Pakistan: On the Frontier of the Apocalypse

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Redhawk, Jan 25, 2015.

  1. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    An article on Pakistan written by Christopher Hitchens for the January 2002 edition of Vanity Fair. It is too long to copy and paste, but a link below is provided to the article. As with anything written by Hitchens, it is well worth reading and his assessment is accurate and germane to the current situation of Pakistan.

    Pakistan: On the Frontier of the Apocalypse
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
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  3. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    Pakistan still remains most allied Non-Nato ally of West,( at least its military rulers are). Civilian leaders have been and still ,are under the thumb of Generals who are addicted to western money and weapons. The irony is that 95% Pakistanis have, now become west haters in spite of receiving biliions of dollars of donations and free or subsidized weaponry. It will be interesting to see how West will deal with this Frankenstein monster which it created.
     
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  4. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    You will not beat Pakistan until you understand the nature of its army. The Pakistan Army does not owe allegiance to Pakistan. It owes its allegiance to itself in part, and Islam in part. To it, the people of Pakistan are raw-material, and only a partial source of funds. They're like crop in the fields for the army. The Pakistani taxpayer is not the army's sole source of monies. It's foreign military aid. So it's only natural that the army's loyalties are split.

    The Pakistan Army is a great consultancy for the west to use in this region. The politics of this entire region can be shaped by making the Pakistan army behave in a certain way. It has its fingers in not just India's security, but also its politics, media and film-industry. It can conduct psy-ops against India.

    India's approach to beating Pakistan army on the battlefield, and capturing a few agents or saboteurs will not help. Nor will blind retaliation against Pakistan. Pak Army wants India to punish Pakistani people, so it feeds the India boogeyman in Pakistan. Our approach should be to destablize the Pakistani Army. Bathe key people in money, keep yourself informed, destabilize and sabotage the organization. The rest of Pakistan will fall in place.

    Pakistan Army wants you to think that it's wielding nukes for the entire Sunni-Islamic world. For the reasons I mentioned before, it won't be deterred by a mere threat of retaliation against Pakistan, in the event of a nuclear strike. India must extend the threat of retaliation against the entire Sunni-Islamic world, in the event of a Pakistani first-strike (Israel's policy), while cultivating better economic ties with them than Pakistan can offer. That will not only isolate Pakistan from the rest of the Sunni-Islamic world, but also make it pressurize Pakistan to keep off India's back.

    The conflict between India and Pakistan is not a military conflict over disputed territory. It's a clash of two civilizations, and ideologies. India will win that conflict the moment it realizes the nature of the conflict. Pakistan has waged a war on the idea of India. Our retaliation must be equally wholesome. We have more resources on our side.
     
  5. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    @tarunraju, India need not go hyper either on Pakistan or its Army. INDIA NEEDS TO STRENGTHEN ITS SECURITY STRUCTURES BOTH EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL.

    The destiny will take care of Pakistan.

    Country like Pakistan cannot last long. It is a lamp that burns fast, soon its oil will be depleted.
     
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  6. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    A defensive and non-reactive approach will not defeat Pakistan. Pakistan does not see defeats on the battleground as a bad thing. The attempt counts more than victory. It just dusts itself up and gets ready for the next attack. India cannot strengthen itself without security. They are aggressive towards pacifists, but skittish against aggression.

    Pakistan is resilient. Destiny can push Pakistanis to living in ruins, dressed in rags, and eating one meal a day. That will not stop Pakistan from pursuing India. To defeat Pakistan you must destabilize the Pakistan army.

    If we're not as active against Pakistan army, as it is against us, Pakistan will last forever.
     
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  7. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    Is Pakistan as resilient as that other artificial creation, North Korea? North Korea has been hanging on by its fingernails for decades. But I don't think Pakistan is as resilient as North Korea. For a start, it is a far more populous country at roughly 180 million people, compared to about 24 million for North Korea. It obviously has far more internal stresses and strains at work than North Korea with a crippling internal terrorist problem and an atrocious internal economy: Pakistan is not even self-sustaining let alone self-reliant. If the U.S. decided it no longer wanted to support Pakistan, it could throttle the country at will. Perhaps China and/or Saudi Arabia might be interested in subsidising Pakistan, but I doubt it. And it is precisely that Pakistan is so materially vulnerable that the Indians ought to be pressing Pakistan and forcing the country's collapse.

    How is it in the West's interests to have the Pakistani army move against India? The West can no more manipulate the Pakistani army as make the sun rise in the west and set in the east.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  8. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    I don't know if India (or for that matter, the U.S.) has contingency plans for intervention in the event of a Pakistani internal collapse, but it might be an area that warrants investigation. Seizing and securing Pakistan's nuclear arsenal would have to be one item high on the agenda. It is in no-one's interests to see Pakistani nuclear weapons in the hands of religiously fanatical hillbillies.
     
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  9. Sambha ka Boss

    Sambha ka Boss Regular Member

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    I believe you should watch some videos of Christine Fair to understand the nature of Pakistani state. She has elaborated it quite well.
     
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  10. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Pearls of wisdom, specially the highlighted part. :hail:
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    @Redhawk,

    Pakistan? :shocked:

    Two quotes come to mind.

    1. A Nation inherits an Army. The Pakistan Army has inherited a Nation.

    2. China will fight India to the last Pakistani - Lt Col Wu of the Canadian Army on WAB.
     
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  12. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Sometimes a western big-ticket business isn't able to get market-access. A few phonecalls later, that access is granted at the threat of movements by Pakistani sleeper-cells.
     
  13. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    I hardly think so. But if you wish to think that the West is manipulating the situation between India and Pakistan, you are at perfect liberty to do so.
     
  14. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    i do agree with you when you say that a non-(re) active role against pak army is unable to ......etxc etc
    and i geve it a like for the logic flow and overall composition of the post

    but i would word it differently ...... what we must avoid is a passive response to pak army

    however to take them on head on and in direct fashion is almost asking for suicide


    because, while their civilian systems are in a mess, not so with their military
    they have had a military attitude, religion and culture far more advanced than our peaceful one and
    for far longer , centuries longer
    the military approach is their area of strength , indeed, their only one
    and when you fight another in their areas of strength , you give them an unnecessary strength
    if not advantage

    and indirect approach is not weak , it can be strong, tough , just that
    avoids playing on the adversary's turf

    so an indirect approach more like the rug under their feet is the way
    take their army on head on and we may suffer unduly for it

    do it another way , their are many ways instead of the tunnel-visoned approach of
    direct military respoinse .......indeed i think india has been doing it already , if not deliberately
    then rather by virtue of circumstance in india's favour

    what we need to do is enhance those indirect approaches
    while at the same time holding out a genuine olive branch, ....to packland !
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  15. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    At this point of time, West has no advantage nurturing and using Pakistan as Paki nation is becoming weaker and weaker by each day . As far Saudi Arabia, 90 % of its economy is oil and oil is in bad shape so their capacity to keep donating money to Pakistan is declining by each day. Some people still want to spread this myth that Pakistani military is powerful..this type of bulls*hit is being spread to scare India to sell very expensive weapons. China does not have any interest in catching a falling knife (Pakistan) They know it well.
    The way Pakistan is going, it is already committing slow motion suicide. Yes, disintegration of Pakistan and fall of its nukes in terrorist hand will be deadly blow to Israel and western countries and therefore, west is still trying to please Pakistan out of this fear and waning hope that Paki military can be used in the future against the Giants like India or China. West can continue its hegemony only IF it succeeds in making India and China arch-enemies. This is not likely as these two giants are more interested in trade than in war.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    So china is peace loving country?
    China did not go to war with india in 1962?
    China did not point 600 IRBM's at Delhi?
    China did not annex Tibet?
    China did not give nuclear weapons to Pakistan?
    China did not adopt a string of pearls around india?
    China did not support terrorists communist movements in northeast?
    China is not stealing waters of the Brahmaputra ?
    China us not stealing territory in ap?

    Oh yes it is the west? China is completely innocent.
     
  17. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    My point was that until now, you've been preventing Pak Army's ability to achieve victory (by staying ahead in the arms/numbers game). You must instead prevent Pak Army's ability to "achieve" attempts. The attempt is the achievement.

    Of course I'm not suggesting that we go 'head-on' in the sense of engaging them in battle, but a systematic destabilization of the organization, inside-out. Pak Army's allegiance to Islam is as partial as its allegiance to itself is.

    Pakistanis aren't Klingons (theirs is not a militant religion). They are aggressive against pacifism, but skittish in the face of aggression.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
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  18. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    What a lot of crap! Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand are the "most allied [sic] Non-Nato ally of West [sic]".

    Pakistan is such a bad ally of the U.S. and the West and such a hindrance to the West's goals and objectives that she is, for all practical purposes, a de facto enemy. Pakistan was bought by the U.S. during the Cold War so the U.S. could have air bases near the Soviet Union and Pakistan was kept on the U.S. payroll; it was bought or bribed again after 9/11 so the Americans could have overland access to Afghanistan as Afghanistan is a landlocked country and the U.S. forces' supply route had to go through Pakistan. And that is why Pakistan has been kept on the payroll: because of its geography, pure and simple.

    The West has little or nothing in common with Moslem Pakistan, unlike multi-ethnic, multi-religion India where we do have much in common.

    Many Western people have a great interest in India, her civilisation, and her culture. Much of the language I am writing in now is descended from Sanskrit through Latin and Greek. The figures from 0 to 9 used in the West are erroneously called Arabic numerals in the West when they should be called Indian numerals. The Arabs pinched Indian numerals from you, the Indians, and we pinched them from the Arabs, hence the misnomer Arabic numerals. But interested and educated folk all know that they were of Indian provenance.

    One of the big "ifs" of history for me is I wonder what would have happened if one or all of the Dharmic religions, Hinduism and Buddhism, had spread West out of the Subcontinent to western Asia and Europe instead of East to China, Japan, and through South-east Asia. I wonder what would have happened if the Semitic Abrahamic and polytheistic religions of Europe had to compete with the Dharmic religions of India and with a greater measure of Indian thought in philosophy. That is one of the fascinating "what-ifs" of ancient history.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  19. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Dharmic religions don't spread through conquest. They spread through reasoning. You have Dharmic religions as far away as Japan, while West Asia was a fountainhead of religions that spread through conquest.
     
  20. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    Yes, I realise that. The Dharmic religions could have passed to the West by means of reasoning. I am mistrustful of religions that are spread by the sword. They are inherently insecure. The Graeco-Bactrian Kingdom had many Buddhists, many were ethnic or "oriental" Greeks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  21. Redhawk

    Redhawk Regular Member

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    Excellent article by Kapil Komireddi. Well worth reading.

    The demise of Pakistan is inevitable by Kapil Komireddi
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015

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