Pakistani troops to be trained by Australia.

[johnee]

the perception of being a soft power by the Indian government has led to this position, Indian government at minimum carried out surgical strikes.

Very good point LF, the present Indian Govt's obsession with soft power and their high regard for views of international community(US in particular) are hurting India a lot. It is forgetting a fundamental point, every Soft Power must be backed by Hard Power. Soft Power works only when people know that the alternative to it would be Hard(core) power.(

EDIT: I have just read last few pages of this thread, IMO we are deviating from the real issue. The issue is not whether this particular training is anti-Indian, but the larger perspective. To me it looks like there is a clear division of perception: US(as corollary NATO including Aussies) feel that Paks need some good training, lot of money and some hitech toys, then they would defeat the taliban. While, the Indians feel that it is not question of training or money or equipment but simply the will. When we question the intent or will of Paks then everyone will understand that giving them all these new weapons or training or money might actually escalate the prob further.

I will put a direct question to all the guys who think giving MORE training, money(aid), or anything else would make Paks fight the talibuddies? Do you actually believe it? If so on what basis have you come to that conclusion?

 

[dave lukins]

Yes you do..... but think twice, Will Pakistan ever stop terrorism? It is a country which promotes terrorism as the state policy, Do you think after this war on terror Pakistan will not train the same tactics with Lakshar-e-toiba and other toibas?

Don't think this this War on terror is taken on hand with full will of pakistan, You will not understand how these terrorist killed innocent civilians in Mumbai..... Kill as much as you can...... What does a book shop owner had done to these Pakistani's....... If soliders die, the government will give pension, What about a shopkeepers family who depend on just 1-2$ per day on the survival who died in the railway station firing?

We come to mumbai for earning our life, If we are out of job we have to starve to death...... What did we done to these Terrorist?

MMuthu I know that this is an emotive subject and I am not adverse to your feelings. I fully understand your feelings on the atrocities in Mumbai and I vented my feeling on another Forum, a lot of posters here can confirm to that.

I also fought Terrorism for almost 25 years. I was in Northern Ireland in the early 70's and 80's when bombing of Belfast and other places was an everyday occurrence. Bombings and shootings every single day for 30 years. And Yes I have lost good friends to Terrorism.

If your Government pays for soldiers Deaths, due to acts of Terrorism, then that should be extended to civilians. It is the DUTY of Government to look after its citizens, an absolute DUTY.

 

[Sailor]

Again i repeat an indian can only feel the pain and loss of indian soldier, not a sailor from OZ or a capstar from GB. Gandhigiri doesnt work especially with Pakistan! How sailor will react if pakistan sponsored terrorists trigger serial blasts in sydney,perth,melbourne,canberra ......Anyhow, since its my responsibility to reply i have posted my response.

Firstly I'd like to thank the senior chaps and the admins for allowing this thread to continue. You are Indians and this thread is a microcosm of the actual situation that you live with. If you live with terrorism, then you aren't going to sweep it under the carpet by banning or stifling discussion about it. Terrorism is the most extreme form of racial abuse possible and a few words on here are but dust in the larger scheme of things.

Venkat is exactly right about how Aussies would behave in a terrorist attack on our country. I can tell you now that we would go right off.
Now, there are about 300000 peoples from various countries of the Islamic faith living in Australia. At the time of 911 and ever since, these people have been living in fear of what will happen to them if one of their hot heads carries out a terrorist attack on Australian soil. Oh yes there are hot heads here and radical clergy who preach that our girls are just meat on show to rape and to carry out Allah's punishments on them. These families are very frightened at what will happen if such a thing occurs, particularly after they saw the reaction against the Lebanese youth gangs in Sydney.
Fortunately it hasn't happened and they are gradually settling into the Australian way of life. However even here it will take a generation to bring their women out of slavery.

Venkat, I don't know who you are are and I have been trying to work it out, as you deviate a lot. At first I thought that you were from Pakistan, but the flags tell me otherwise. What your religion is, is still a mystery to me but I am sure the young Indians on here know and an Australian has no idea.
However I think that you are displaying the guts to say what you feel and further to be struggling to say it in English is admirable. That must be very difficult and your passionate ideals on the problem for your country come across to others as ill manners. I think that this is not your actual intention.

This brings me to our attitude here in Australia. We hardly know what to think up there in the sub continent. In fact it isn't really any business for our soldiers to be up there at all and one has to Analise the reason that this is so.
We are there because the US and NATO are there. Why are they there? What if we all went home Venkat? Is that what you want? Because there are a lot of people in the West that think that all this money can be spent at home and not blown away in a lost cause up there.
What would happen if we did go home and leave it as just the business of the local peoples? ie India, Pakistan,etc.
We all know what would happen. Either nothing or nuclear war.
So there we are Yenkat. Australian, US and European soldiers all go up there to fight terrorists and try and stabilize the region as we are immune from nuclear attack because of our own power.
Finally that leaves the West with two options in Pakistan.
1] Try and train them to fix their own country. Which we are doing.
2] Invade Pakistan and install a new government like we did in Iraq.

We all know that is so far fetched it won't happen. Our governments are all war weary about any more Iraqs.

 

[MMuthu]

If your Government pays for soldiers Deaths, due to acts of Terrorism, then that should be extended to civilians. It is the DUTY of Government to look after its citizens, an absolute DUTY.

Very good point, But will not atleast happen for the next 10 years. That is a fact that we need to live with.

Leave all those things....... Do you really believe that pakistan will ever finish the Taliban like the determination that SL finished LTTE?

Do you think after winning successfully on this War on terror Pakistan will not support terrorism in any form?

If you answer YES...... I am sorry, Please forgive me for my ignorance.

 

[MMuthu]

1]Try and train them to fix their own country. Which we are doing.
2] Invade Pakistan and install a new government like we did in Iraq.

Interesting...... I am tired of asking the same question again and again...... It is my humble belief that what the west does is waste of hard earned money of the tax payers..... Pakistan will not and cannot put an end to terrorism.

The west attacked Iraq for Oil.... just for Oil.... nothing more..... Nothing less. If Pakistan has some Oil resource.... Pakistan will now be like Iraq.

I know Aussie's will not stop training the Pakistani's if some dozen Indians protest in this forum, Kindly go ahead..... The day in which you realize your mistake is not far enough.

All the best.

 

[Sailor]

Mmuthu, I have said all I have to say in my post to Ventak this morning answering all questions put to me, but I will ask you the question I put to him. What do you want us to do? a]Go home and let your regional countries sort it out?
b] or stay and try and help change things in Pakistan?

 

[MMuthu]

1. It wont make any great difference if you go home or if you stay.
2. Regional country like Pakistan cannot and will not do anything because they believe that terrorist as another wing of its armed forces.
3. With your stay you cannot change things in Pakistan.

My thoughts...........

 

[jackprince]

No offence Sailor, what changes have the west been able to bring forward? What chnge do u think it will bring? Pakistan was and is getting toward a state of instability steadily. No no. of foreign help could control that.

India have been telling, giving proofs of Pakistan's being a rogue state promoting violence for decades. Were US and its allys deaf or blind or morons or self-indulgent?! I tell u, they are bunch of self-indulgent manipulators who can't see anything beyond their own interest. Today US thinks that if Pak deteriorates further it would be a danger to him as it has quite good influence on Paks living in US, also it would be bad for US's image if it fails to save Pak being Pak's masters for so long. That is why US and its lackeys are trying to salvage the situation, there is nothing charitable about it.

 

[Sailor]

No offence Sailor, what changes have the west been able to bring forward? What chnge do u think it will bring? Pakistan was and is getting toward a state of instability steadily. No no. of foreign help could control that.

India have been telling, giving proofs of Pakistan's being a rogue state promoting violence for decades. Were US and its allys deaf or blind or morons or self-indulgent?! I tell u, they are bunch of self-indulgent manipulators who can't see anything beyond their own interest. Today US thinks that if Pak deteriorates further it would be a danger to him as it has quite good influence on Paks living in US, also it would be bad for US's image if it fails to save Pak being Pak's masters for so long. That is why US and its lackeys are trying to salvage the situation, there is nothing charitable about it.

OK Jack. When is India going to go in and take over? How much longer can you criticize the West whilst you in India do nothing?
You share a common border and your attack will be cheap, unlike all the Western military who have to get there by aircraft and ship.

 

[dave lukins]

Very good point, But will not atleast happen for the next 10 years. That is a fact that we need to live with.

Leave all those things....... Do you really believe that pakistan will ever finish the Taliban like the determination that SL finished LTTE?

Do you think after winning successfully on this War on terror Pakistan will not support terrorism in any form?

If you answer YES...... I am sorry, Please forgive me for my ignorance.

Q1..No, I don't think they have the determination or the willingness to do so. Periodically they show their teeth and display some feeble effort to appease onlookers. We will see in the oncoming months just how determined they are and I think monetary support may be reduced if the results are deemed to be inadequate.


Q2..If ever they were to eliminate the Taliban then that would show determination. If Pakistan did remove the Taliban and other organisations surely that would prove intent in ending terrorism and to that end the support of terrorism.

We all live in hope.....At the moment there does not seem to be any advancement in their eagerness to speed up its fight in ending terrorism. I am under no illusion that it will be an easy job for them to do. They now have a couple of million people fleeing their homes and no doubt they will be intermingled with Taliban.

At the end of the day it was there inability to control the Taliban, before they took control, that has come back to bite them. They have a long and hard road to travel if they are to retake control but I'm afraid it will take many many years, if ever.

 

[Sailor]

They now have a couple of million people fleeing their homes and no doubt they will be intermingled with Taliban.

This is the main point Dave. The Taliban aren't in uniform and are dressed in the same 7th century style of all the civilians running around. How can they be identified?
This in fact was exactly what happened in VietNam. Farmers by day and fighters by night.

 

[nitesh]

still these guys need to be trained? They all are one when this thing will become clear:

Strengthen Team India | The Australian

But we dodged a security bullet as well. Indian and US intelligence agencies have concluded that the part of the Pakistani state that lent some support to the terrorists who attacked Mumbai last November, did so for a very specific reason, internal to Pakistan. The Pakistani military was so desperate to escape US pressure to fight the Taliban in their northwest that they wanted to provoke a limited Indian military reaction. This would have justified abandoning the fight against the Taliban and rushing troops back to the Indian border.

The relevant intelligence agencies, including our own, further conclude that a further Pakistan-originated terrorist outrage after Mumbai would have virtually forced an Indian military response of some kind, even just a strike at terrorist training facilities in Pakistan. Only the measured, moderate, mature leadership of Singh and his senior colleagues kept India calm in the face of the Mumbai outrage

Moreover, the whole world is beating a path to India's door right now. The only real play Canberra has at a genuinely strategic relationship with New Delhi is to become a critical energy supplier, and that means uranium. Further, with the long-running insurgency in Sri Lanka solved at last, India will lead an accelerating process of South Asian regional economic integration (Pakistan excepted).

 

[ganesh177]

Guyz lets believe in what NATO says. The skills transferred to PA wont be used against indians and is strictly for use against talibs. All the biilion dollar aids thrown and the nuclear weapons raised from that money is not for use against indians. So if tommorrow kargil like situaion arises, we just have sit and hope that PA have those ethics, they gonna say, hey, lets not use this skill taught by aussies against indians, they taught us only to fight talibs. And hey, lets not use this weapons we raised from billlion dollar aid of US, against indians, coz US gave this for the help for our civilians.

Summary, US keeps in strenghtning PA, without having any check on it, and at the same time wants india to not get mad on it, and be calm, assuring it is to used only to eradicate talibs.

My point is if tommorrow kargil like situation arises (no one can deny the possibility, and when it is anything against india, militants and military act like brother), none of the US/NATO officials is gonna intervene to take away all the services and weaponary provided to pakistan, even if its clear that it is being misused, and the motive of the aid was never fulfilled. We would be left all alone to deal with this mess boosted by NATO.

 

[Tankie]

MMuthu I know that this is an emotive subject and I am not adverse to your feelings. I fully understand your feelings on the atrocities in Mumbai and I vented my feeling on another Forum, a lot of posters here can confirm to that.

I also fought Terrorism for almost 25 years. I was in Northern Ireland in the early 70's and 80's when bombing of Belfast and other places was an everyday occurrence. Bombings and shootings every single day for 30 years. And Yes I have lost good friends to Terrorism.

If your Government pays for soldiers Deaths, due to acts of Terrorism, then that should be extended to civilians. It is the DUTY of Government to look after its citizens, an absolute DUTY.

Ditto Dave as did we all (

 

[dave lukins]

My point is if tommorrow kargil like situation arises (no one can deny the possibility, and when it is anything against india, militants and military act like brother), none of the US/NATO officials is gonna intervene to take away all the services and weaponary provided to pakistan, even if its clear that it is being misused, and the motive of the aid was never fulfilled. We would be left all alone to deal with this mess boosted by NATO.

But they will intervene, just like they did in 99. Pakistan knew that it was beaten and had their 'finger on the button'. It was Bill Clinton who warned Nawaz Sharif of the dire consequences of such a move.

We are not privy to the minutes of meetings between US and Pakistan but I can bet there was other stern warnings of any repetition. As for the 'motive' ? once again us mortals can only put our own thoughts to that.

 

[MMuthu]

All we want to say is ... There is not big difference for Australia to give training to Pakistan Army than giving the training to Pakistan based terrorist. As simple as that.

 

[K Factor]

The difference is in the motive. Australians are trying to help Pakistan to fight Taliban. Terror in India is secondary to them. But the issue here is the ABCA/NATO is concerned about the their own security. Tney want to fight Taliban/AQ which are a threat to them. If this training is passed onto Kashmiri terrorists, dont blame them.

We know there are terror camps 50 km from the LOC in PoK, what are we doing about it? Why blame the aussies for our own leaders lack of balls?

Hell, after 26/11 when the iron was hot and world opinion was with us ((US, British, Israeli n Japanese citizen died), why didnt we strike then? aussies were not training PA then, were they?

 

[MMuthu]

But they will intervene, just like they did in 99. Pakistan knew that it was beaten and had their 'finger on the button'. It was Bill Clinton who warned Nawaz Sharif of the dire consequences of such a move.

We are not privy to the minutes of meetings between US and Pakistan but I can bet there was other stern warnings of any repetition. As for the 'motive' ? once again us mortals can only put our own thoughts to that.

May be the US President can avoid a nuclear conflict, Can they stop 10 terrorist from Karachi to Mumbai?

What if those 10 Terrorist get some tactics from Pakistan Soliders who are trained by Australia? The Probability is my imagination is more.

 

[K Factor]

May be the US President can avoid a nuclear conflict, Can they stop 10 terrorist from Karachi to Mumbai?

What if those 10 Terrorist get some tactics from Pakistan Soliders who are trained by Australia? The Probability is my imagination is more.

Then what is preventing India from performing surgical strikes?

 

[MMuthu]

It is only Bill Clinton told of Dire consequnces to Nawab..... Not Obama........
It is not good for the economy, If all out nuclear war breaks out.... It is not good for India for now....

If there is another war.... Let us make Pakistan a History.... There should not be one Person in Pakistsan Defence Forum talking that Pakistan won all the 4 wars against India. Just my thoughts