands ?

Media likes to portray that only one side is vile but in reality both are equally bad....only difference is that one has better PR campaign.

How can anyone kill innocent children in cold blood ??? makes my blood boil

What about PLO,Hamas, Hizbollah and Black September who indulged in terrorist activities and sucide bombings all these years ???? Even they kill children and justifying it by calling children of the "kafirs" . But unfortunately most think that this is freedom struggle and self defence by Israel is inhuman.

Israel Palestine conflict has become a political issue in the middle east with Arabs who want to trouble Israel using Palestine. It has become a sentimental issue for decades and passed on from generation to generation. There is no solution to it.

 

[dr0ne]

Drone, This is an Indian Defense Forum all right, but this Thread is posted under World Affairs and Politics.

If we discuss just about India, we will all turn into Frogs in a pond. You maybe comfortable with that, but in todays world, The rest of us are not so Comfortable being Ignorant.

CNN and all are Anti Israel, hmmmm and I understand you have no Idea what you are talking about So, I leave you to be, But please dont show off the ignorance around here! A Humble request that is!

My post was addressed to Ernesto regarding his post about Palestinian schoolgirl. If you still maintain your stance then I would ask you to re-read my other posts in this thread. I am all for discussing World Issues, but they should be discussed from the Indian perspective rather than Palestinian/Arab/Amnesty International perspective.

Regarding the International Media, oh I agree its too tame if your definition for being Anti-Israel is "Death to Israel".

 

[pankaj nema]

Drone the Indian perspective is peace between palestine and Israel and independent state and DIGNITY for palestinians

But the question is HOW the cycle of hate will be broken.

The whole Islamic world is GUILTY because of the relentless HATRED that they preach against Israel
.
When there are protests in IRAN Syria pakistan Egypt Jordan and other Islamic countries calling for DEATH to ISRAEL Then this conflict only gets further inflamed

 

[Solid Beast]

I think you guys are also confusing populist anti Israeli sentiment with official government positions. The entire Islamic world, contrary to popular opinion, is not hell bent on destroying Israel. One doesn't need to look much further than Egypt to verify this. Also the Islamic world doesn't get together and plan things in cohesion. So very much would wish for the generalizations to end for fruitful discussion to take place.

 

[dr0ne]

Pakistan cannot wipe India off the map with just 100 nukes, only America and Russia are capable of such a thing. But that is beside the point. For the record, I do not want Israel wiped off the map, as I would prefer that India acquire as much technology as possible from Israel first. But if, hypothetically, Israel were to be wiped off the map, India's defense capacity would not be seriously affected.

Agreed but my point is one must have perspective and not indulge in hyperbole and unlikely scenarios.

Do I have to seriously explain to you why India needs to invest in indigenous military development? The LCA project has taken over 26 years, and it still isn't perfected. The end result of the project is an aircraft that is inferior to more proven systems like the Mirage 2000 and F-16. It might be cheaper - and certainly far less time-consuming - to simply purchase some planes to replace the MiG-21s instead of developing an indigenous replacement. So why are we still investing in indigenous development? Because no country in history has ever become a major world power by relying on other nations for their defense needs

Agreed but I will still prefer learning about Newton's Laws from a standard textbook rather than reinvent them. I have never proposed that we should just import defense platforms from other countries. More stress should be on joint collaboration a la BrahMos so that we can learn to manufacture them indigenously and develop a solid Military Industrial Complex without wasting time.
With China developing rapidly, time is of essence here.

You clearly don't understand the value of diplomatic soft power. Islamist news channels can broadcast whatever they want about Kashmir; they can say Hindus are committing a new holocaust and are raping innocent Kashmiri girls, etc etc. Actually they are already saying this, and many average Pakistanis are falling for the propaganda. But it doesn't matter, because the rest of the world won't fall for the same propaganda; India has an excellent reputation of respecting human rights, unlike Israel. Even if brainwashed individuals in certain countries believe anti-Indian propaganda, the greater international political community will not. Many people say India is too "soft" on issues, but this "softness" can sometimes be used a strength.

1. Hardcore Islamists don't need to read reports in Int'l Media to be anti India. The moment Israel is "wiped" out they will automatically train their guns on us. Oh I am confident in our jawan's capability to handle them, but why make their jobs even more difficult ? Thus Israel is doing us a huge favor by acting as a magnet to all the Islamist scum.

2. The Int'l Media is mainly meant for the consumption of the Western World. I am sorry to remove your misconception but India's image is not so rosy as you portray. HR organizations that portray Israel as the Great Satan are equally harsh on India. This has nothing to do with realty on ground. Like I said before perceptions do matter, which are shaped by Int'l media.

BTW Human Rights are about how we treat our citizens and is a domestic issue. Our being "soft" on Pakis for their terrorist ways is an international issue. The two have nothing to do with each other

 

[Solid Beast]

Hardcore Islamists don't need to read reports in Int'l Media to be anti India. The moment Israel is "wiped" out they will automatically train their guns on us. Oh I am confident in our jawan's capability to handle them, but why make their jobs even more difficult ? Thus Israel is doing us a huge favor by acting as a magnet to all the Islamist scum.

Can you please point out to us the last time Indian security forces were in a pitched battle with Palestinian political factions? "Islamist scum" as you so cleverly put it are not from all over the world amalgamating and gathering on Israel as you claim.

 

[dr0ne]

@ernesto @shash2k2

Can you guys please read this propaganda piece written by a piece of sh*t based in New Delhi.

Boy, 11, shot dead in Kashmir - Telegraph

What kind of punishment will you offer for the individuals involved in the incident ?

A Pakjabi will say that Jews are much better than Hindoos, as the former atleast have the shame to hold a sham trial. Hindoos won't even do that.

The sad fact is in any conflict zone all kind of unfortunate incidents happen. There is no point in posting emotive articles like this which may tug at our hearts strings but should not have any place in a dispassionate strategic analysis as it deflects attention from the larger picture. Especially if the country in question is a staunch ally. By all means post articles about China, which is our arch enemy, Pakjabistan which is their rentboy; US/UK,etc which give us lectures about Human Rights.

 

[Solid Beast]

One can also view this issue from another perspective...how high India's standing would be in the Arab world (360 million people) and with a Palestinian state if India was perceived to be instrumental in championing and furthering the idea of a two state solution. It would also solve Israel's security dillemmas. Getting progress on this issue will be much better than the status quo, or trying to score cheap points by alienating India from people who would like to see the end of suffering for Palestinians. Chew on that "bigger picture" for a moment.

 

[dr0ne]

Solid Beast, I am not buying your snake oil :

Can you please point out to us the last time Indian security forces were in a pitched battle with Palestinian political factions? "Islamist scum" as you so cleverly put it are not from all over the world amalgamating and gathering on Israel as you claim.

Islamists have attacked US directly because it was percieved as a tormentor of Muslims, Islamists from all over the world have literally gathered in Afghanistan to attack NATO, because for them atrocities by Momeen are halal, but not so in the case of Kuffars. Islamists have been involved in training terrorists in J&K because "Hindu rule" is unacceptable. Islamists fund many Pakjabistani terrorist.. err.. charity organizations thus directly arming India's enemies.

One can also view this issue from another perspective...how high India's standing would be in the Arab world (360 million people) and with a Palestinian state if India was perceived to be instrumental in championing and furthering the idea of a two state solution.

India has historically supported Palestinian cause. Nonetheless one routinely heard criticism from Arabs about India's position in Kashmir. In wars against Pakjabistan, most Arabs have supported Pakjabistan.There are exceptions like Iraq, but that was because it was headed by a secularist Saddam Hussain. India has third largest population of Muslims, but we were denied entry into OIC.

It would also solve Israel's security dillemmas. Getting progress on this issue will be much better than the status quo, or trying to score cheap points by alienating India from people who would like to see the end of suffering for Palestinians. Chew on that "bigger picture" for a moment.

I am not concerned about Israel's security dilemmas. It is precisely because of their dillema that we can dictate them our own terms. Also Palestinian suffering doesn't move me much, when millions of my own countrymen are dying of starvation. My only concern is how to further India's national interest. By all means, India should support the two state solution and give pithy statements about HR violations. Play both sides of the fence. That is essentially what diplomacy is about.