Pakistan Considering Russian, French Aircraft To Replace 190 Fighter Planes

warrior monk

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Even if it is 90,000 Cr that will be paid out over 10 years not in one lump some and 50% will be invested back into India under offsets.

Again, the military (including the IAF) is literally returning billions every year in unspent funds so no, I don't see the problem.
For the Rafale deal alone, the initial payment is estimated at Rs. 15,000 crore, which is almost half of what has been provided in the Air Force’s latest acquisition budget. What about others?? . The question is can we buy large number of Rafales with such acquisition budget ??
 

garg_bharat

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@abingdonboy, take your frustrations to A K Antony who sat on Rafale for three years.

This government is not responsible for what happened in MMRCA selection or award of contract. This should be absolutely clear.

The government has been very explicit about what it wants. There is no confusion.

The confusion is only in minds of some people in IAF.

If the deal was so clean as you claim, what difficulty Antony was facing in concluding it??

This contract seems like a trap for the current govt. It is a veritable quicksand.
 

Bornubus

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Zhuk AESA is not very mature.
This is no way a huge advantage of Rafale over Mig 35,considering the price difference,besides when we inducted MKI with N-011M BARS,it wasn't a mature radar either.

That said, MiG-35 never qualified for MMRCA requirements, therefore could not make the shortlist.
It was Rafale which was rejected during the evaluation itself not Mig 35,we all know how Defense deals are done in India.with a 9 billion deal its a win win for Middlemen,politicians and Bureaucrats.

http://www.stratpost.com/rafale-ejection-from-mmrca-race-confirmed

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2011/05/indian-politician-says-sonia-gandhi-has.html

Over F-16? Sure.
Over MKI? Nope.
Let the SPECS speaks for themselves.

Official Specs says Zhuk-ME on board Mig-29K & Mig-29SMT upgrade has a detection range of 120km for a 5m2 target. Using the Radar-Range-RCS equation which states that the detection range varies with the fourth root of the RCS((New RCS/Old RCS)^0.25 * Radar Range for Old RCS), it becomes possible to calculate the range of the radar for different RCS values.
For 20m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 170km
For 15m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 158km
For 12.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 151km
For 10m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 143km
For 8.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 137km
For 3m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 106km
For 1m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 80km


Official Specs says N-011M BARS onboard Su-30MKI has a detection range of 140km against a clean MiG-29, whose unofficial RCS is 5m2. Further the Radar Manufacturer(NIIP) is offering a BARS radar with a higher power output or a higher power transmitter, if the export client is interested. The basic version which offers a detection range of 140km for clean MiG-29 has a peak power output of 4-5kw, and hence has an 1.2kw average power output. NIIP is offering as high as 5kw average power output, 4 times the power output of the basic version, if the export customer wishes for it. This lead to some speculations that some N-011M BARS radar variants have a high power output, and hence a higher range than the 140km given above. The precise range for this version is not known. Whether this radar is in-service with the Indian Air force is also not known. And even if it is with the IAF, how many of these high powered N-011M BARS radar equipped Su-30MKI there are is also impossible to determine. Hence under these circumstances, only confirmed news and data can be taken into account.
140km detection range for 5m2 target. Hence:
For 8.5m2, BARS detection range is 160km
For 3m2, BARS detection range is 123km
For 1.5m2, BARS detection range is 104km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 94km


An internet blog of some individual, posted a pic claiming to be the official brochure from CETC. It claims that the KLJ-7 onboard JF-17 has a detection range of 105km for a 5m2 target. However, PAF isn't too fond of this radar eventhough it has the same range as the APG-68(V)9 on F-16block52 & RDY-2 on Mirage-2000-5/-9(both radar's range according to official specs), & more range than RC-400 radar. Even in its most powerful form(meaning the version with the largest antenna, which the JF-17 cannot house due to its relatively small nose), the RC400 has 20% less range than the RDY-2 radar. RC-400 is the radar which the PAF is planning to equip their second block of JF-17 according to current reports. The APG-68(V)9 has a bigger antenna(bigger radar-dish/bigger antenna gives more range) than the KLJ-7, plus it is manufactured by Northrop Grumman, a more mature and advanced Military-Industrial complex than CETC by a large margin. And APG-68(V)9 & APG-68(V)10 are THE best & latest mechanically scanned array type radars on F-16s(Both APG-68(V)9 & APG-68(V)10 have the same range[Reference 17]). Like the APG-68(V)9 & APG-68(V)10, KLJ-7 is also a mechanically scanned array type radar. So the claim that the KLJ-7 has the same range as APG-68(V)9 seems more unlikely. Also is the fact that the PAF preferred a far lesser ranged RC-400 over the KLJ-7 radar. All this is fueling speculation that KLJ-7's true specs is lower than publicized by the closed-to-scrutiny Chinese Defence Establishments. This speculation turned out to be true when Janes Defence Weekly published that the Radar Range of KLJ-7 is actually 75km for a 3m2 Target.[Reference/Source 8]
KLJ-7 has a 75km detection range for 3m2 Target. Hence:
For 20m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 121km
For 15m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 112km
For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 107km
For 10m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 101km
For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 97km
For 5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 85km
For 1m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 57km

APG-68(V)9 has a 105km detection range for 5m2 Target. Hence:
For 20m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 149km
For 15m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 138km
For 12.5m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 132km
For 10m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 125km
For 8.5m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 120km
For 3m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 92km
For 1m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 70km



RCS figures are confidential. However unofficially there are some figures available on the internet. They are:
Clean(meaning payload/ammunition not loaded) F-16 after Block 30, which includes block 52 - 1.2m2
Clean Mig-29B & Mig-29SMT - 5m2
Clean Su-30MKI - 10m2 to 15m2

JF-17 without RAM, its RCS would be more than a Clean F-16 block 52 which has RAM & is planform. F-16 block25 & the previous variants, which are planform in construction but without RAM, were said to have an RCS of 3m2-5m2, when clean. JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2.[Reference 1]

Su-30MKI's RCS when carrying full 8000kgs AG load is said to be 20m2.[Reference 2]

Lets take Su-30MKI's clean RCS as 11.5m2, higher than a standard Su-27, due to canards & the extra seat.

Mig-29K's RCS is officially confirmed to be 4-5 times less than a old Mig-29, due to composites & RAM. So taking an average value between 4 & 5 = 4.5. When the unofficial RCS of 5 is divided by 4.5 we get an RCS of 1.11. "Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."[Reference 3]

It's well known that RCS increases with external payload. JF-17 cannot carry larger payloads. Its load carrying capacity is only 7900lbs or less than 3600kgs. This compared to Su-30MKIs 8000kgs, Mig-29K's 5500kgs, & F-16's 7500kgs. So only a nominal increase of 2.5m2 RCS is taken into consideration for the JF-17. Eventhough Mig-29K carries less payload than a F-16 or Su-30, a RCS increase more than F-16's is considered for calculations, in order to get a uniform RCS. This is done purely for the ease of comparison, but as a result of this the MiG-29K's RCS figure is much more than what it would be been. In the end:

Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29SMT as 8.5m2, 3.5m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29K as 5m2, 3.9m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded F-16 Block 52 as 5m2, 3.8m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded JF-17 as 5m2, 2.5m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Su-30MKI as 15m2, 3.5m2 more.

...............................................................................................................................................................


With these RCS values and the above radar ranges, you can now see which fighters will be detecting their opponent fighters first... and first tracking which almost linearly follows detection.

Mig-29K will detect:
Su-30MKI at 158km
Mig-29SMT at 137km
F-16 Block 52 at 120km
JF-17 at 120km

F-16 Block 52 will detect:
Su-30MKI at 138km
Mig-29SMT at 120km
JF-17 at 105km
Mig-29K at 105km

Su-30MKI will detect:
Mig-29SMT at 160km
F-16 Block 52 at 140km
JF-17 at 140km
Mig-29K at 140km

Mig-29SMT will detect:
Su-30MKI at 158km
F-16 Block 52 at 120km
JF-17 at 120km
Mig-29K at 120km

JF-17 will detect:
Su-30MKI at 112km
Mig-29SMT at 97km
F-16 Block52 at 85km
Mig-29K at 85kmMig-29K comes out as the clear winner. If provided with a long range BVR weapon which could match its powerful radar, Mig-29K navalised version will come out as the BVR winner.
Su-30MKI follows the Mig-29K Naval Fulcrum.
Mig-29SMT & F-16 Block-52 are tied at third, followed by the JF-17.
 

garg_bharat

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Rafale salesmen are fighting a very public war on internet on specs, and challenging government decisions in public rather than discuss these issues internally.

Public neither understands nor able to verify what is said on these internet forums.

It is hard to tell who is telling the truth and who is a paid writer.

Emotions are running high, as we have just seen. It is quite a funny situation.
 

garg_bharat

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The biggest difficulty is that an IAF officer makes a comment and gets away with it. The poor minister cannot even respond, first due to oath of secrecy, and second due to prudence.

Delays in arms deal is not something new to India. It has been happening since long, but never such rebellions were seen. The govt is correct to suspect something seriously wrong.
 

Bornubus

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  1. One funny claim Rafale fanboys make that it comes with fancy force multiplier be it EW suite,targeting POD etc thus it's superior to Russia.But let me remind you that when we bought MKI it also had so called "inferior" Russian components but the MKI in service today have western,Indian and Israeli components with ELTA jamming POD like USAF F 18 of Aggressor Squadron thus making it a unique Aircraft.
We can modify Russian jets at will,including ASTRA and BRAHMOS again a unique modification of integrating a Heavy cruise Missile with a jet.

Rafale offer us nothing considerable against Mig 35 with half the price,on top of it France is a US lackey,if someone catching my drift.
 
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Gessler

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This is no way a huge advantage of Rafale over Mig 35,considering the price difference,besides when we inducted MKI with N-011M BARS,it wasn't a mature radar either.
I cannot comment on how huge or small the advantage is, apparently it was enough for Rafale & Typhoon's projected AESA specs for RBE-2AA and CAESAR to be superior enough for these plans to be considered for shortlisting. And note that Thales was hoping for a 50% increase in performance/detection ranges over the PESA version...but after testing was completed, upto a 100% increase was achieved. This was confirmed by people who previously worked for Dassault and also those who are currently associated with AdlA.

When we took the decision for buying MKI, we had very little choices, and little finances available. Besides Bars wasn't a totally new/immature design even at that point. It was built on experience with the N-007 Zaslon PESA which shared a similar architecture. But that's irrelevant to the argument.

It was Rafale which was rejected during the evaluation itself not Mig 35
Was it? Or was it also the victim of the kind of misinformation and corporate propaganda which also said that Eurofighter was the frontrunner for MMRCA?

http://www.brahmand.com/news/Eurofighter-frontrunner-for-MMRCA-deal-BAE-official/7097/1/10.html

Fact of the matter was that any decision/rumor of a decision taken before the apparent shortlisting of Rafale & EFT on a performance-based analysis after studying over 600 points, producing easily over 1,000 pages of techical data and evaluation reports on EACH fighter...was either a pure figment of imagination, OR driven by political decisions.

IAF/MoD had formulated the perfect evaluation for all the competitors and the rejected ones never officially went on record saying that any wrong-doing had happened.

After technical evaluation was complete (with both Rafale & EFT meeting IAF-specified requirements), it was the turn of the economic bidding process, where Rafale was declared L1, lowest bidder.

Even though the MMRCA procedure itself did not culminate in contract signature then & there, we are still proceeding ahead with the plane which cleared all technical/economic parameters as originally needed. IF for example, EFT had won MMRCA procedure but then if we had scrapped the tender and went with Rafale instead in a Govt-to-Govt deal, there would be any logical grounds to base an accusation of corruption or any politically or economically-driven wrongdoing wrt to national security! There was neither!

Now WHY did we even go for a G2G deal? I do not know for sure : but by now it must be clear to even the lowest-aware individual that the Rafale we're negotiating for is not the same one on who's technical parameters MMRCA was won : it is a much better version with improved engines, possibility of GaN application in electronics, and only Parrikar, MoD, IAF and the French know what else is being negotiated!

Are we stopping the deal at just a "Buy Rafale, leave" initiative? NO. We are definitely negotiating to get a lot more out of the deal than that. The local production agencies which originally stood to benefit from MMRCA (like HAL), have now changed. MoD is clearly looking to incubate a private-sector aviation industry in India and they want to use this deal as a stepping stone toward that goal.

Most of these ideas may have been clearly unthinkable when MMRCA was first floated in 2007 period. It is most likely that MMRCA was scrapped on these lines. Basically, the only thing that stayed the same was the aircraft we're gonna buy....pretty much every other aspect of the deal has changed. The good thing is, it has changed for the better, but only if you look at it the right way.

we all know how Defense deals are done in India.with a 9 billion deal its a win win for Middlemen,politicians and Bureaucrats.
Well, if you want to get into a mud-slinging match, accusing corruption in everything, go right ahead. I believe a common citizen of India has all the rights & liberties needed to expose a civil wrongdoing at any level. If you have sufficient evidence, I would actually advise that you go to Court with this.

Let the SPECS speaks for themselves.
All of the BARS specs on the net (including Vayu, APA etc.) are old Mk.1 and some Mk.2 data. Even most of which is outdated.

If at all you consider the MiG-29 as a better air-to-air platform than MKI, maybe you should question why in god's name did IAF, RusAF, PLAAF take the decision to base their respective air-superiority fleets around the Flanker design?

In the end, it doesn't change the fact that IAF is operating BOTH the MKI and the 29UPG, while IN has the 29K. Besides, the Super-MKI upgrade will bring a MIRES-family AESA radar to the MKI, which will easily make it the most powerful Flanker radar in history, even considerably ahead of the IRBIS-E.

Oh and TRISHUL reports that leading edge-mounted L-band AESA arrays are also a possibility for the Super-MKI upgrade.
 

garg_bharat

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@Gessler, (the profile says age 19 years) knows everything about Rafale, MKI, contract inside out.

This is the beauty of this forum and discussion.

Reality is more like only a few people know and understand what has happened, and it is not in public domain.

A lot of arguments can be presented without any verification, to malign one side or the other. Does it help?

I am amazed at reams written on this forum and similar, where none of the associated actually have any direct exposure or experience and only regurgitating what some blogger has written somewhere. So if a person has vested interest and runs a blog, that is all over the place.
 
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garg_bharat

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What IAF has done in its selection procedure is not public knowledge. How can you discuss when you do not know??

This matter is for government to decide, not by some bloggers here.
 

Gessler

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@Gessler, (the profile says age 19 years) knows everything about Rafale, MKI, contract inside out.

This is the beauty of this forum and discussion.
Probably the 2nd time this week you have made a comment regarding my age, this is the same as last time.

The beauty is that while 19-year olds have felt the responsibility to share & expand the knowledge of others and oneself through discussion and exchange of data, we have people like you (who claim to be my father's age), not only providing ZERO knowledge of the matter for anyone who wishes to learn, but only serve to dole out statements like "you don't know anything, you don't know anything either, no one knows anything, we shouldn't even be discussing this, nothing's gonna happen, we're all gonna die".

Maybe you do not know, but people including civilians, newbies, enthusiasts, professionals, ex-servicemen meet on forums like these for the sole purpose of exchanging information. I have been in defence forums for over 4 years (including DFI, IDF, Pak DF, Keypublishing Aviation, CDF, SinoDefence etc. besides being a regular commentator at various DISQUS and Blogger sites) and I should know.

Basically, if you neither feel the need for any of us to be discussing anything, nor have the intention or capacity to share any information from your side, one has to wonder what the heck you're doing here??

I suppose if all you wanted to do was say "congrats" after we test a missile, or "good job" after a defence deal or project was concluded, I would assume you would be happy in message boards that accompany almost every Times of India online article, Youtube videos, or social media like Facebook or Twitter.

@abingdonboy This is what I call a proper defeatist. And I have no doubt that he will have the nerve to consider himself a "realist".
 

garg_bharat

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@Gessler, I am extremely concerned about you. If you are on defence boards at 15 years of age (not even completed class X), then you are hiding something, probably your age and identity both.

The issue being discussed is very serious. India has very strict rules about information leakage. Since you claim to be a child, it is difficult to explain.
 

garg_bharat

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The issue is not my knowledge, the issue is knowledge of so called experts here, and their foreign cheerleaders.

Evaluating a fighter aircraft is not a child's job. And military information is rarely in public domain.
 

abingdonboy

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For the Rafale deal alone, the initial payment is estimated at Rs. 15,000 crore, which is almost half of what has been provided in the Air Force’s latest acquisition budget. What about others?? . The question is can we buy large number of Rafales with such acquisition budget ??
The DM has stated the money is there for the Rafale in the next FY.

This government is not responsible for what happened in MMRCA selection or award of contract. This should be absolutely clear.
Did I say they were?

The confusion is only in minds of some people in IAF.
There is no confusion in the IAF's mind, they have been VERY consistent for almost 4 years now.

If the deal was so clean as you claim, what difficulty Antony was facing in concluding it??
The MMRCA ran into contractual difficulties based largely around HAL.

This contract seems like a trap for the current govt. It is a veritable quicksand.
No one is trying to trap the current government, bloody hell.

This current deal ia 100% this govt's OWN doing. They SCRAPPED the MMRCA and pursued the 36 G-G and 90 MII deals INDEPENDANTLY to anything that had occured before.

Rafale salesmen are fighting a very public war on internet on specs, and challenging government decisions in public rather than discuss these issues internally.
Who is challenging government decsions?

The biggest difficulty is that an IAF officer makes a comment and gets away with it. The poor minister cannot even respond, first due to oath of secrecy, and second due to prudence.
Those poor ministers, the ones having cups of tea with CEOs of LM, SAAB and Boeing? Whilst the fighter pilots are strapping themselves into 40+ year old junk and risking their lives every day.

Delays in arms deal is not something new to India. It has been happening since long, but never such rebellions were seen. The govt is correct to suspect something seriously wrong.
10 years is a long time, even for India. There "rebellions" are because the GoI's indecsion is leading to a near emergency situation- delcining SQN strength and no replacement to be found.

  1. One funny claim Rafale fanboys make that it comes with fancy force multiplier be it EW suite,targeting POD etc thus it's superior to Russia.But let me remind you that when we bought MKI it also had so called "inferior" Russian components but the MKI in service today have western,Indian and Israeli components with ELTA jamming POD like USAF F 18 of Aggressor Squadron thus making it a unique Aircraft.
We can modify Russian jets at will,including ASTRA and BRAHMOS again a unique modification of integrating a Heavy cruise Missile with a jet.
The MKI cannot conduct low level strike missions, its airframe isn't certified to do so nor is the BARS radar equipped with a low level terrain avoidance mode.

Rafale offer us nothing considerable against Mig 35 with half the price,on top of it France is a US lackey,if someone catching my drift.
Please back up all of this with technical facts, not mere opnion. I have refuted the MiG-35> Rafale theory above.
 

abingdonboy

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The issue is not my knowledge, the issue is knowledge of so called experts here, and their foreign cheerleaders.

Evaluating a fighter aircraft is not a child's job. And military information is rarely in public domain.
I've got news for you- ALL MMRCA contenders were foreign so it isn't surprising they have "foreign cheerleaders".

You are quick to dismiss "internet experts" and yet it was the PROFFESIONALS who made this call ie the IAF after a thorough evaluation and the GoI (present or past) has NEVER cast doubt on their findings.
 

Gessler

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@Gessler, I am extremely concerned about you. If you are on defence boards at 15 years of age (not even completed class X), then you are hiding something, probably your age and identity both.
Lol, go home and figure out how to use a smartphone, old man.

I have no need to hide my age. What do you think this is? A dating site?

Identity? I doubt 99% people on these forums give their identity (except an alias ofcourse). You should actually head over to sites that I've mentioned and view my profiles there. Maybe even ask some of the most respected members like PARIKRAMA on Pakistan DF (@abingdonboy knows him) about me, he will tell if I'm a good one or not.

Now, if you are taking offence at the fact that I was learning about Gallium Nitride applications in radar, and Active Cancellation at an age when in your time, you were probably wondering where children come from, it is simply not my fault.

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.in/2016/02/f-35-may-not-be-vlo-to-x-band-radar-in.html

The issue being discussed is very serious. India has very strict rules about information leakage. Since you claim to be a child, it is difficult to explain.
Lol what? I didn't know political parties in India would accept a child as a member! Well, maybe the rules were changed and only you were informed.

About information leakage...if you feel that ANYTHING who's secrecy was of importance to national security was unlawfully leaked to the public here in this forum by any member, you should fulfill your role as a responsible citizen and immediately report to the authorities. I would assume you would know how to contact your local police and Cyber Crimes department.

If not, I would advise you to shut your trap and stop barking nonsense.

Anyway I have no need to prove anything about myself to you...I still don't see why people like you waste everyone's time & bandwidth by posting here, especially if they don't have anything to contribute toward the purpose of a discussion board.

Internet is not free, you know.
 

Screambowl

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with airforce's share at 23 %




with IAF Acquisition Budget for aircraft and aero engine is Rs 18866.0 Cr for 2015-16 just 36 Rafales cost 66000 Cr to 90000 Cr depends who you ask now you see the problem . The increase is not more than 15.9 % YoY factor that is .

It is better to increase intelligence agencies budget and reduce AF's budget if this continues for the next one more decade. As technology what we have today will change tomorrow. And we will lose one complete decade from utilizing it.
 

Gessler

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It is better to increase intelligence agencies budget and reduce AF's budget if this continues for the next one more decade. As technology what we have today will change tomorrow. And we will lose one complete decade from utilizing it.
Technology changes quickly, but the platforms do not. I'd say, we actually make a sound decision in choosing the Rafale, which is good for another 30 years at the least as far as implementation of new technology trends goes.

PEA Incas - GaN upgrade for the AESA radar
TRAGEDAC - Offboard sensor-fusion for passive targeting solutions (Spectra upgrade)
MELBAA - Conformal radar arrays
DEDIRA - a VLO version of Rafale. Achieved through airframe-shaping as well as much-improved Active Cancellation of incoming radar waves

And others that are still in very early planning stages.
 

Screambowl

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Technology changes quickly, but the platforms do not. I'd say, we actually make a sound decision in choosing the Rafale, which is good for another 30 years at the least as far as implementation of new technology trends goes.

PEA Incas - GaN upgrade for the AESA radar
TRAGEDAC - Offboard sensor-fusion for passive targeting solutions (Spectra upgrade)
MELBAA - Conformal radar arrays
DEDIRA - a VLO version of Rafale. Achieved through airframe-shaping as well as much-improved Active Cancellation of incoming radar waves

And others that are still in very early planning stages.

correct but the point I am making is you have to add upgradation costs everytime in 5 years if deal remains undone.

So, that means if we buy rafale now with current tech in market for EXPORT, you will pay for that not what we had previously signed with and we refrain using it and accumulate lack of experience operating and learning on these technologies when TOT is done.
 

Screambowl

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  1. One funny claim Rafale fanboys make that it comes with fancy force multiplier be it EW suite,targeting POD etc thus it's superior to Russia.But let me remind you that when we bought MKI it also had so called "inferior" Russian components but the MKI in service today have western,Indian and Israeli components with ELTA jamming POD like USAF F 18 of Aggressor Squadron thus making it a unique Aircraft.
We can modify Russian jets at will,including ASTRA and BRAHMOS again a unique modification of integrating a Heavy cruise Missile with a jet.

Rafale offer us nothing considerable against Mig 35 with half the price,on top of it France is a US lackey,if someone catching my drift.

wasn't France helping DRDO with the Kaveri with ToT, and hence they went for Rafale as 4.5 gen. also providing the naval version.

Plus greater combat radius, payload cap and TtW ratio, shorter length take off. But I do not know, if this really adds to the cost of 1 unit of rafale.
 

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