Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Neo, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Neo

    Neo Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,099
    Likes Received:
    801
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Pakistan Seeks To Energize Naval Modernization
    By Usman Ansari
    June 17, 2015

    [​IMG]

    (Photo: Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works)

    ISLAMABAD — Pakistan hopes to revive its naval modernization program through a warship construction deal with China that will also expand Pakistan's shipbuilding industry.

    Chinese media reports have outlined a construction program involving six of eight S-20 variants of the Type-039A/Type-041 submarine under negotiation; four "Improved F-22P" frigates equipped with enhanced sensors and weaponry (possibly including the HQ-17 surface-to-air missile developed from the Russian Tor 1/SA-N-9); and six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats, to be built by Pakistan's state-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW).

    The reports indicate Type-022 construction may be delayed by the ongoing Azmat fast attack craft building program, but also highlight a significant expansion of KSEW's facilities.

    These include a foundry, fabrication facilities to cover all aspects of ship construction, berthing facilities, and two graving docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres.

    A 7,881-ton ship lift transfer system will be completed next year.

    KSEW will expand to occupy facilities vacated by the Navy as it transfers from Karachi to Ormara. The Pakistan Navy Dockyard, which is adjacent to KSEW, already has facilities upgraded by the French during construction of Agosta-90B submarines.

    Pakistani officials would not comment on these reports. Repeated attempts to secure comment from the Ministry of Defence Production, KSEW, the Navy and federal politicians connected with defense decision-making bodies were turned away.

    The program will follow a Sino-Pakistani agreement for six patrol vessels for Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency agreed to on June 10, with two built by KSEW.

    Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the groundwork laid by the Agosta-90B program that included upgrades to PN Dockyard facilities and the training of some 1,000 civilian technicians greatly facilitated present plans.

    However, Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow, defense, industries and society, at the Royal United Services Institute highlighted the problems KSEW's construction and expansion plans could encounter.

    "Experience from around the world shows that it is very easy to be optimistic about the difficulty of naval shipbuilding and the time taken to complete construction and systems integration," he said. "Plans for rapid expansion of warship production are unlikely to proceed on schedule. The coordinated and sustained application of extensive managerial and technical skills is required, and submarines especially have vital safety dimensions."

    He highlights the importance of a sustainable program.

    "The lesson from the UK and elsewhere is that, once a warship design and build capability is in place, it is best maintained and developed through a planned and steady drumbeat of programs, rather than a rapid expansion of activity for a limited period of years followed by a sudden drop-off in orders. Clearly this requires a consistent stance of support for the industry from political authorities."

    Cloughley is optimistic, however, that the extensive Chinese help provided to Pakistan in warship construction, in addition to agreements made during Chinese President Xi Jinping's recent visit, "indicate that all types of cooperation will continue and expand."

    He said this is related to the burgeoning Indo-US relationship, India's increasingly antagonistic anti-Pakistani rhetoric, and clearer Sino-Indian divisions that mean the Sino-Pakistan "axis of understanding has become more tangible."

    Consequently, "KSEW can expect considerable input from such as [China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co]. Money, certainly; but also, and perhaps of more importance, provision of expertise."

    He said China's help will also further increase the number of skilled technicians as "there are many would-be technicians with great potential who cannot obtain training," which China is aware of "and has planned accordingly," with KSEW also running a training program.

    Cloughley said the Chinese investment and involvement will ensure the program's sustainability.

    "Given China's amazingly large financial commitment to cooperation with Pakistan, there is no doubt that Beijing will be calling the tune. And KSEW and many other establishments will be pleased to dance to it."

    Though the naval expansion plan is impressive and will ensure future refit and modernization work, analyst Haris Kahn of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said with the decommissioning of Type-21 frigates it still only meets Pakistan's "minimum naval deterrence."

    "The Navy needs close to 20 large surface vessels [frigates and heavy frigates]" of which at least three should be ships able to provide area air defense, as the "F-22P will not cut it and the need of longer-range SAM coverage is essential."

    "Unfortunately, with the serious shortage of funds we have not even heard about anywhere else the Navy is looking to get these much-needed vessels," he added.

    To meet its requirements for larger warships, Pakistan had hoped to acquire approximately six Perry-class frigates from the US, but Nilanthi Samaranayake, Indian Ocean analyst at the US-based CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said this route is now blocked "due to congressional obstacles."

    However, Samaranayake still sees a need for such frigates to "support its counterpiracy and maritime security operations under combined maritime forces."

    Cloughley cites Indian influence in Washington for their unavailability, but though Pakistan still desires more Perry-class frigates "on easy or gift terms ... the lure of Chinese ships combined with the massive [Chinese] investment program and Pakistan's increasing disenchantment with Washington would seem to militate against any movement [toward the US]," and Pakistan will certainly look to China in time.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ilding-china-frigates-dockyard-ksew/71074464/
     
    Black knight likes this.
  2.  
  3. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    326
    Location:
    USA
    I don't really see how the title fits the article. These deals have all been around for a very long time and are pretty well known. The handful of submarines and ships planned are an improvement no doubt, especially because of how badly neglected the Pakistani navy is compared to the other two branches, but it's not really all that significant in size, especially since they are mostly replacing other ships being decommissioned.

    Or has Pakistan never made ships at home before? I'm not very familiar with the history of Pakistani naval ship building,
     
  4. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,688
    Likes Received:
    2,173
    Location:
    in a fast food joint next to the imperial shipyard
    Forget about China and their help to Pakistan , what we really need to focus on is building up our own naval capacity. This means adding dockyards and shipyards. The moment we get our private shipyards up and running while augmenting and upgrading our public shipbuilding capacity there will be no one save the Chinese in Asia who would be able to match the pace of our naval buildup.
     
  5. Neo

    Neo Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,099
    Likes Received:
    801
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Revealed: Why China Is Selling Submarines to Pakistan

    Does the sale represent a step in China’s possible ambitions to have a toehold in the Indian Ocean?

    As previously covered by The Diplomat, Pakistan announced earlier this year that it has agreed to purchase eight modified Type 41 Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines from China. These boats will provide Islamabad with much-needed Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) capabilities against the Indian Navy in case of war. This would be especially useful in case of an Indian blockade of Pakistan’s coast and could give New Delhi grounds to pause before deploying its planned new aircraft carrier, the INS Vikrant.

    A Yuan-class submarine is undoubtedly a great piece of kit. It is China’s first class of submarines to incorporate an indigenously designed- and constructed Air-Independent Propulsion system (AIP), giving it a cruise speed of 18 knots and an operational range of 8,000 nautical miles. Although the export version of the Yuan, named the S-20, does not automatically come fitted with the AIP, Pakistan has apparently been able to secure it for its subs. Furthermore, the Yuan is integrated “with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction and an asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller.”

    Combined with the AIP, this makes the Yuan-class the quietest non-nuclear sub in the PLAN. Furthermore, the Yuan has an impressive set of teeth. Aside from six tubes firing standard 553mm torpedoes, it is equipped with the YJ-8/8A Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (ASCM). While this weapon only has a maximum range of between 30-42 km, there are plans to equip the Yuans with the YJ-18 ASCM. These missiles have a reported range of 220 km and, represent a real A2/AD “force multiplier” for the Yuan. Whether Pakistan will attempt to acquire these missiles, or opt to go for another option (such as their indigenously produced Hatf VII Babur) is unknown.

    The sale raises one crucial question: why is China selling Pakistan these subs? There is undoubtedly a commercial aspect to this transaction (it is unknown how much Pakistan will pay for these boats, although it is certainly in the multi-billion dollar range). However, one potential reason which is worrying analysts in New Delhi is that this represents a step in China’s possible ambitions to have a toehold in the Indian Ocean. Without opening the can of worms that is the “String of Pearls” debate, it’s worth looking at this possibility.

    Here are the facts: Firstly, the Indian Ocean is important for China for a range of reasons. The amount of Chinese sea-borne trade which passes through the Indian Ocean sea-lane is staggering. These sea-lines of communication (SLOCs) represent a lifeline for the Chinese economy, not least in terms of imports of natural resources, especially hybrocarbons, and exports, in terms of manufactured goods. Any naval strategist worth his salt has read Alfred Thayer Mahan, and will immediately recognize the importance of securing a trading state’s SLOCs. China is no exception.

    Secondly, China has recently deployed submarines to the Indian Ocean. (This, incidentally, included the visit of a Yuan-class boat to Karachi.) According to Beijing, these are primarily there to participate in the ongoing anti-piracy campaign in the Gulf of Aden. While this is at least partially true, it is also likely that they are conducting exercises, surveys, and perhaps even combat patrols which can be useful for future operations in the Indian Ocean. Thirdly, Beijing does care about its image and is “realistic” about its power-projection capabilities. According to a recent US Naval War College report, it’s unlikely that China will construct overseas bases in the same way that the United States or France have in the near future in fear of alarming other stakeholders and overstretching naval resources needed closer to home. Finally, China is a long way from the Indian Ocean, and Pakistan is its closest partner in the neighborhood.

    Even if its subs can stay at sea for months without refueling at a time, its crews can’t. Having a well-fitted anchorage close to a submarine’s intended area of operations makes it much easier to rotate crews, take on fresh supplies, and carry out maintenance. The PLAN has already called on ports in Oman, Djibouti, and Aden during its anti-piracy campaigns in the Gulf of Aden. However, this has so far only included surface vessels. Submarines often require more specialized facilities to function effectively. Locating a resupply place (not base) in the friendliest state in the area makes sense.

    A Pakistani naval facility which already
     
    Black knight likes this.
  6. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    326
    Location:
    USA
    Seems like over analysis of some very common sense things.

    Why WOULDN'T China sell Pakistan these or most other weapons if it can afford? A stronger Pakistan is better for China, military sales are always good and there are absolutely no draw backs. This sort of analysis would only be needed if China was gifting the submarines to Pakistan.

    8 Submarines are still vastly out matched by the Indian navy, oh which many ships have anti-submarine capability, India is building its own submarines which will be stronger, faster, more advanced and better armed that the Pakistani ones, and of course the P-8 Poseidon's specifically designed to hunt submarines while being completely invulnerable from submarines in return.

    In any sort of conflict these submarines would be sunk far sooner than the India navy would run out of resources. Even if Pakistan can inflict 1 for 1 losses, being heavily out gunned, equipped, outmatched, a 1-1 loss is still a win for India. Think of Chess where when the opponent is behind several pieces, it is suddenly ok to trade pieces 1 for 1, because you will wear the opponent out much sooner.
     
    Kshatriya87 likes this.
  7. I_PLAY_BAD

    I_PLAY_BAD Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2015
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    482
    Location:
    Chennai
    Pakistani modernization.
    All great warriors of Pakistan will get down inside the ocean and push the ships from behind to great speeds.
     
    sabari likes this.
  8. salute

    salute Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    786
    Location:
    india
    paki subs not gonna be alone,chinese navy,subs may come to their rescue.
     
  9. thethinker

    thethinker Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,195
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    India
    They need to upgrade their naval officers as well! :hehe:

    Al Qaeda Militants Tried to Seize Pakistan Navy Frigate
    Al Qaeda Raid Foiled After Firefight Involving Rogue Naval Officers

    Updated Sept. 16, 2014 5:15 p.m. ET
    10 COMMENTS

    KARACHI, Pakistan—Al Qaeda militants tried to hijack a Pakistan Navy frigate earlier this month and use it to target U.S. Navy vessels on antiterrorism patrol in the northwestern Indian Ocean, Pakistani security officials said.

    The Sept. 6 raid, which was foiled after a fire fight and a suicide bombing, was carried out in part by Pakistan Navy personnel who had been recruited by al Qaeda, these officials said. The raid, in which 10 militants and one petty officer died, raised fears about terrorist infiltration of the nuclear-armed nation's military forces.

    "Without assistance from inside, these people could not have breached security," Defense Minister Khawaja Asif said about the incident at a recent parliament session.
     
    jackprince likes this.
  10. Adioz

    Adioz Irregular member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2015
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    224
    Location:
    Oppai, Tengoku
    I believe the answer to that is an Indian Naval deployment blocking the mouth of Malacca or even the strait itself.
    Of course I do not mean declare it a no ship zone, but it could be declared as a no submarine zone. Any Chinese sub passing through the 2.8 km wide and 25m deep choke-point will easily be spotted. We can also deploy buoys. Since that is the only direction the PLAN submarines can come from, they might try to do so by using a surface fleet to muscle their way past, which will be a costly and time consuming affair.
     
  11. sabari

    sabari Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    81
    Chinese will sale submarine for loan and use this loan to colanise Pakistani.eg China Iran road way, gwader port and also .push India to spend more on defense then welfare sceam,
     
  12. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    326
    Location:
    USA
    Didn't happen in 1971, certainly not going to happen now. No country wants to go to war for another. People always shoot out these ridiculous "India attacked by Pakistan/China plus some random countries that would never attack India."

    If you want to add multiple nations, then world war 3 has started, so you might as well add American, Japanese, Australian, Canadian, British, South Korean, French, Vietnamese, Taiwanese subs all to the India side of the equation.
     
    Neeraj Mathur likes this.
  13. salute

    salute Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    786
    Location:
    india
    then how else paki gonna win ???
    chinese dont want defeated paki,
    they may provide some kind of help to them.
     
  14. Neo

    Neo Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,099
    Likes Received:
    801
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    China to build four submarines in Karachi

    ISLAMABAD: China will build in Karachi four of eight submarines that it is selling to Pakistan.

    Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told at the inauguration of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Display Centre in the federal capital that the deal for the acquisition of submarines from China had been finalised and four of them would be built here.

    He further said that construction of the submarines would simultaneously begin in Pakistan and China.

    China, he said, would transfer the technology to Pakistan for submarine construction.

    The implementation of the agreement would augment the existing submarine related capacity. One of the three Agosta 90-B submarines in Navy’s fleet — PNS Hamza commissioned in 2008 — was assembled at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. The other two Agosta 90-B submarines — PNS Khalid and PNS Saad — were also indigenously overhauled and retrofitted with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems in 2011.

    Also read: Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told

    The three Agosta 90-B submarines of French design form the core of Pakistan’s current submarine fleet that also includes two ageing Agosta-70 submarines.

    Mr Hussain did not specify when the construction would begin, but said it would be happening soon. A training centre would be set up in Karachi for this purpose.

    The minister did not either say which type of submarines were being purchased from China. It is, however, speculated that the deal was for Yuan-class Type-041 diesel-electric submarines equipped with AIP systems.

    Navy has been pursuing different options for expanding its submarine fleet. Naval officials say that more submarines were needed to address force imbalance with India, which too is increasing and modernising its fleet of submarines.

    Pakistan had earlier explored the options of buying submarines from France and Germany, but those deals did not materialise.

    PRIVATE-PUBLIC PARTNERSHIP: Mr Hussain said the government would encourage private-public partnership in defence production to improve the efficiency of the sector.

    “We can compete with the best in the world only through a national effort,” he said, adding that the government would extend all possible cooperation to private sector in this regard.

    He said that this was “the beginning of a new approach”.

    The minister said the country needed indigenously developed hardware, which was also technologically innovative.

    NEW NAVAL SHIPYARD: The minister expected progress on the proposal for a new deep-sea shipyard planned in Gawadar.

    “The summary for the new shipyard is with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his approval is expected,” he said.

    The shipyard is planned to be constructed by foreign investors on build-operate-transfer basis.

    “We have already earmarked land for this purpose,” the minister said.

    Mr Hussain hoped that the new shipyard would be able to get substantial maritime related business from Gulf and Arab countries.

    Published in Dawn, October 7th, 2015
     
  15. BATTLE FIELD

    BATTLE FIELD Battle Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    160
    Location:
    DFI
    hqdefault (2).jpg



    classified :
    pakis navy stealth guided missile destroyer
    6 of them are ordered.
     
  16. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2012
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    843
    Location:
    Ontario
    I like the idea of Pakistan building its navy also in the process bankrupt an already impovrished country.
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,519
    Likes Received:
    6,520
    Alliance is forming to make sure China is kept out of the Indian ocean. Pakistan is on the wrong side
     
  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,519
    Likes Received:
    6,520
    Most of these pipe dreams with Chinese handouts will not materialise. Chinese economy heading for the gutter stock market down over 60 percent and ghost cities are not fooling anyone into believing false numbers.
     
  19. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    1,427
    "Naval modernization" Huh!!!

    Big words from a tiny country. Pakistan is probably the only country in this world who gets happier with constantly failing to achieve their goals.

    Ajeeb log hain, BC khareedne kuch aur nikalte hain bheekh main kuch aur le aate hain hain aur khush alag hote hain.:pound:

    Pakistan to Buy German Submarines

    http://www.dw.com/en/pakistan-to-buy-german-submarines/a-3823056

    Nikle the "state of the art" Type 214 lene, le aaye Chini tamasha.

    Nikle the brand new frigates lene, le aaye corvette sized Chinese junk inferior to the 40 years old frigates about to retire from the navy.

    Nikle the 1000+ MBT 3000 lene, le aaye Type 99 bheekh main.

    @Neo , yeh kya laga rakha hain bhai?:bounce:
     
  20. Neo

    Neo Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,099
    Likes Received:
    801
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Bhai humari fikar choro aur apni navy ko dekho, kabhi submarine doob jati hai to kabhi port me phans jati hai aur agar ghalti se samundar me chali bhi gayi to kisi ko takkar maar deti hai. :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  21. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,216
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    Location:
    Yatra Tatra
    Thanks it still not Paki Navy, where Terrorists actually call the.... errr ...fire the shots(at Paki Navy Ofcourse... chanting Naiyoon aj main kashti chalavanga!), Blow the Submarine Engineers, and when it comes to actual fight they prefer to be sunk at harbour or get blown by their own depth charges.
     

Share This Page