Pakistan objects to US' Afghan surge

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by LETHALFORCE, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Pakistan objects to US' Afghan surge - Yahoo! India News

    Pakistan objects to US' Afghan surge


    New York, July 22 (ANI): While the United States is planning a massive surge in Afghanistan, what may be seen as a final assault against Al-Qaeda, theTaliban and other extremist groups, Pakistan is not supportive of any such US move.

    Pakistan intelligence officials say Islamabad is apprehensive about the expanding US offensive, as it feels that it could create further problems in already troubled Balochistan.

    Pakistan fears that allied troops fighting in southen Afghanistan will force the militants across the border into the country, which can inflame Balochistan further, officials said.

    They said Pakistan does not have enough troops to counter the infiltration on its western border, and moreover it can not afford to move troops from the Indian border, The New York Times reports.

    Pakistan's stand clearly suggests that it still considers India the prime threat and the Taliban a problem that can be tackled or negotiated.

    It also points towards probable fissures in the alliance engaged against the outlawed outfits in Afghanistan.

    The Obama administration has expressed its frustration many a times in the recent past over Pakistan's inaction against the full array of Islamic militants using the country as a base.

    After intense international pressure, Islamabad initiated operation against the Taliban, which it felt is threatening country's sovereignty, while ignoring the Taliban and other terrorist groups fighting Americans in Afghanistan or terrorizing India, US officials said.

    The US believes that Pakistan was still picking proxies and choosing enemies among various Islamic militant groups inside the country.

    General Stanley A. McChrystal, who is the new leader of NATO combat operations in Afghanistan, recently said that Pakistan must crush the terror safe havens based on its soil which the Afghan Taliban utilize for their operations.

    "What I would love is for the government of Pakistan to have the ability to completely eliminate the safe havens that the Afghan Taliban enjoy," said McChrystal. (ANI)
     
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  3. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/indian-sub-continent-china/2601-pakistan-political-military-developments-5.html 43# Permalink
    The divide is very evident in many issues since the operation has started in afghanistan. Pakistani concerns are very genuine as they want to keep these terrorists alive from the day one. They are assets to pakistan. its like to be or not be as after 9/11 when were threatened to be sent back to stone age. After SWAT operation they are having a feeling of genuine partner in US's war against terror and so they want to negotiate. Due to internal pressure from their own nourished jihadies they are in a mode of damage control cause at the end of day they are going to ask help from these assets to destabilize India.
     
  4. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    they will object because now they will have to act.
     
  5. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    It is more of a sad case of confusion between the Good and Bad Taliban. Many still don't see that fundamentally there is no difference. Though the 'have to do' something is also a small problem. India is still their big focus and it is the big bogey in the east for them.
     
  6. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    very true
    what i think (may be wrong) NATO forces are very much pre planned(they should be, of course) about threat perception of Pakistani double games and have very clear objective specially after swat operation's average out come(there are many recent articles that Taliban is not completely eradicated in Pakistan, they are again building up and are going on strive for civil war in SWAT. Most of the casualties were civilians in these operation.
    It can be affirmed by unprecedented refuge of civilians from SWAT. It was not expected by GOP and was not an official plan but was distrust of people living in those areas for govt of Pakistan. it was clearly observed by many media and independent NGOs and civilians itself that Taliban strong hold were not even flushed/touched even during Pakistan army's hyperventilation operations. Why there was no migration of civilians from SWAT during drone attack? cause they were(most of them) more precise and Taliban specific).

    NATO diplomacy with Pakistan is due to dependency on supplies. Also it was assumed durin US elections that operations in Afghan will end very soon.
    But recent increase in surge/forces by US and allies in afghanistan show a different aspect; less pakistan concentric/more independent and fortunately not entertaining Pakistan's cunning aspirations.
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    hit i would not completely agree with you NATO/USA know pakistan's double role and they are trying to cause an implosion of pakistan in my opinion, destabalize it.
     
  8. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    India is an excuse, India has assured USA they will not do anything to Pakistan while WOT operations are conducted. India could have easily went to war after 26/11 like most of the country wanted but they honored their pledge to USA.The problem is Pakistan wants the US aid and free money without taking any action. They have created the terror in the East and West and do not know how to keep it while mugging USA for aid.
     
  9. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    I agree sir, that is why i was saying (may be wrong).
    I was reading one article where NATO difficulties were discussed in Afganistan and its inability capture Osama. there were few lines mentioning porous border, possibilities of some PA's pro Taliban elements to shelter and feed these running back terrorist to ambush/attack Allies flushed pockets again. Only western media is breaking news about PA, ISI links with Al qaeda which is proving the same, cause most of the news are out sourced by their links within NATO forces i assume.
    Even in Australia many fumes are seen in media about many factors causing fatality of oz soldiers including few mentioned above.
     
  10. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Yes India is used as the excuse, (note excuse not reason).
    The militancy problem is semi self manufactured in several ways and they have done little over some 60 odd years to resolve many of the underlying issues in FATA and NWFP.
     
  11. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Not sure if the US is that stupid seriously. In many ways that will cause more problems than they, the US, or India or Iran would care to poke a stick at.

    @Hit:
    Even in Australia many fumes are seen in media about many factors causing fatality of oz soldiers including few mentioned above.

    What media?
    The media is flapping about as it looks good for their readers and viewers. Go talk to the services first. We have had 11 deaths so far. Some from IEDs. The biggest stink was the medical evacuation stuffup which did cause one soldier to die. The rest of the media jun is the media trying to stir up news. Neither party has said they want out now.
     
  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Ratus the reason I said that was Pakistan's whole existence and policy is based on terror, the public mindset for most not all is a jihadi mindset,for the government to stray from this and fight a legitimate war on terror would mean the end of the government, in many ways it is similar to a civil war what the government (acts like it) wants VS what the people want. But almost all the 9/11 terrorists were traced to Pakistan in one some shape or form so for future security of many nations something had to be done.
     
  13. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Not disagreeing with you. This brings us all back to perception of good and bad Taliban. This is the perception of the people and to some extent parts of the military. As for the government I have questions of their ability to go beyond pretense of being a government. It is more of mini dynasties, (with the appropriate x% cut :D ).
    Again many of these militants have a hold in FATA because the government at national level have never tried to do much more than 'take' and no return to the people. One of the big reasons the TTP got a hold was introducing a concept of fast justice. Socially these areas have been ignored by the GOP and they now reap the seed of neglect.

    Perhaps they should never have had a democratic government, possibly a Zia return would have been better. (loose comment here)
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Good and bad Taliban was the premise by Pakistan to make peace treaties with taliban, Do we know if they made them with the good taliban or the bad taliban?? Afghans feel they have suffered 2 wars both launched by Pakistan where they were the victims and gained little from either war, relations between the pahtun/afghans and punjabi/pakistanis will never be good as they have been made the scapegoats by pakistanis, while the original Taliban was a pakistani creation. As long as the war is not taken inside pakistan there will be no concrete results, pakistan will just hide the terrorists until the war ends than buisness as usual. Obama has said war will not be taken inside pakistan but with the surge coming i don't know if he will be able keep this promise.
     
  15. Antimony

    Antimony Regular Member

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    Here's a novel suggestion to the Pakistani establi9shment:

    Go ahead and build that fence that you so desperately seem to want, and then gun down (or more politely engage by deployment of munitions) every militant (freedom fighter? mujaheedin? good taliban?) that you see trying to enter Pakistan from Afghanistan
     
  16. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Afghanistan withdrawal by 2014 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


    Coalition 'just buying time' on Afghan plateau

    :connie_running:
    By Australia Network's Thom Cookes

    Posted Mon May 18, 2009 11:00am AEST
    Updated Mon May 18, 2009 1:24pm AEST

    In a small, whitewashed room, about 20 people are crammed around the walls, the table crowded with teacups and bowls of almonds, bananas and sultanas.

    US Army Major Aaron Wolfe smiles, leans back for a deep breath, and shakes his head in frustration.

    To a large extent, the Obama administration's new Afghanistan and Pakistan policy hinges on the patience and tact of people like Major Wolfe and his colleagues.

    A small force of American and Romanian troops are embedded inside Forward Operating Base Apache, a fortified camp ringed by watch-towers and blast barriers, set on a barren plateau outside the town of Qalat in Zabul province, south-east Afghanistan.

    This is the field headquarters for the 2nd Brigade, 205th Corps of the Afghan National Army (ANA), and the coalition troops are mentoring the ANA soldiers - not in a classroom, but out on the battlefield itself.

    "It is a combat mission, and we're advising during combat," Major Wolfe says.

    There simply are not enough troops to pull them out of the battle, so the mentoring continues as bullets whiz past and improvised explosives blow up the ANA and coalition vehicles.

    "It's not ideal," the Major concedes.

    A daily liaison meeting with the local ANA commander has devolved into yet another free-for-all, as Afghan soldiers chat on their mobile phones and even the commander picks up his handset and dials a number while one of his officers is in mid-brief.

    Add to this the constant translations between English, Dari and Pashtu, and it is sometimes just too much for an ordered military mind.

    "A lot of the social conventions in the west are not equalled here, like leaving your cellphone off or sticking with the person you are talking to through a meeting," Major Wolfe says.

    "[The people here] are used to living moment by moment and taking everything as it comes. You get used to it and learn to work with the things you can change."

    As I watch the operations briefing, one of the ANA officers marks on the map where his men have been attacked; six dead and 11 wounded during the last week.

    Current plans call for the ANA to be grown to 122,000 men, but there is already talk in Washington of that figure more than doubling in the near future.

    "At the end of the day, the Afghan security forces are the final solution to the security problem in Afghanistan," says Colonel William Hix, who runs the the US training effort in the South.

    "Any presence or action that the Coalition takes really only buys time, or presents a temporary effect."


    Local powerbrokers

    Here in Qalat, the 2nd Brigade's commander, Major-General Jamal-Uddin, nominally commands about 3,000 troops, of which some 2,200 are trained and in the field.

    A Tajik and former Northern Alliance mujahidin commander, he is a snapshot of Afghanistan's turbulent history.

    On the wall is a picture of the current president, Hamid Karzai, but pride of place on the desk is a portrait of Ahmed Shah Mahsood, the legendary Afghan commander assassinated by Al Qaeda the day after the September 11 attacks in the United States.

    I ask Major-General Jamal-Uddin if he knew Mahsood well; "Of course," he says, smiling broadly.

    After watching him through several long meetings with various local officials, it is clear that he is politically astute, a player, and to some extent provincial powerbroker in this Pashtu town.

    "Afghans are the ultimate survivors," Major Wolfe says.

    "They know how to fit into a process, they have short memories when they need to, and there's generally not many long-term grudges because they can't afford to hold them."

    Over the last 30 years, many of the older officers here have fought on many different sides of the conflict; for and against the Russians and for and against various insurgent groups, including what is lumped together in the West as "the Taliban".

    Major-General Jamal-Uddin is about to receive a batch of new up-armoured US Humvee vehicles to replace the open, un-armoured pick-up trucks that his troops have now.

    And according to the coalition troops, the security in Zabul, and Qalat particularly, is better than other provinces in the South such as Helmand or Kandahar.

    A US State Department political analyst I speak with says that is due to a complex tribal deal that has been struck here.

    Colonel Jim Overbye, the head of the local US training team, has a more simple explanation.

    "This is a transit area; we are on the Pakistan border here and insurgent groups don't want to draw attention to themselves as they cross over," he says.

    "Why would they whack the coalition or ANA? They know what would happen."

    All mobile and satphone calls across this flat valley are extensively monitored, and even the bare mountains here have few hiding places.

    The insurgents move about by blending in with the traditional nomads, who have always wandered across this area.

    In the past 3,000 years, conflict has always ebbed and flowed across the sand of Zabul.

    The British Army trudged across this plain to Kabul in the 1840s, and during their decade-long war in the 1980s, the Russians mined the top of the plateau next to the forward operating base I am writing from, which explains why the local shepherds do not go up there.

    And perched above the town is an enormous mud and sandstone castle built by Alexander the Great over 2,300 years ago as his armies swept across from Macedonia. It is now an Afghan National Army outpost.

    When you ask people here how long the Coalition forces will be in Zabul, there is an almost universal answer - a cryptic smile and a shake of the head.

    Coalition 'just buying time' on Afghan plateau - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    this area is the same as it has always been for centuries ,the only reason it has come under scrutiny now is the terror that was confined here is no longer confined and has become global.
     
  18. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Please type Pakitan in search box.
    Also i am highly s/o The recent SWAT Operation of PA was/is ineffectual given the fact taliban is disseminated all over Pakistan even in POK and has outnumbered out resourced and out played PA. Reason may be lack of GOP's lack of desire to crush them all; you never know.
    View attachment 802
     
  19. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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  20. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Thanks,i know that,

    I wont mind if you have soft corner for pakistan or you belive in more diplomatic or politicallly correct statement.
    I love Australian army.
    Even your NOT geralized comment has no value since defence forces are still investigating for the same. (The biggest stink was the medical evacuation stuffup which did cause one soldier to die. The rest of the media jun is the media trying to stir up news. Neither party has said they want out now).
    I dont want this discussion be dead locked . i will be more carefull next time.
    Regards.
     
  21. Ratus Ratus

    Ratus Ratus Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Bluntly I don't have a soft corner for anyone, Pakistan or India.
    I just do not like generalised statements which hint at non existent hype.

    Also if you knew anything about the Australian Army or the military here every death is investigated what ever the cause. It is the procedures we have. These have been around form many years and way before our entry to Afghanistan.
     

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