Pakistan Considering Russian, French Aircraft To Replace 190 Fighter Planes

abingdonboy

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Very informative post, but can you explain how India will able to induct > 200 Rafales ?
Confirmed for now:

36- Off the shelf from France
+90- To be made in India, Dassualt are currently talking with the GoI about this now. Deal will be made by Dec 2016.
----
126= MMRCA (remember that? The requirement hasn't disappeared)

+
54 (with follow-on option of 36)- Dassualt is in talks for this many for the Indian Navy.

=>200

If one is to speculate it can be said the final numbers will touch much more than this- the IAF's SQN decline won't be addressed by LCAs alone and the MKI's production line will cease in 2019/20 and thus to get 45 SQNs by 2025 (as the GoI has told the IAF they must do) a lot of Rafales are going to have to be inducted to make up the shortfall.

As far as the IN is concerned the situation is rather complex as it depends on their aircraft carriers. As it stands there are 45 MiG-29Ks (3 SQNs worth) of MiG-29Ks for the INS Vikramditya but the INS Vikrant will be in service by 2018 and it will require its own airwing but 0 jets have been procured for it as of yet. Whilst it is possible to split the 3 SQNs of MiG-29K between 2 carriers this would mean they are going to sea well below capacity- 1 SQN each with 1 SQN on shore duties (trianing and unservicable). This is before one throws in the fact that the IN is mooting the idea of inducting a second 40,000 Vikrant class carrier because the IAC-2 is a long way off still. Thus 3 SQNs of MiG-29K for 3 ACs doesn't work at all.

And it is here that Dassualt has jumped into the fray- they are offering the Rafale-M for BOTH the IN's STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers ie this one plane coud operate from ANY IN AC (current or future) whilst the MiG-29K can only operate from STOBAR carriers. The IN is very interested in the Rafale-M as a result as they could standardise their training, logistics and spares for a single type in the long term and the IN is paranoid about their logistics (as well they should be) the last thing they want is waste and dupicaton of services. The IN also is keen as getting the Rafale will allow them to tap a common platform with the IAF and thus ensure ease of operations for the forseeable future (35-40 years). The IAF's MiG-29UPGs will be out of service by 2032.


Thus the IN's intial requirement for Rafale-Ms is 54 by 2025 but by 2030 it could be >100 and by 2035 it could be >160. The Rafale would also offer a great compliment to the N-AMCA in IN service especially if the French are roped in as a technical partner for the AMCA project.
 

abingdonboy

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While we are still stuck with negotiations, if it were Chinese, would have been churning out Rafales by now like no tomorrow.
They are also a single party state with no scope for oppostion- apples and oranges.
 

abingdonboy

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Who is opposing Rafales? Congress, lets not kid ourselves here with such silly excuses.
Not Congress but institutions are, as always, providing hurdles- Law, Finance, Defence, PMO etc etc. In China once the party wants something done it will be done. The current grandstanding by Parrikar that is slowing the entire process down would not be needed in China.
 

Illusive

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Not Congress but institutions are, as always, providing hurdles- Law, Finance, Defence, PMO etc etc. In China once the party wants something done it will be done. The current grandstanding by Parrikar that is slowing the entire process down would not be needed in China.
I would've agreed with you if this saga wasn't going on for over 10 years, the decision making has been diabolically slow and lax, even for Indian standards. Sure China can get things done fast and India slow, i wont argue there, but this has been going on for too long where aircraft squadron levels are at critical level.
 

abingdonboy

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I would've agreed with you if this saga wasn't going on for over 10 years, the decision making has been diabolically slow and lax, even for Indian standards. Sure China can get things done fast and India slow, i wont argue there, but this has been going on for too long where aircraft squadron levels are at critical level.
Hey, I agree with you. The orginal talks under MMRCA got itself into such a mess that they had to be scrapped and the current DM/GoI has itself failed to make a break through since intiating their own (MMRCA by another means) plan. The Indian side is simply getting too lost in the details and seemingly asking for the world, it's the same issue- bean counters being put in decsion making positions.

I had expected better from a self-styled "decisvie" leader (Modi) but he seems to be content with allowing the blind to lead the blind (babus and the DM).
 

Kshatriya87

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Does Pak have necessary infrastructure and money to maintain 5th Gen Aircrafts? They are not only expensive to buy but require a different industrial eco-system for upkeep & maintenance. Facilities at Kamra is good only for JF-17(primitive & unreliable).
Perhaps they don't know that fighters don't run on grass.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

Screambowl

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Their army itself has lots of business fronts. Paranoia of India seems to be really motivating factor for pakis. While we are still stuck with negotiations, if it were Chinese, would have been churning out Rafales by now like no tomorrow.
Chinese have done it, Pakis are doing it. The Indians are not doing it because Indians have a soft image, DEMOCRACY that to BIGGEST plus the visa norms for Indians are easy and lighter for western countries. But then norms don't stop pakis or the chinese too, as equal number of these two are settled abroad.

But any how, Prrikar seem to be a swift guy and man of actions. Hope he channelises negotiations faster.
 

garg_bharat

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Hey, I agree with you. The orginal talks under MMRCA got itself into such a mess that they had to be scrapped and the current DM/GoI has itself failed to make a break through since intiating their own (MMRCA by another means) plan. The Indian side is simply getting too lost in the details and seemingly asking for the world, it's the same issue- bean counters being put in decsion making positions.

I had expected better from a self-styled "decisvie" leader (Modi) but he seems to be content with allowing the blind to lead the blind (babus and the DM).
You are absolutely wrong. The fact is that PM and DM should not listen to IAF and drop Rafale completely.
The French are simply scre**** India.

Unfortunately our political leaders are too soft towards military.
 

Illusive

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I had expected better from a self-styled "decisvie" leader (Modi) but he seems to be content with allowing the blind to lead the blind (babus and the DM).
Same here, i thought the 1st priority for them would have been to clear this critical deal, sure OROP set us back for funding, but even getting 36 aircraft of shelf would have got things rolling.
 

Gessler

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" You are absolutely wrong. The fact is that PM and DM should not listen to IAF and drop Rafale completely.
The French are simply scre**** India.

Unfortunately our political leaders are too soft towards military. "

^^ @abingdonboy As I was saying....
 

abingdonboy

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You are absolutely wrong. The fact is that PM and DM should not listen to IAF and drop Rafale completely.
The French are simply scre**** India.

Unfortunately our political leaders are too soft towards military.
I'm not getting into this but what a load of nonsense.

The day when the polticans in India are "too soft" to the military- what a glorious day that will be. Maybe then the IAF wouldn't be forced to fly 40+ year olf junk, soldiers wouldn't be running around in pre-WW2 era junk or driving cold war vehicles.

"French are screwing India" without any facts to back this up or solutions to the crippling depletion in SQN levels (that continues every day)- how typical of this mentality.
 

Bornubus

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Can anyone tell us the advantage of Rafale over Mig 35 with AESA,the Russians offered us way back with TOT.

Also in BVR combat current Mig 29K has a advantage over SU 30MKI and F 16 Blk 52.The reason i am saying this because 29K is similar to Mig 35 and superior to Mig 29SMT.
 

garg_bharat

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Chinese have done it, Pakis are doing it. The Indians are not doing it because Indians have a soft image, DEMOCRACY that to BIGGEST plus the visa norms for Indians are easy and lighter for western countries. But then norms don't stop pakis or the chinese too, as equal number of these two are settled abroad.

But any how, Prrikar seem to be a swift guy and man of actions. Hope he channelises negotiations faster.
I'm not getting into this but what a load of nonsense.

The day when the polticans in India are "too soft" to the military- what a glorious day that will be. Maybe then the IAF wouldn't be forced to fly 40+ year olf junk, soldiers wouldn't be running around in pre-WW2 era junk or driving cold war vehicles.

"French are screwing India" without any facts to back this up or solutions to the crippling depletion in SQN levels (that continues every day)- how typical of this mentality.
India has a full volunteer military. Goddam resign and run.
Stop with your BS right now.
What squadron depletion? The kind of insubordination this govt. is facing, it will get very ugly and soon.
 

Indx TechStyle

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It's you people who are becoming American puppy now a days
As long as you can't differentiate between partnership and boot licking, I can't convene you. :p
By the way, a puppy generally obeys all rules meanwhile a partner always tries to neutralize other's influence on regular basis.
Pakistan rarely steps against China or Arabs, India has regular issues with US to keep our presence in control room.

If we take something, we give something valuable as well(not like pakis),

If still can't differentiate between India's partnership and pakistan's boot licking, you will call China a puppy of Russia.
Will you stick to your point? o_O

Now, Su-35, it's costly for you (but you can spend crazily on defense in percentage if you want. You still invest double of India in percentage.: D)
Moreover, it's a plane for which China had to get many hardships. Russians don't sell it easily. :biggrin2:
 

Indx TechStyle

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Well we would go for at third 4.5th Generation platform before going for 5th Generation.
Or you could stop your obsession with India and invest in defense low percentage like India is doing.
You had our double GDP per capita during freedom.
Now, we have 25% higher and will become your 3 times in next 20-25 years.
India will become a developed country at least 3 decades before pak.
Even then, it would be spending one of the lowest on defense in percentage (but larger economy gives larger budget). :D
 

Gessler

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I'm not getting into this but what a load of nonsense.

The day when the polticans in India are "too soft" to the military- what a glorious day that will be. Maybe then the IAF wouldn't be forced to fly 40+ year olf junk, soldiers wouldn't be running around in pre-WW2 era junk or driving cold war vehicles.

"French are screwing India" without any facts to back this up or solutions to the crippling depletion in SQN levels (that continues every day)- how typical of this mentality.
You ought to check this thread from Post #29 onward. I have already done a little profiling of this specimen. Definitely not the first kind of such person we've seen across all those forums...but interesting none the less.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...oject-to-proceed-alone-as-il-214.74962/page-2
 

Gessler

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Can anyone tell us the advantage of Rafale over Mig 35 with AESA,the Russians offered us way back with TOT.
Zhuk AESA is not very mature, they're still working on improving it. I'd take the RBE-2 PESA over it any day.

That said, MiG-35 never qualified for MMRCA requirements, therefore could not make the shortlist.

Other disadvantages are in the field of maintenance/life-cycle costs of the airframe, electronics & especially the engines. Payload capacity is lower, no supercruise etc.

Also in BVR combat current Mig 29K has a advantage over SU 30MKI and F 16 Blk 52.
Over F-16? Sure.
Over MKI? Nope. Sukhoi's radar is way more powerful, performance, payload capacity are considerably higher.

The reason i am saying this because 29K is similar to Mig 35 and superior to Mig 29SMT.
There's nothing on 29K that's not on the 29SMT/UPG.

I agree about one advantage IAF's 29UPG has over the MKI is that it has the ELT-568 AESA-based active jammers, which form part of it's internal EW suite. But I'm not sure if IN 29K has the same equipment or not.

 

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