Pakistan erased an entire International New York Times cover story

[bennedose]

there is no better alternative than these institutions which are awed by friends and foes.

Never was a truer word said by a Pakistani. The ISI and Pakistani army are awed (in fact overawed) by their Taliban friends and their foes the Indian armed forces. That is why they don't put up a fight and send proxies to fight civilians. Only Pakis hold the ISI in awe.

 

[Blackwater]

No, Bandar ke haath nariyal. Ofcourse the bandar would be the every tom, dick and harry who calls himself an expert on Pakistani affairs and the bafoons who buy these lies.

u said the truth about urself,u need to study pakistan more

 

[Neo]

Well it's not your mouth talking, please don't mind if I ignore your lose farts.

 

[sayareakd]

@Neo

Abbottabad Commission report is made by kafir hindu and jew Zionist ,neo reject this report,

kyo neo phaaji me ki jooth bolya

oh forget it was banned in Pakistan so how he could have read it...........

 

[Blackwater]

Well it's not your mouth talking, please don't mind if I ignore your lose farts.

i dont mind as long as it pinch hard where ur fart originates, i feel it pinches hard from ur statements

 

[Blackwater]

oh forget it was banned in Pakistan so how he could have read it...........

he is illegal migrant either living in Belgium or Holland, typical paki koi pakaa thikana nahi

 

[Ray]

he is illegal migrant either living in Belgium or Holland, typical paki koi pakaa thikana nahi

He is not an illegal immigrant.

He works there.

The illegals may have no address and on the move, but Neo is living legally and that is for sure!

 

[Neo]

he is illegal migrant either living in Belgium or Holland, typical paki koi pakaa thikana nahi

.
It must feel great to sit behind your pc and troll and break all forum rules because your management allows and encourages it!
If you have balls then come and debate me on a neutral terrain with a respectable amount of moderation.

You guys are pathetic!

 

[Blackwater]

He is not an illegal immigrant.

He works there.

The illegals may have no address and on the move, but Neo is living legally and that is for sure!

my post was sarcastic in nature , i was not sure if he lives in Holland or Belgium,

 

[Ray]

my post was sarcastic in nature , i was not sure if he lives in Holland or Belgium,

OK.

I have got it!

 

[thethinker]

ISI is a powerful, well trusted and respected institution within Pakistan. For millions of Pakistanis including me she's almost sacred. Why would we publish western propaganda in the first place? Hasn't CIA and Pentagon done enough damage already?

Maybe sacred to you and other Pakistanis living outside of Pakistan?

www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/world/asia/isi-in-pakistan-faces-court-cases.html

" Long unchallenged, Pakistan's top spy agency faces a flurry of court actions that subject its darkest operations to unusual scrutiny, amid growing calls for new restrictions on its largely untrammeled powers.

The cases go to the heart of the powers that have given the ISI such an ominous reputation among Pakistanis: its ability to detain civilians at will, and its freedom to meddle in electoral politics. They come at the end of a difficult 12 months for the spy service, which has faced sharp criticism over the killing of Osama bin Laden by American commandos inside Pakistan and, in recent weeks, its role in a murky political scandal that stoked rumors of a military coup. "

 

[thethinker]

Well trusted and respected indeed. So well that a bill for curtailing ISI activities is discussed.


Taming the ISI

Taming the ISI

Senator Farhatullah Babar (PPP) has drafted a bill to bring the ISI under civilian control and stop it from manufacturing public opinion, formulating foreign policy and manipulating politics like "a state within a state". The proposed bill also aims to empower the ISI to deal with terrorism, separatism and other anti-state activities in a legally effective manner.

The bill has not yet been tabled in the Senate. But even if it is put up as a private member's bill at some stage, it is highly unlikely that it will go any further. The PPP leadership is so besieged by the courts and opposition at the moment that it would be foolish to step on the toes of the powerful military and provoke it to heave it out of office.

The ISI's reputation as a state within a state is well established. It became an autonomous and powerful arm of the Gen Zia state during the Afghan Jihad against the Soviets in the1980s when its DG was upgraded from a Brigadier to a Major General and organized the multi-billion dollar arms and funds pipeline from the USA and Saudi Arabia. Subsequently, after the restoration of democracy in 1988, DG-ISI Gen Hameed Gul helped form the Islami Jamhoori Ittehad to try and stop Benazir Bhutto's PPP from sweeping into power and, failing that, later conspired to destabilize and topple her government through various strategies, including Operation Midnight Jackals. The ISI under General Asad Durrani helped bring Nawaz Sharif to power in 1990, courtesy Mehrangate, and under General Javed Ashraf Qazi nudged him out of office in 1993. In 1999, two pro-ISI generals, Mohammad Aziz, CGS, and Mahmood Ahmed, Corps Commander Pindi, the former an ex-ISI man and the latter a future DG, carried out a coup against Nawaz Sharif, installed General Pervez Musharraf in office and interviewed and hand picked members of his new cabinet. In due course, the elevation of Gen Ashfaq Kayani to DG-ISI and then army chief, an unprecedented act, opened the route for a complete merger of the ISI with GHQ, with officers routinely to-ing and fro-ing from one headquarter to the other. Henceforth, the right of the prime minister to nominate the DG-ISI was negated by the right of the army chief to nominate his own man to such a sensitive job. General Ahmad Shuja Pasha (DG-ISI 2009-2012) was nominated by Gen Kayani, promoted by him to the rank of Lt General and given an extension in tenure.

To be sure, the civilians have tried and failed to seize control of, or reform, the ISI. Benazir Bhutto replaced Gen Gul with Gen (retd) Kallu. But the ISI rank and file rendered him ineffective. Nawaz Sharif sent DG-ISI Gen Asad Durrani back to GHQ, handpicking Gen Javed Nasir as DG-ISI over the head of COAS Gen Asif Nawaz. But Mr Sharif didn't stay long enough in office to make the change stick institutionally. When he returned to power in 1999, he handpicked General Musharraf as the army chief and Gen Ziauddin Butt as DG-ISI. But General Musharraf made Gen Butt ineffective by packing the ISI with his loyalists. When Asif Zardari set up the PPP government in 2008, he tried to seize control of the internal political wing of the ISI by proposing its command and control in the interior ministry. But GHQ and ISI manipulated the media and opposition to thwart his move. Under Gen Pasha, the ISI became larger than life, at home and abroad, formulating foreign policy, disobeying, embarrassing and even destabilising the Zardari government on many occasions, until the prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gillani, a self-avowed benefactor of the ISI and GHQ, was provoked to bitterly decry the existence of a "state within a state".

Therefore, the motive behind the proposed bill - that there can be no state within the state in a democracy - is justified. Indeed, there is a civilian consensus on the issue, Nawaz Sharif, a Punjabi who has been stung twice, being the most ardent advocate of civilian supremacy over the Punjabi-dominated military. But the PPP is too weak and discredited to bring the military to heel. More significantly, the media and judiciary have also made common cause with the military against the discredited politicians whose popularity ratings in the polls are far below theirs.

The proposed bill is, however, relevant in other ways too. It would enable the ISI to get legal cover to detain and act against terrorists and other anti-state elements without running foul of the courts and constitution by making people "disappear" - an Ombudsman and bipartisan parliamentary policy-making and review committee is built into the bill. This would truly strengthen the ISI to defend the national interest as defined by elected and accountable civilians. But, given the electoral probability that Pakistan is likely to be ruled by weak and bumbling civil-coalition governments in the face of a powerful military, the ISI is fated to remain a state within a state in the foreseeable future.

 

[Neo]

Maybe sacred to you and other Pakistanis living outside of Pakistan?

www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/world/asia/isi-in-pakistan-faces-court-cases.html

" Long unchallenged, Pakistan's top spy agency faces a flurry of court actions that subject its darkest operations to unusual scrutiny, amid growing calls for new restrictions on its largely untrammeled powers.

The cases go to the heart of the powers that have given the ISI such an ominous reputation among Pakistanis: its ability to detain civilians at will, and its freedom to meddle in electoral politics. They come at the end of a difficult 12 months for the spy service, which has faced sharp criticism over the killing of Osama bin Laden by American commandos inside Pakistan and, in recent weeks, its role in a murky political scandal that stoked rumors of a military coup. "

Nawaz dislikes PA and ISI and will do anything to hurt their image. He will ecen sell out these institutions to highest bidder.
If you want to see how we respect our Army, come to Pakistan.

 

[Neo]

Well trusted and respected indeed. So well that a bill for curtailing ISI activities is discussed.


Taming the ISI

Taming the ISI

Senator Farhatullah Babar (PPP) has drafted a bill to bring the ISI under civilian control and stop it from manufacturing public opinion, formulating foreign policy and manipulating politics like "a state within a state". The proposed bill also aims to empower the ISI to deal with terrorism, separatism and other anti-state activities in a legally effective manner.

The bill has not yet been tabled in the Senate. But even if it is put up as a private member's bill at some stage, it is highly unlikely that it will go any further. The PPP leadership is so besieged by the courts and opposition at the moment that it would be foolish to step on the toes of the powerful military and provoke it to heave it out of office.

The ISI's reputation as a state within a state is well established. It became an autonomous and powerful arm of the Gen Zia state during the Afghan Jihad against the Soviets in the1980s when its DG was upgraded from a Brigadier to a Major General and organized the multi-billion dollar arms and funds pipeline from the USA and Saudi Arabia. Subsequently, after the restoration of democracy in 1988, DG-ISI Gen Hameed Gul helped form the Islami Jamhoori Ittehad to try and stop Benazir Bhutto's PPP from sweeping into power and, failing that, later conspired to destabilize and topple her government through various strategies, including Operation Midnight Jackals. The ISI under General Asad Durrani helped bring Nawaz Sharif to power in 1990, courtesy Mehrangate, and under General Javed Ashraf Qazi nudged him out of office in 1993. In 1999, two pro-ISI generals, Mohammad Aziz, CGS, and Mahmood Ahmed, Corps Commander Pindi, the former an ex-ISI man and the latter a future DG, carried out a coup against Nawaz Sharif, installed General Pervez Musharraf in office and interviewed and hand picked members of his new cabinet. In due course, the elevation of Gen Ashfaq Kayani to DG-ISI and then army chief, an unprecedented act, opened the route for a complete merger of the ISI with GHQ, with officers routinely to-ing and fro-ing from one headquarter to the other. Henceforth, the right of the prime minister to nominate the DG-ISI was negated by the right of the army chief to nominate his own man to such a sensitive job. General Ahmad Shuja Pasha (DG-ISI 2009-2012) was nominated by Gen Kayani, promoted by him to the rank of Lt General and given an extension in tenure.

To be sure, the civilians have tried and failed to seize control of, or reform, the ISI. Benazir Bhutto replaced Gen Gul with Gen (retd) Kallu. But the ISI rank and file rendered him ineffective. Nawaz Sharif sent DG-ISI Gen Asad Durrani back to GHQ, handpicking Gen Javed Nasir as DG-ISI over the head of COAS Gen Asif Nawaz. But Mr Sharif didn't stay long enough in office to make the change stick institutionally. When he returned to power in 1999, he handpicked General Musharraf as the army chief and Gen Ziauddin Butt as DG-ISI. But General Musharraf made Gen Butt ineffective by packing the ISI with his loyalists. When Asif Zardari set up the PPP government in 2008, he tried to seize control of the internal political wing of the ISI by proposing its command and control in the interior ministry. But GHQ and ISI manipulated the media and opposition to thwart his move. Under Gen Pasha, the ISI became larger than life, at home and abroad, formulating foreign policy, disobeying, embarrassing and even destabilising the Zardari government on many occasions, until the prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gillani, a self-avowed benefactor of the ISI and GHQ, was provoked to bitterly decry the existence of a "state within a state".

Therefore, the motive behind the proposed bill - that there can be no state within the state in a democracy - is justified. Indeed, there is a civilian consensus on the issue, Nawaz Sharif, a Punjabi who has been stung twice, being the most ardent advocate of civilian supremacy over the Punjabi-dominated military. But the PPP is too weak and discredited to bring the military to heel. More significantly, the media and judiciary have also made common cause with the military against the discredited politicians whose popularity ratings in the polls are far below theirs.

The proposed bill is, however, relevant in other ways too. It would enable the ISI to get legal cover to detain and act against terrorists and other anti-state elements without running foul of the courts and constitution by making people "disappear" - an Ombudsman and bipartisan parliamentary policy-making and review committee is built into the bill. This would truly strengthen the ISI to defend the national interest as defined by elected and accountable civilians. But, given the electoral probability that Pakistan is likely to be ruled by weak and bumbling civil-coalition governments in the face of a powerful military, the ISI is fated to remain a state within a state in the foreseeable future.

Who is PPP to judge, lol
Same PPP who has a CM in Sindh heading all the ministeries eventhough 10 months have passed since elections?
Or same PPP which bailed out the loss making domestic airline owned by Zardari's sister?
The same PPP which is snatching jobs from everyone in Karachi to give them to Sindhis?
Or same PPP that is fuelling communal riots between different communities in Karachi?
Same PPP which spent 500 million rupees on Billo's image building festival while hundreds were dying in Tharparker?

What a joke!

 

[Bhadra]

PA and ISI are inseperably connected and respected in my country. They will continue to serve and defend us against our enemies.
When it comes to defence, there is no better alternative than these institutions which are awed by friends and foes.

I went through your utterings...

Do not use your Paki Army lingo in the forum.... It should be civilised... do you know what it means ??


Those institutions which you are so proud of, were hopeless in the past and shall continue to betray Paki masses in future too ...

ISI is the cause of everyday seven blasts in Pakistan....
Insurgencies in Baluchistan, FATA and NWFP.. in Punjab and Sindh... what more... ??

Pakistan Army lost four wars and were witness to biggest historical surrender in human history...

You are only experts in " Nasal Badal Denge " .. types of acts....

let me see your ISI winning a battle against < Khad, RAW, Mosad, KGB and CIA... fat gai na... and many others you do not know the name of...

Like my name...

 

[Neo]

You are entitled to share your opinion and so am I.

You like bashing and maligning my country and army so be it.

I speak for millions when I say I support my army and ISI and that is all I care about.

 

[Bhadra]

Who is PPP to judge, lol
Same PPP who has a CM in Sindh heading all the ministeries eventhough 10 months have passed since elections?
Or same PPP which bailed out the loss making domestic airline owned by Zardari's sister?
The same PPP which is snatching jobs from everyone in Karachi to give them to Sindhis?
Or same PPP that is fuelling communal riots between different communities in Karachi?
Same PPP which spent 500 million rupees on Billo's image building festival while hundreds were dying in Tharparker?

What a joke!

With this rate you Pakjabies are soon going to call Sindhies as Hindus.... and PPP as a Hindu Party.

the same thing you did with Bengalies.... and Mukti Bahani... and Seikh Mujib-ur- Rahaman

I would not mind that ... may be another trip to Pakistan....

Why are you folks so self destructive ??

 

[thethinker]

Nawaz dislikes PA and ISI and will do anything to hurt their image. He will ecen sell out these institutions to highest bidder.
If you want to see how we respect our Army, come to Pakistan.

Guess your media also dislikes PA and ISI and will do anything to hurt their image?

Pak Army and Pak nationalism – The Express Tribune

To create internal unity, states may use the threat of an external enemy or even create an external enemy if it is not present. An ideology may also be created to cement the otherwise clashing identities inside the state. Ideologies are usually coercive unless subjected to a paradoxical experiment: encouragement of diversity to create stakes for all identities in the preservation of the state.

The Pakistan Army today is repository of Pakistani nationalism. It dominates all the institutions of the state and has taken longer to effect an internal reconsideration of its India-centred nationalism than the civilian political elite. The textbook is on its side and not on the side of the intellectually more supple political leadership.

 

[Pratap]

With this rate you Pakjabies are soon going to call Sindhies as Hindus.... and PPP as a Hindu Party.

the same thing you did with Bengalies.... and Mukti Bahani... and Seikh Mujib-ur- Rahaman

I would not mind that ... may be another trip to Pakistan....

Why are you folks so self destructive ??

If you think that Pak is going to break, it is not correct. The reason why Bangladesh was formed was because it was 3000 KM away from Pakistan and was separated by an adversary. Punjabi dominance is too hard to be broken and once Islamic symbols are invoked, entire Pakistan becomes one.

 

[thethinker]

As far as the Pak poster having the audacity to say "If you want to see how we respect our Army, come to Pakistan. ", might I suggest why doesn't he himself go back to Pakistan from Holland and live there if the glorious Pak army and ISI keeps everyone there safe and life is a bed or roses in Pak where everyone respects and trusts these "sacred military institutions".