Pakistan: News and Discussions

Antimony

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Reply to Kasrkin

Hello Kasrkin,

First of all, welcome to the Forum. I read your posts with great interest on ********** (I must say that I disagreed with most of your views), though I have not joined that forum myself. I particularly enjoy your bouts with Captain S2

Aren't you an artillery officer? You might want the mods to set you up with the Military Professionals designations.

Ok, now back to the discussion:

And here we are, with decent and well educated individuals, cheering India’s illegal and covert subversive activities in sovereign Pakistani territory. Activities, that Pakistan say, are already well underway. If this is how India makes ‘grounds for peace’ then peace will remain elusive.
I have come across multiple references about India's involvement in terrorist activities in Pakistan, always without any proof. Ok, I take that back. There was proof - uncircumcised penises!!! Apart from that, there has been NO proof available from your side about the involvement of India. Now please don't drag in here the joint statement that says PM Gilani is worried about Baluchistsan or about the dossier of proof that somehow disappeared.

Here is an offer: if you anything concrete on Indian activities to promote terrorism (as against simple espionage and intelligence gathering, which I am sure happens), please shout it from the rooftops across the world. Believe it or not, I absolutely do not want India to give any assistance to those thugs you refer to as the Bad Taliban (as opposed to the Good Taliban to who terrorise the afghanis instead of the Pakistanis). I would like to believe that we have moral superiority over you in this regard

These groups have been banned, their leadership; propaganda, recruiting and financial operations has been forced underground. They still, however, exercise considerable influence and power, especially in Azad Kashmir, but in parts of Punjab as well. These people are part of the population, they enjoy support from the population, and what is more is that they avoid confrontation with the Pakistani state, which makes it harder to identify and act against them
What, in effect, you are saying, is that Pakistan does not have the capability to act against the activities of banned/ illegal groups within the Pakistani territory. I don't know whether I should view this with incredulity or sadness. Especially in light of the fact that Pakistan fell over herself to take action on the Lal Masjid students on the insistence of the Chinese

Exceprt:
June 27, 2007: The Chinese Xinhua news agency reported as follows: "China on Tuesday (June 26, 2007) asked Pakistan to take further measures for the security of the Chinese people and businesses in the South Asian country. "We hope Pakistan will look into the terrorist attacks aiming at Chinese people and organizations as soon as possible and severely punish the criminals," the Chinese Minister of Public Security Zhou Yongkang told visiting Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao. Sherpao's visit came days after seven abducted Chinese --a couple and five of their women employees-- were got released in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad Saturday (June 23, 2007) night. They had been taken away from their residence in Islamabad early Saturday morning by Lal Masjid students. While appreciating the support of the Pakistani Government on helping get the kidnapped Chinese released, Zhou said China expected Pakistan to take active measures to ensure the personal and property security of Chinese working in the country. In response, Sherpao said Pakistan will take more rigorous actions to safeguard the security of Chinese people and organizations in Pakistan."

June 29, 2007: The "Daily Times" of Lahore wrote in an editorial as follows: "During his visit to Beijing, Sherpao got an earful from the Chinese Minister of Public Security, Zhou Yongkang, who asked Pakistan for the umpteenth time to protect Chinese nationals working in Pakistan. The reference was to the assault and kidnapping of Chinese citizens in Islamabad by the Lal Masjid vigilantes. The Chinese Minister called the Lal Masjid mob terrorists who targeted the Chinese, and asked Pakistan to punish the criminals. Mr Sherpao, who must have regretted being in Beijing, lamely rejoined that Pakistan would take more rigorous action to safeguard the security of Chinese people and organisations in Pakistan.
HOW CHINESE ANGER FORCED MUSHARRAF TO ACT AGAINST LAL MASJID

The present Pakistani Chief of the Army Staff does not countenance anything other than Pakistani `popular' support for the Kashmiris, which is, understandably, widespread. There is no question of his
allowing the current ISI Director General to engage in covert operations in support of Kashmiri separatists. Replacement of about 40 senior and middle-ranking ISI officers who were involved in such operations is evidence of the ISI being brought back on the rails of relatively conventional intelligence activities.
And yet you do not see it odd that the ISI and the military establishment tell India that we had better talk to them too, as they make foreign policy too. So which power center should we actually talk to?

Exceprt:
ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Days before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani met in Egypt, the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence floated a suggestion that India deal not just with Pakistan’s civilian government but also directly with its Army and intelligence agency.

Lt. Gen. Shuja Pasha made the out-of-the-box overture during a meeting earlier this month with the three Indian defence advisers representing the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force attached to the Indian High Commission in Islamabad, The Hindu has learnt.
The Hindu : Front Page : ISI chief to India: talk to us, we make policy too

I feel ashamed replying to your posts. This level of racism has left a sour taste in my mouth.
Given that you moderate a board which has people saying that Indians are veggie suckers, that they would like to bathe in the blood of Indians and that the "Good Taliban" should send the "yankee pricks" home in body bags, thats either disingenuos or just plain naive.

That said, there are many here who would like to actually debate with you, not hurl useless diatribes...
 

Vinod2070

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I believe your theory is incorrect. Pakistan's own defense budget is way more than the 1 billions dollars US provides per year, more than half of which is actually reimbursement for Pakistan's expensive anti-terror operations in FATA, these have nothing to do with India. Pakistan's defense spending in itself is around 6-7 billion, therefore it is inaccurate to say that 'Uncle Sam' is behind it all, or even most of it. Uncle Sam serves his own interests, which like I said, are to enhance Pakistan's COIN capabilities. These capabilities would be of little or no use in a war against India.
Actually officially it is $4.5 billion but I guess you are right. It has to be this or even more for Pakistan to be able to maintain the ratio with India. Roughly in order to maintain the 1:3 ratio you need to spend 1/3 of India's budget (that is not even taking into account the benefit of scale).

I have read that Pakistan's military budget needs to be subsidized to the tune of about 25% by other countries (I can dig up if you want). If you look at it, it is a huge figure. Especially if you look at the budget amount available for modernization, it may be almost all of it.

Even the civilian aid given by Uncle Sam helps you spare the money for military and should not be underestimated.
 

Vinod2070

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I see no reason why the rest of Pakistan should 'apologize' for a crime that they didn't commit. Its like an Indian student studying in the UK rapes a British girl, and the British say that 'India should apologize', would that be fair? I don't think so. The Mumbai attacks have been condemned by Pakistan, thus unless it is proved that the Pakistani representative government or institutions were behind it, it would be unfair and racist to try and degrade the whole of Pakistan.
While it is reasonable, apparently there are far too many who approve of the terror attacks like Mumbai overtly or covertly or put a "but" while seemingly in disagreement with them.

You can well understand in what light that represents Pakistan to us.
 

Vinod2070

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If this makes sense to you, then I pity your sense of justice and responsibility. Pakistan has tried its best to stop the flow of fighters from its side of a Disputed Territory to the Indian side. And here we are, with decent and well educated individuals, cheering India’s illegal and covert subversive activities in sovereign Pakistani territory. Activities, that Pakistan say, are already well underway. If this is how India makes ‘grounds for peace’ then peace will remain elusive. India tried the same with its extensive support for terrorists in the sovereign territory of E. Pakistan before, during and after the civil war. That, however, did not deter us from supporting the rebellion that erupted in Occupied Kashmir during the 80s. This course of action, that you think ‘makes sense’, will only drag our countries further down the pit of mutual hate and suspicion.
I guess you guys are too hung up on the perceived difference between "disputed" and "sovereign". For us Kashmir is a sovereign part of India and anything you do there will be responded to in full measure. Too bad if you don't get it still after 1965 and 1999.

About 1971, was Indian support to the rebels the only issue! Not the massive genocide and rapes by the PA? Didn't you have a massive internal problem in your Muslim and Hindu populations of East Pakistan (to use your terminology)? Doesn't that make any other issues seem so minor in comparison?

If you are saying we didn't let you control them by force and unfairly stopped the ongoing genocide, may be you are right. We think we did the right thing.

Come to think of it, once they had decided to be no longer a part of Pakistan, what right did you have to forcibly hold on to a population bigger than yourself that shared nothing except religion (which you also share with the Somalians).

I must say this is incredibly naïve.
I suggest you focus more on the contents of the post rather than labelling the person you are replying to. It makes difficult to argue with you. May be you can do with taking things a bit impersonally.

My words were not even remotely close to anything resembling a threat. A fact is a fact. A problem is a problem. Kashmir is like a road-block on our way to peace. This is a road both our countries have to travel together. If one driver tells another about a road block up ahead, that must be removed in order to proceed, it would be very odd if that driver started accusing his fellow driver of ‘threatening him’. Kashmir is an issue that has poisoned the relationship between both our countries for the better part of a century. In order to move beyond that the issue must be settled in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people who have the universal right of self-determination. Anything short of this will not allow the popular sentiments in both our countries, and in the Disputed Territory of Kashmir, to will for the harmonization of relations between our two states. Lastly, the term ‘coercive diplomacy’ is one that is thrown around by the Indian media to describe India’s policy of using sympathy generated by the Mumbai attacks to disregard, instead of address, Pakistan’s legitimate concerns in regards to the Kashmir issue. The only ‘threat’ to the chances of peace in this region is in India’s misconception that its diplomatic and military muscle can be used to elbow and dismiss international protocol and coerce Pakistan into accepting India’s unilateral, and unrecognized, annexation of Kashmir. If this is your advice to Pakistan, then it is bad advice. Any ‘solution’ agreed upon in disregard to the sentiments of Pakistani and Kashmiri Muslims will only inflame anti-Indian feeling, and will mean the opposite of peace.
Not an apt analogy. Here it is more like a driver threatening to crash his car into you or bombing your car.

Kashmir is an issue because Pakistan is not able to get over it. There is no justification for Pakistan still insisting on Kashmir when there are two more countries in the subcontinent having the same number of Muslims. Heck even Iran and Afghanistan have Muslims, why don't you claim their lands?

Regarding "universal right of self-determination" why don't you start with Balochistan first? Here is what the Baloch think of Pakistan. Do watch the Pakistani video.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/indian-sub-continent-china/541-baluchestan-dossier-5.html#post39482

Now you may want to mix disputed/sovereign/self-determination as per your convenience and it impresses no one. We have seen your track record in honoring self determination in 1971 and repeatedly in Balochistan.
 

Ray

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You forgot about our Eastern neighbour and the buddy of Pakistan. If we start an arms race in the region China too will join the party. As of now, I dont think we can beat Chinese in defence budget and hardware quantity as far as their Growth rate is concerned.

Now, the advantage India have here is its wide options in defence hardware procurement. We have access to the best in the world ie, US, Russian, French and Israeli- a deadly combination. Typical example is Su30 MKI with Russian airframe,Israeli and French avionics.....something China and Pakistan can never dream of.
Since it is OT, I will keep it brief.

The Arms Race is already in motion with China and Pakistan.

China's modernisation of the PLA, PLAN, PLAAF.

China's String of Pearls.

Pakistan's assistance by the US through military hardware under the guise of 'war on terror'.

That is why we are buying so many military hardware including having produced an ATV with two in the pipeline and leasing one ATV from Russia.

Upgrades are being done all the time!
 

Avinash R

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Pakistan for most part of it's pathetic existence was ruled by military dictators who looted the people and funded terror wars in neighbouring india and afghanistan. But some people who are intellectually blind will deny this truth and even call others racist for speaking the truth, typical pakistanis.

Regarding your denial of not funding the various militant groups which now are eating pakistan from inside. Your claim that pakistan didn't fund these blood thirsty groups falls flat on it's face. Even pakistani elected representatives know that this is lie but terrorist propagandists will keep denying this truth.

Pakistan's 'mock war' on Taliban

Pakistan's 'mock war' on Taliban | The Australian

Amanda Hodge, Peshawar | July 23, 2009

Article from: The Australian

A COALITION partner in the Pakistan government has accused the military of staging a "mock war" in the Taliban stronghold of South Waziristan while continuing to aid the export of militants over the border into Afghanistan.

The accusation came as Pakistani intelligence officials revealed the country had objected to the expansion of US military operations in southern Afghanistan, for fear the surge would push militants back into Pakistan and exacerbate unrest in its troubled Baluchistan province.

Pakistan officials told The New York Times they did not have enough troops to fight a Taliban insurgency in Baluchistan, as well as the budding separatist movement there, without depleting forces on its eastern border with India. They added it was in the country's national interest to negotiate with the Islamic militants.

The appeal highlights Pakistan's continuing military obsession with India at the expense of a spiralling militant insurgency, both to its west and within its own borders. Just this week, Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, in a meeting with Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh handed over a dossier outlining apparent evidence of support by Indian spy operatives for the Baluchi separatists, including arms supply and training in Afghanistan.

The US has long believed top Taliban commanders such as Mullah Omar are being harboured in Pakistan and has expressed repeated frustration at Pakistan's failure to act against them.

Latif Afridi, a senior member of the Awami National Party and a leader of the country's lawyers movement, told The Australian the Pakistani military was not serious about routing terrorists in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and still used the Taliban as a tool with which to obtain regional "strategic steps".

South Waziristan is the base of feared Tehrik-e-Taliban (Pakistan Taliban) commander Baitullah Mehsud, and a known launching pad for Taliban attacks on NATO and US forces in Afghanistan.

The Pakistani military, which has been battling Taliban extremists in the Swat Valley and neighbouring districts within the North West Frontier Province since early May, announced last month it would soon launch a ground operation in Waziristan to eliminate terrorists. While the US has continued a campaign of drone missile attack on known Taliban safe havens in Waziristan, Pakistan's military campaign there has so far been confined to a "softening up" phase of occasional airstrikes against militant targets.

Army liaison officer Lieutenant Colonel Baseer Haider Malik said yesterday the military was committed to its operation in South Waziristan but would pursue it at its own pace and not anyone else's timeframe.

"Of course, whatever is necessary is going to be done," he said.

But Mr Afridi, the ANP secretary in charge of FATA affairs, said the military was being dishonest about its operation there.

"These are mere mock operations in order to convince NATO and the US that Pakistan is serious (about fighting) extremists and that Pakistan is not the mother of extremism," he told The Australian.

"But, in fact, extremists are being protected and promoted with the object of destabilising Afghanistan, to compel America to seek Pakistani support, give them dollars and, ultimately, make Afghanistan a stooge state of Pakistan."

Mr Afridi also cast suspicion on the military failure to apprehend any known leaders of the Swat Taliban, whose march towards the capital, Islamabad, earlier this year forced the military to act. "Unless the principal germs -- who have sown the seeds of extremism -- are eradicated, how can we claim the disease has been eradicated? There should be precise operations and hot pursuit of these leaders (but) I am afraid they're being protected".

The US administration believes Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Omar and an inner circle of commanders direct the southern Afghanistan insurgency from the Baluchistan capital of the same name with the tacit support of Pakistani authorities. Pakistan insists Mullah Omar is in Afghanistan.


LOL, so you continue to claim osama never used pakistani soil to attack the soviets. Must be the result of you pakistanis living under the dictatorship which did not tell you this. And before calling others ignorant go read some books on the afghan jihad. Oh wait such books must be banned in pakistan (pureland). How can impure books which expose pakistan's role in killings and murdering innocent civilians be allowed inside pureland.

So all those american aid which pakistan gets is being used fight taliban. Stale joke. Check the new posted above. Mock wars dont count as real war.

So you are growing weary of retarded rants. Must be the hordes of brainwashed talibanis who are high on ghazwa-e-hind who you are troubling you. Dont worry, just shift out of pakistan. And the ISI official did indeed claim about striking a deal with taliban notwithstanding your constant lies, just check the videos.

Even after reading the dossier you cant understand how pakistani controlled terrorists attacked mumbai? Well i cant help if you cant read and understand what's written in simple english. You should blame the pakistani system for not giving you a good education.

LOL, pakistanis levelling charges of racism. Do you even know what racism is? Oh wait what's the name of your country? Pakistan. And what does that mean? Pureland. Your country's name is sign of the level of racism that is prevalent in pakistan. You have named you country in the nazi scheme of things of pure race and impure race. First you change the name of your country to something that is not racist and then lecture us on racism.
 

Kasrkin

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irst of all, welcome to the Forum. I read your posts with great interest on ********** (I must say that I disagreed with most of your views), though I have not joined that forum myself. I particularly enjoy your bouts with Captain S2. Aren't you an artillery officer? You might want the mods to set you up with the Military Professionals designations.
I thank you for the warm welcome. Also disagreement between two educated viewpoints is what makes a forum interesting, so no harm. There, however, does seem to be some confusion. S-2 was the retired artillery officer, not me.

I have come across multiple references about India's involvement in terrorist activities in Pakistan, always without any proof. Ok, I take that back. There was proof - uncircumcised penises!!! Apart from that, there has been NO proof available from your side about the involvement of India. Now please don't drag in here the joint statement that says PM Gilani is worried about Baluchistsan or about the dossier of proof that somehow disappeared.
First of all, you will not find me claiming to have proof or evidence of Indian material support to insurrectionist elements in Pakistan. If the Pakistani establishment has proof, which they say they do, they're keeping their cards very close to the chest presently. Apparently, the Americans and Afghans have been approached with such information. However it has not been made available to the public. I do believe that such support has been extended in the past, and is being done so presently, but I acknowledge your right to dismiss my views due to a lack of evidence. Historically, KGB and KHaD, have been fomenting rebellion in Pakistani territories. These agencies are known to operate closely with RAW, I also know that RAW's mandate is fairly Pakistan specific. Either way, you'll notice that even though we have cases where RAW operatives, involved in terrorist activities, have been arrested, their case has never been admitted to by the Indian authorities. So you're at a liberty to deny it. I will stick to my view, but I will not argue over it.

Believe it or not, I absolutely do not want India to give any assistance to those thugs you refer to as the Bad Taliban (as opposed to the Good Taliban to who terrorise the afghanis instead of the Pakistanis). I would like to believe that we have moral superiority over you in this regard
Pakistan has never acknowledged allowing any 'good Taliban' to operate from its territory against international and Afghan forces in Afghanistan, and neither will I. It is only natural that the Pakistani Army will prioritize between different militant groups operating within the lawless tribal areas with regards those that constitute a greater threat to the Pakistani state and populace. That does not mean that Pakistan is supportive, or appreciative, of groups that keep a lower profile but still use Pakistani territory. Pakistan does not have infinite military resources, only a fraction of what international forces across the border do in fact, and this is going to be a long fight. It is only natural that Pakistan would be prudent enough to address the issue district by district, group by group. Needless to say, a time will come when all non-state factions will be eliminated or expelled from their havens in the tribal areas, that is what the Pakistan Army plans to do eventually. But we need time and support. The Pakistan Army has done a fairly good job so far, given that FATA represents some of the toughest guerrilla territory in the world, demographically and topographically speaking. The War on Terror has been the first time the Pakistani Army entered these legendary and fiercely autonomous tribal areas, the problems there will not be solved in a day. The situation in Afghanistan too will need to be greatly improved, if FATA is to be stabilized and purged entirely.

What, in effect, you are saying, is that Pakistan does not have the capability to act against the activities of banned/ illegal groups within the Pakistani territory. I don't know whether I should view this with incredulity or sadness. Especially in light of the fact that Pakistan fell over herself to take action on the Lal Masjid students on the insistence of the Chinese
It is important for you to understand that these groups like LeT don't operate like the Lal Masjhid brigade. The Lal Masjhid militants had gone crazy, relying on the notion that 'anti-military' political parties will not allow a crackdown against them, they had been indulging in acts of vandalism and terrorism openly for months, right in the middle of our capital city. These groups operating in Azad Kashmir could not be more different, they run no fixed training centers or mosques or madrassahs anymore. They keep changing everything from their hideouts to their names in order to avoid identification and attention. Even their formidable humanitarian wings operate discreetly.

It is not a matter of 'no capability' or 'no will'. Pakistan does have the capability, but is a matter of time, resources and other factors. If India, with its formidable military footprint in the Kashmir valley, has not been able to eliminate these groups operating there despite much heavy-handedness, how can Pakistan do so? Especially when many of these groups, and their cause in Kashmir, has popular appeal and support in Kashmiris and Pakistanis alike. The Pakistan Army has almost eliminated cross border infiltration by these groups so that a window for peace may be opened. India will need to cover the other half and move towards facilitating a genuine and credible solution to the Kashmir dispute, with regards to the wishes of the Kashmiri people, so that these groups can be sidelined, their appeal negated and eventually eliminated entirely.

And yet you do not see it odd that the ISI and the military establishment tell India that we had better talk to them too, as they make foreign policy too. So which power center should we actually talk to?
I'm sure that this report and General Pasha's words, if they were indeed his words, have been taken out of context. Both General Kayani and General Pasha are stanch supporters of civilian control, and of this civilian government in particular. Both, on numerous occasions, have shown an unwillingness to accept much autonomy from their civilian masters, even in military matters, saying that any and all military endeavors will be in accordance with the explicit instructions of the government. We know that General Pasha, at the suggestion from the President, was ready to fly off to India after the Mumbai attacks despite much indignation from within his own military circles. The decision was withdrawn, but General said he would've liked to go. Therefore, I think, General Pasha may have been trying to express the ISI's willingness to cooperate directly with Indian authorities, in the hopes of cementing trust and avoiding bureaucratic hurdles. However, I can assure you, it was not meant to be a disregard to the wishes or importance of the civilian government. It is more probable that this incident was misreported, or someone couldn't resist putting a spin on it, given that it was related by Indian officials and is reported by the Indian press. Pakistan, obviously, has rightly denied it.

Given that you moderate a board which has people saying that Indians are veggie suckers, that they would like to bathe in the blood of Indians and that the "Good Taliban" should send the "yankee pricks" home in body bags, thats either disingenuos or just plain naive.
I know that they're bad eggs everywhere, I don't deny that. But I must point out that in the forum I moderate, we pride ourselves on our neutrality and expect high standards from posters. Had such comments been made on my board, against Indians or anyone else, you could be sure that person would be receiving an infraction atleast. What the rules here are is obviously not for me to judge, but I couldn't help but express my disgust with those particular comments, and others like Pakistan’s ‘pathetic existence’.

That said, there are many here who would like to actually debate with you, not hurl useless diatribes...
Thank you. And I look forward to it.

Actually officially it is $4.5 billion but I guess you are right. It has to be this or even more for Pakistan to be able to maintain the ratio with India. Roughly in order to maintain the 1:3 ratio you need to spend 1/3 of India's budget (that is not even taking into account the benefit of scale).
I disagree with the notion that the ratio of military potential between our two countries has to correspond with the resources available. History is full of such examples where factors like priority, commitment, urgency, bureaucratic effectiveness, perception, organization and discipline determine military efficiency. Pakistan has established a rough military parity with India despite the disparity in defense spending, which is significant by all accounts. If Pakistan can withhold financial information pertaining to secret projections like nuclear missiles and research, then so would India I imagine. There is no point arguing over the exact state of military balance between India and Pakistan, because in war innumerable variables come into account. However Pakistan’s military capacity has fared fairly well, even by India’s own estimates. With the new, supposedly assertive, civilian government and parliament in place, transparency in regards to Pakistan’s defense budget is at its highest. And no one imagines that Pakistan’s spending is or can compete with India.

Even the civilian aid given by Uncle Sam helps you spare the money for military and should not be underestimated.
Civilian aid stabilizing the Pakistani economy and thus its military spending is something you will have to live with I guess. It would be naïve, however, to think that Pakistan is running on American aid alone.

While it is reasonable, apparently there are far too many who approve of the terror attacks like Mumbai overtly or covertly or put a "but" while seemingly in disagreement with them.

You can well understand in what light that represents Pakistan to us.
I can see how disinformation can allow for the belief that Pakistanis are glad or appreciative of the Mumbai attacks. However this is simply not the case. I’ve come across many right wing Pakistanis, but not one of them said that he/she approved of the Mumbai massacre. Pakistanis are decent humans as well, who know the difference between right and wrong.
 

Vinod2070

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I disagree with the notion that the ratio of military potential between our two countries has to correspond with the resources available. History is full of such examples where factors like priority, commitment, urgency, bureaucratic effectiveness, perception, organization and discipline determine military efficiency. Pakistan has established a rough military parity with India despite the disparity in defense spending, which is significant by all accounts. If Pakistan can withhold financial information pertaining to secret projections like nuclear missiles and research, then so would India I imagine. There is no point arguing over the exact state of military balance between India and Pakistan, because in war innumerable variables come into account. However Pakistan’s military capacity has fared fairly well, even by India’s own estimates. With the new, supposedly assertive, civilian government and parliament in place, transparency in regards to Pakistan’s defense budget is at its highest. And no one imagines that Pakistan’s spending is or can compete with India.
Well, if you look at the numbers (both people and equipment with the two forces), it is apparent that Pakistan can't manage the ratios with a military budget that is 1/6 to 1/7 of India. May be you can explain. I am not even talking of any other factors here, just hard numbers.

Civilian aid stabilizing the Pakistani economy and thus its military spending is something you will have to live with I guess. It would be naïve, however, to think that Pakistan is running on American aid alone.
You derived a wrong message from my post. I just said that the significance of the US support is not as small as you suggested. I never said it is running on USA support alone.

I can see how disinformation can allow for the belief that Pakistanis are glad or appreciative of the Mumbai attacks. However this is simply not the case. I’ve come across many right wing Pakistanis, but not one of them said that he/she approved of the Mumbai massacre. Pakistanis are decent humans as well, who know the difference between right and wrong.
Well, I have also interacted with many Pakistanis. I have my conclusions based on that. There are many who didn't approve of it. There are many who supported it, overtly or covertly by linking it to extraneous factors.
 

Ray

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Originally Posted by Kasrkin View Post

If this makes sense to you, then I pity your sense of justice and responsibility. Pakistan has tried its best to stop the flow of fighters from its side of a Disputed Territory to the Indian side. And here we are, with decent and well educated individuals, cheering India’s illegal and covert subversive activities in sovereign Pakistani territory. Activities, that Pakistan say, are already well underway. If this is how India makes ‘grounds for peace’ then peace will remain elusive. India tried the same with its extensive support for terrorists in the sovereign territory of E. Pakistan before, during and after the civil war. That, however, did not deter us from supporting the rebellion that erupted in Occupied Kashmir during the 80s. This course of action, that you think ‘makes sense’, will only drag our countries further down the pit of mutual hate and suspicion.
Have you seen the youtube embedding I did on Balochistan in Post 58?

They are from the Pakistan TV programme 'Policy Matters'.

Observe what the Balochis have to say!

That should indicate the 'sham democracy' that President Gen Parvez Musharraf said that Pakistan always had and which characterises the ethos of Pakistani democracy and its so called sense of 'Justice and Responsibility' that you lament that we don’t have!

Maybe you could reply to Post 58.

I reiterated that Pakistan created the terrorists and abetted them. So says, Brig Yousef in his book Bear Trap! It is a Pakistani ISI deputy who says that not us. The world says it too! And all intelligence agencies of the world cannot be wrong en masse and Pakistan alone is right!

This might also help:

Pak Minister ran a jehadi camp : India fumes over revelations by Yasin Malik


June 13, 2005

The peace atmospherics with Pakistan have received a severe jolt with the cover of a senior Minister, a closest aide of President Musharraf, being blown by a visiting Kashmiri separatist.
Pak Minister ran a jehadi camp

Remember Kunduz where Pakistani troop in the guise of foreign fighter were evacuated by the Pak Air Force?
Pakistan Assists Foregn Fighters

As a Bengali, I assure you that irrespective of our religion, our language and culture is paramount. The Hamdoor Commission Report should give you an idea what West Pakistan brutality and inhuman behaviour caused the Bengalis to rise.

Mujibur Rehman won the election, but you denied him his rightful place. Would the Bengalis not revolt where a democratic system is subverted for West Pakistani gains? Further, I do appreciate that democracy is an unknown utopia in Pakistan……but still it was not given a shot at!

Zia murdered a democratically elected ZA Bhuto!

So spare us your justice and responsibility platitudes.

There was no rebellion in J&K. It was Pakistani sponsored.

Please read Lawrence's 'Vale of Kashmir' to understand the Kashmiris!
 

Ray

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I'm astounded that you're ignorant enough to claim that the Pakistani state sheltered OSL. Osama and his organization played unsubstantial parts in the Afghan Jihad. At the time no one knew they name or purpose, which hadn't been developed. Osama was in Afghanistan at the time though, countless books and western journalists have attested to his presence there. Your claim that he was in Pakistan during the whole war is nonsense, therefore I won't bother expecting you to display a source. Your other claim that he was under the Pakistani establishment's protection is even more laughable. Ironically, your own words regarding Pakistanis being brainwashed by hate are coming to mind. If some Pakistanis host unreasoning hate for India, they seem to have mirror versions of themselves in you.
I am astounded that you, while quoting western source, are so ignorant.

Read Unholy Wars by a western journalist!

Now as far as the wars we have had with Pakistan, surely you won. In dreams?

1965, 1971 and Kargil, right?

Siachen to add.

Remember Quaid Post? It is still yours, right? Why is it called Bana Post?
 

Kasrkin

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For us Kashmir is a sovereign part of India and anything you do there will be responded to in full measure. Too bad if you don't get it still after 1965 and 1999.
With that logic, we could claim that the West Bank and Jerusalem is a sovereign part of Pakistan for all that matters. Also, I won’t be addressing rants about 65 and 99, if you don’t mind.

About 1971, was Indian support to the rebels the only issue! Not the massive genocide and rapes by the PA? Didn't you have a massive internal problem in your Muslim and Hindu populations of East Pakistan (to use your terminology)? Doesn't that make any other issues seem so minor in comparison?
Actually, the brutal crackdown, or so called ‘genocide’, was only instigated after the rebellion supported by India was apparent. India had been training Mukti Bahini terrorists for a while, and was able to pump train loads of them into East Pakistan to drive the civil war. It is a matter of pride for some Indian politicians that ‘India broke up Pakistan’. Furthermore, if your claim of Pakistani mistreatment of Bengalis is a justification for India meddling in and invading sovereign Pakistani territory, then the same can apply to your mistreatment of the population in the Disputed Territory of Kashmir, with much more credibility.

Come to think of it, once they had decided to be no longer a part of Pakistan, what right did you have to forcibly hold on to a population bigger than yourself that shared nothing except religion (which you also share with the Somalians).
A very weak argument. The exact same applies to India’s illegal annexation of Kashmir. East Pakistan was sovereign Pakistani territory, therefore as per international law, it is not for India or anyone to judge what country East Pakistanis want, let alone to interfere militarily. I’m surprised that you haven’t spotted the hypocritical contradictions in your line of arguments against Pakistan.

This would be my answer to all those seeking to lecture me about Baluchistan. I'm aware of the issues there, more than most here. However that should be of no concern to India, as per international protocol. Indian energies would be better focused in helping extend to Kashmiris living in Disputed Territory their right of self-determination.

I suggest you focus more on the contents of the post rather than labelling the person you are replying to. It makes difficult to argue with you. May be you can do with taking things a bit impersonally.
I understand that it your job to moderate this board. However I must point out that I was referring to contention, and not the person, i.e. your argument is naïve.

Not an apt analogy. Here it is more like a driver threatening to crash his car into you or bombing your car.
You continue to wish to see Pakistan as a jealous rival and adversary, instead of a potential partner. There is the difference in our analogies.

Kashmir is an issue because Pakistan is not able to get over it. There is no justification for Pakistan still insisting on Kashmir when there are two more countries in the subcontinent having the same number of Muslims. Heck even Iran and Afghanistan have Muslims, why don't you claim their lands?
Pakistan does not claim Kashmir to be its own. Pakistan considers it, and labels it, Disputed Territory. As does the rest of the world. If Kashmiris would prefer to be part of Pakistan as opposed to India, then that is their prerogative. So yours was a straw-man argument.

Now you may want to mix disputed/sovereign/self-determination as per your convenience and it impresses no one. We have seen your track record in honoring self determination in 1971 and repeatedly in Balochistan.
Same can be said of India’s track record in terms of religious and ethnic minorities, however I don’t wish to rant. The issue here is Kashmir, and the fact that it is internationally recognized Disputed Territory has no bearing on Baluchistan or East Pakistan.

Thanks.
 

Ray

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Kerskin,

Have you ever wondered that while you claim Independence one day before us, you are still floundering?

You claim that you are an Islamic state i.e. one religion. We don't have that luxury....and yet, you are floudering!

You require US and China to bolster your military and you require US money, IMF, WB to bolster your economy.

We have shaken the shackled of the IMF and WB and are making indigenous weapons systems with our own designs.

You were nearly declared a rogue state and a failed state. We were never in that category.

You are wracked by the Red Mosques, Pakistani Taliban, SWAT, NWFP, Balochistan etc. And they are all Moslems. I am told Moslems don't fight Moslems.

You bomb the Shias. You declare the Ahmediyas as kaffirs.

So, what's up?

How is it that people with the same faith are fighting themselves.

We have problems too. But that is natural. We are multi religious, multi cultural and so on.

You are a miniscule in area to India. If we have less problems than you, so should you. And sad that you cannot have a good equation with your co- religionist - a luxury we do not possess!

Any answer?

You could not have East Pakistan within your folds. Don't blame India. Much that you have tried, Kashmir still remains India and Northern Areas of Pakistan is on the boil!
 

Kasrkin

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Ray if that rant against Pakistan made you feel better then I don't mind, go right ahead. I won't be sinking to your level and raising issues in India in the hopes of increasing my credibility. I wish to have a straight, focused and factual discussion with the cultured members here. If that is too much to ask, I won't be here for long. But I won't rant or address rants. Thanks.
 

Ray

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Kerskin,

Could you respond to my posts or is it too embarrassing for you?
 

Ray

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Ray if that rant against Pakistan made you feel better then I don't mind, go right ahead. I won't be sinking to your level and raising issues in India in the hopes of increasing my credibility. I wish to have a straight, focused and factual discussion with the cultured members here. If that is too much to ask, I won't be here for long. But I won't rant or address rants. Thanks.

My friend, they are not RANTS. They are FACTS with links.


Totally focussed and addressing issues you have raised.

One on One!

The fact that you cannot answer the issues indicates the quicksand you stand your debating points on!


I have quoted Pakistan links.

And yet, you call them rants!

Pakistanis rant?
 

tharikiran

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"Actually, the brutal crackdown, or so called ‘genocide’, was only instigated after the rebellion supported by India was apparent."

The above statement says it all. Thanks mate. ;)
You just justified genocide.
 

Ray

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Waiting for your response Kerskin!

Gauntlets off ;)

No let us keep it civil with links! ;)
 

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