Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Zarvan, Mar 16, 2016.

  1. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    [​IMG]

    Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif inspecting one of the competitors seeking to secure Pakistan's standard rifle requirement. Photo credit: ISPR
    Daily News
    Mar 16, 2016Quwa Team -

    New details emerge about a possible competition between FN, CZ and others

    16 March 2016

    A recent visit to Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) by Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif has shed light on a requirement for what seems to be a new standard infantry rifle for the Pakistan Army.

    Numerous photos released by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) show General Sharif as well as other senior Army officers inspecting assault and battle rifles from a number of overseas vendors.

    The rifles present during General Raheel’s visit included the FN Herstal SCAR [Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle], Česká Zbrojovka CZ-806 BREN 2, Zastava M21, Beretta ARX-200, and Kalashnikov AK-103. Representatives from each of the aforementioned companies were also present.

    [​IMG]
    Various assault and battle rifles being presented to COAS General Raheel Sharif at POF. Photo credit: ISPR

    Currently, Pakistan’s mainstay rifles include the Heckler and Koch (HK) G3 battle rifle (7.62x51mm) and NORINCO Type 56 assault rifle (7.62x39mm), a licensed Chinese-built variant of the Kalashnikov AK-47. The HK MP5 submachine gun is also used by various entities in Pakistan’s security apparatus, particularly among its law enforcement agencies (LEA). Several other assault rifles, such as the FN F2000, are also in use with Pakistani LEAs and special operations forces but these are not standard-issue weapons.

    Pakistan’s pursuit for a new standard issue infantry rifle is not a new story. At one point, especially in the mid-to-late 2000s, the Pakistan Army was interested in procuring 5.56mm assault rifles to replace ageing 7.62mm stocks. In fact, POF had even offered its own design (evidently based on the HK33) under the label of PK-08. This program collapsed. Though the reasons were not made public, it is possible that several issues made such a switch untenable.

    First, the Army’s counterinsurgency (COIN) effort in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) saw it heavily depend on weapons using 7.62mm rounds, such as the Type 56 assault rifle. Like other countries engaged in COIN (including the U.S.), it is possible that the Army came to the conclusion that small arms using 5.56mm rounds did not offer enough stopping power on the field, even though they are lighter in weight and capable of carrying a higher number of rounds per magazine.

    A second reason could be in relation to the fact that any mass-replacement of small arms ought to be done in a manner that results in maximum future utility. In other words, if the Army were to spend a large amount of money to replace existing small arms, it may be best served to acquire the latest and most adaptable designs available, as opposed to compromising due to cost or expediency. While such a move is certainly more expensive in the short-term, it may benefit the Army in the long-term in the form of a capable and fully reliable weapon which could be used with ease for many decades.

    As per the ISPR video, it seems that the Army’s evaluation for a new rifle commenced in November 2015, which is when various vendors were contacted about the Army’s pilot requirements. Actual testing began in January 2016, which had coincided with winter-usage trials as well. Five weapon-types were selected for these trials: FN SCAR, CZ-806 BREN 2, Zastava M21, Beretta ARX-200, and Kalashnikov AK-103.

    [​IMG]
    What seems to be a presentation about a new standard rifle program. Photo credit: ISPR

    At this point, there are scarcely few details available about the program. For example, the Army has not disclosed whether this is the final testing-phase, especially since Heckler Koch (the original supplier of the Army’s G3 battle rifle) is not present. In fact, weapons from Turkey and China are also absent. That said, the presence of these rifles at POF may indicate that this is not a limited-scale program; rather, it will at some point involve discussions about technology transfer and licensed local manufacturing, which will be necessary in order to feasibly arm at least 500,000 Pakistani soldiers.

    Each design has its merits and limitations. For example, the FN SCAR is a highly modular design that can be built into not only a 7.62x51mm battle rifle (SCAR H), but also a 5.56x45mm assault rifle (SCAR L) and even a personal defence weapon (PDW). The SCAR could also be configured (in its 7.62x51mm form) to function as a Sniper Support Rifle (SSR). Similarly, the CZ-806 BREN 2 can be chambered for 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm as well (though the later has not yet been produced by the vendor).

    [​IMG]
    COAS Gen. Sharif inspecting a weapon. Photo credit: ISPR

    A single core design that could be built to meet multiple distinct requirements could be a major drawing point for the Army. In fact, such a system would not only meet the needs of the Army, but in time, it could be scaled for use by Pakistan’s LEAs, paramilitary, special operations forces, as well as the Army’s sister arms, i.e. Air Force and Navy.

    The upfront cost of absorbing the capacity for local manufacturing will be a sticking point, but if POF succeeds in acquiring commercial offsets (such as being the source for certain parts and/or being permitted to export rifles to certain markets), any rifle could be a feasible acquisition. Given the scale of the program, most of the vendors may not be averse to being flexible with POF. Moreover, the Army (as well as other arms) will order new rifles on an incremental basis over the long-term, thus, the total program cost can be distributed over the long-term.

    Hopefully, specific details will be made available during IDEAS 2016.

    http://quwa.org/2016/03/16/pakistan-army-looking-new-standard-infantry-rifles/

    Some by looking at pictures which have come till now are also claiming that SIG 716 is also among the Guns which are being tested to replace G3.
     
    Illusive likes this.
  2.  
  3. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

    [​IMG]


    ISLAMABAD — Trials are underway to select a new firearm for the Pakistan army to replace its G3 battle rifle and Chinese Type-56 AK-47 clones, which will also include upgrading facilities at the state-owned Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF).

    Modernization efforts of the POF facilities are aimed at enhancing export success in what is a core export defense industry for Pakistan.

    The news came during a Tuesday visit to a POF facility at Wah by head of the Army Gen. Raheel Sharif, who according to a press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media branch, was making his second trip “to see the progress of envisaged modernization and capacity enhancement of POF.”

    During the visit, Sharif inaugurated a new ammunition production plant, which is part of an expansion plan. POF chief Lt. Gen. Omar Mahmood Hayat briefed Sharif, who thanked the factory's support in providing arms and ammunition for the ongoing counter terrorist operations.

    Sharif also “emphasized the need for further technological upgradation to optimize the output” to ensure self reliance in arms-and-ammunition needs for the civilian and military security services.

    He pushed for more efforts to secure new markets for POF products.

    However, the presence of a series of foreign rifles at POF seen during the Sharif's visit drew attention to a little publicized competition to find a new standard rifle for the military.

    From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21.

    There has been a longstanding requirement for a new service rifle and approximately 10 years ago the army expressed requirement for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

    POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

    Instead, the military acquired large numbers of the Chinese Type-56 clone of the AK-47. It also modified the G3 to produce the G3S, which was a carbine/para variant of the battle rifle, and the G3M, which has a series of rail attachments to fit a range of grips, sighting devices, and under-barrel grenade launcher.

    When asked about the new rifles, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence Production confirmed trials were underway for a new service rifle.

    “Pakistan army wants to induct new rifles. Trials are going on for the rifles. But nothing has been finalized yet.”

    The spokesperson also highlighted that the new ammunition plant was aimed at enhancing existing production capacity, and that “Up-gradation remaining within [POF’s] core area may be carried [out] depending upon technological development in future.”

    POF was also open to entering into joint ventures with foreign companies.

    Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said there is nothing inherently wrong with the current weapons being used, but that newer ones are more effective.

    “The G-3 and AK-47/Type 56 rifles have been popular in the army, but later weapons are certainly more effective, especially in the weight-to-kill power-ratio,” he said. “The AK-103, for example, is a very long way ahead of the AK-47 and has the attraction of using 7.62x39mm ammunition which has excellent stopping power and is readily available.”

    Therefore, Cloughley said, Pakistan’s military “wants to move with the times and is most serious about procuring a new rifle, which is why the trials of five systems are now taking place.”

    A deal will likely eventually lead to the military procuring some 500,000 rifles or more, therefore it is a lucrative deal, but one which Pakistan will insist involves licensed production, and the results of this could be known later in the year.

    “In the selection process, the most important aspect is plain effectiveness in battle," said Cloughley. "But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”

    Cloughley said it will undoubtedly include upgrading POF facilities, though not necessarily in conjunction with the winning design.

    “POF is a success story, but some of the plant and machinery is getting old and needs replacement, which is expensive. Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.

    Cloughley added: “Raheel has always placed emphasis on domestic production of arms and ammunition, and what he said during his recent visit to Wah was consistent with overall government policy.”

    Though this may be achieved reasonably well however, true success will likely be measured elsewhere.

    “What POF really needs is an overseas market, but that is extremely difficult to break into,” Cloughley said.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-rifle-upgraded-ordnance-facilities/81882200/
     
  4. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    AK-103.JPG
    AK-103
    M21.jpg
    M-21 Serbia
    Berreta ARX 200.png
    Berreta ARX-200 CZ-806 BREN A2.jpg
    CZ-806 Bren A2
    FN SCAR.jpg
    FN SCAR

    These are the Guns which Pakistan is testing so we can replace our G3.
     
    Black knight and Illusive like this.
  5. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    4,153
    Likes Received:
    6,909
    G3M is a good rifle (if it 5.56) IMO Pak will most likely induct Chinese QBZ series or Turk one due to the easy technology transfer and cost.
     
  6. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    FN-SCAR as a standard issue rifle for a nation that has a defence budget of <$6BN?? Misplaced priorities or what? These won't be coming through any form of aid I assume so how exactly does the PA hope to pay for this? The SCAR is about $2-3000 alone, add a scope and other accessories it is $4-5000.

    This is pie in the sky thinking for the PA, they should either build something in house (if the PAF is able to supposedly contirbute to designing the JF-17, the PA can surely make their own assualt rifle) or get something from the Chinese.
     
    Black knight likes this.
  7. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    Yep. Something based off the QBZ-03 might be eventually purchased...

    [​IMG]

    ...if not the Turkish MPT-76.

    [​IMG]

    Even the QBZ-95 might be considered, but I don't think PA likes bullpups very much. If one of the rifles listed above have to be selected, could be either Russian/East European AK variants.
     
    abingdonboy likes this.
  8. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    China and Turkey are surely the front runners given Pakistan's buying patterns.

    Why they don't utilise their US aid money for masses of M4s I don't know. Their SFs use it as their main weapon but they don't want to induct it for their regulars? A strange, strange army.
     
    Gessler likes this.
  9. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    They would love to...if the Terrorism & Religios Dogma Ministry wasn't lapping up the funds to buy Type-56s for the tangos.

    Also, what Pak gets is, unfortunately for them, decided in Washington.
     
    abingdonboy likes this.
  10. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    Surely but if the Pakis can dupe the Yanks that Blk. 52 F-16s are for their anti-terror operations, they can surely make the case far easier for a few 100,000 M4s. The US likely has 10s of thousand laying around in storage anyway.
     
    Gessler likes this.
  11. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Location:
    Vizag, India
    The US clearly knows whatever happens with it's weapons provided to Pakistan as aid. Pakistan can neither dupe nor convince the US to do something it wouldn't want or like - they'd either need to have vast wealth or a lot of diplomatic power to do that. They have neither.

    Their only calling card is their proximity to Afghanistan and the situation there. In the US-Pak relationship, US is the one in full control, rest assured about that.
     
    abingdonboy likes this.
  12. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Messages:
    6,998
    Likes Received:
    7,541
    Location:
    21°N 78°E / 21°N 78°E
    @Zarvan Kya baat. Bade din baad nazar aaya. :laugh:
     
  13. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    No we didn't even invited Chinese and Turkey in competition. So it tells we are not interested in Chinese or Turkish weapons
     
  14. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    We know How to arrange the money and we would but it with TOT.
     
  15. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    Mr we didn't invited Chinese or Turkish Company winter trials are already over and desert trials will begin soon
     
  16. Nuvneet Kundu

    Nuvneet Kundu Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    1,462
    Likes Received:
    2,524
    Which rifle was used to kill your children in Peshawar? Seems like a pretty effective rifle to me; Is it in the competition as well?
     
    raja696 and maomao like this.
  17. maomao

    maomao Veteran Hunter of Maleecha Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2010
    Messages:
    4,497
    Likes Received:
    4,142
    They will end up buying some chinese shyt (obviously rejected by PLA) and wasted R&D cost being recovered from pakistan paid by the US taxpayers to pakistan as bhik!

    Harsh reality! ;)
     
    raja696 likes this.
  18. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Messages:
    4,153
    Likes Received:
    6,909
    Mr. You already have QBZ in limited numbers, the question is of mass produce and i don't think Pak will ever induct SCAR H/L.

    In any case the future lies in Multi caliber modular assault rifle which most modern militaries will equip their armed forces.

    US forces preferred 7.62 over their M4s in counterinsurgency ops so does India AKs for CI ops and 5.56 Insas as regular infantry weapon.

    MCIWS has been designed to rectify this discrepancy.
     
  19. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    We are not buying Chinese we are not even testing them
     
  20. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Lahore
    Pakistan is testing FN SCAR and if it passes tests we would definitely induct it
     
    Bornubus likes this.
  21. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    You also beleive the PAF is going to get the EFT or Rafale and the PN is going to get the T-45 destroyers (circa $1.4BN USD each).

    Pakistan is a nation whose GDP is only $300BN (about the same as Mumbai), you need to keep your dreams a bit more realistic.
     
    prateikf and Gessler like this.

Share This Page