Pakistan, Caste and dilemma of quislings

dhananjay1

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This map is not correct. Gujarat went to Delhi sultanate in 1299. Bengal was under independent Bengal sultanate by 1400. Eastern MP, chhatisgarh, Jharkhnad regions were under small time local kings.
Forgot to add, Malwa and Jaunpur sultanate were essentially independent by 1400.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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A primer on our shameful ‘nobility’
The word “noble” is to be used with caution for this lot. A third-rate nobility for a third-rate nation
Aakar Patel

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^^^
The article may be true but also could have some selection bias because it reflects personal frustration and confusion of the writer. Still somewhat honest and something different than usual narrative.

Anyway Hassan Nissar said in some video he will talk about Pakistans nobles left behind during British period who he says are all fake low life. (he like Aakar Patel, over a Whisky, English books and Urdu poetry likes to fantasize about some 'real' elites and nobles during Mughal time). If someone comes across such video post it here.
 

cyclops

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Balochis and POK Kashmiris protesting against Napaki occupation and human rights violation.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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Area Handbook for Pakistan
Richard Nyrup
U.S. Government Printing Office, 1975



When a Hindu of one of the higher castes converted to Islam, he often claimed the position corresponding to his Hindu caste; a Brahman, therefore, claimed the status of a Syed, a Kshatriya that of a sheikh, a Vaishya that of a Mughal, and a Sudra that of a Pathan. Because it is socially desirable to claim foreign origin, the ranks of the sherif have tended to grow over the years, and many of these claims have little basis in fact. A common proberb states, "Last year I was a Julaha ( weaver); .......
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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One Myth, Many Pakistans
By ALI SETHIJUNE 12, 2010

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/opinion/13sethi.html
.

Charter Myth

Charter Myths are stories that justify the status quo.
https://en.m.wikiversity.org/wiki/Classical_Mythology/Charter_myths
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-Charter-Myth-and-what-is-an-example-of-it


Most of our histories are like charter myths written in retrospect from perspective of small ruling class. One foreign invader fighting another for the topmost position of power structure to rule the slave class same way as they were ruled before. Where is space for the masses in all that? Why should the bahujan samaj carry all this burden of history. Especially when the ruling class is supposed to be some different tribes of superior genes, the foreigners, be it the Turk, the Aryans or the Europeans. If some regime change - the transfer of power - offers rare historical chance to get some benefits and access to power structure for one's family and jati by taking advantage of the chaos and colluding with one alien against other is it immoral?
 
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LordOfTheUnderworlds

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8 Type of Marriage in Hinduism


Types of Marriages in later Vedic Ages


Marriage Type Description


Brahma Vivah
Marriage of a girl with the boy of same Varna with Vedic rites and rituals​
Daiva Vivah
When father donated his daughter to a priest as a part of Dakshina.​
Arsa Vivah
A token bride-price of a Cow and a Bull was given​
Prajapati Vivah
Marriage without dowry​
Gandharva Vivah
It was a kind of love marriage or swyamavara type​
Asura Vivah
Marriage by Purchase​
Paisach Vivah
Seduction of a girl while sleeping or mentally unstable due to a drink.​
Rakshasha Vivah
Marriage by abduction​



Anuloma and Pratiloma Vivah:
The marriage of a man of higher Varna with a girl from lower Varna was called “Anuloma Vivah”. It was allowed by the sacred texts. The marriage of a girl of higher Varna with a man of a lower Varna was called “Pratiloma Vivah” and it was NOT allowed in the texts.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...aint-bjp-anti-dalit.80916/page-2#post-1420361

It's ok to Abuse Hindu Gods because it selects for those in Bureaucracy who would be low status & unlkely to rebel alongside eventual Hindu resistance.

Any type of higher level thinking in social influence could be called religion. Socialism, secularism, democracy are all religion.

Are you going to tell me that Sanatan Dharma which kept invaders at bay while Europe ran around in Dark age with Rome's population in 100AD not matching it until 1800s is undeserving of leading politics of country.

We should listen to German philosophers when already 1/4 babies in Germany were born to unwed mother in 1800s?

https://www.socialmatter.net/2018/02/05/fundamental-problems-democracy/
https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2017/12/13/bioleninism-the-first-step/

European ideas are imported as secular but Indian ideas on economics, thought, governance, family, poverty are called religious and only allowed to be learned by Goras in Harvard and applied to their society?

After they get stamp of approval and we fall worse into pits we get to try them in some caustic form.
All these isms and political systems big people keep talking about are derivatives of Judao-Christian european civilization. What is Indian alternative ? Caste system? Any other alternatives ?

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stamp of approval
Maybe people seek their stamp of approval because stamp of approval is seeked from authority and they are perceived to be authority. And they are perceived to be authority because they won? Jews and Christians won. Earlier Islamized Turks won.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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As usual when looking for some Indian alternative against Abrahmic rooted ideologies, savarna Indians have to go back to justifying and rationalizing caste system. After all if you hate Indian constitution because it is based on Christian europe/American counterparts and the influence of Ambedkar and Nehru and it has reservations and you want to look at alternatives at home where will you go searching other than Dharma Shastras?

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column-caste-as-social-capital-1387350

R Vaidyanathan | Updated: May 24, 2010

Caste is back. It is likely to be part of the 2011 census. It was part of the decennial censuses between 1881 and 1931.

Of the 1929 castes aggregated in the 1881 census, 1126 [58%] had population of less than 1000; 275 less than ten. A large number of them were single member castes. The British had created a social “hierarchy” on the basis of caste in that Census.

The alienated metropolitan rootless wonders (AMROWs) and other assorted experts are upset since they have concluded that caste is bad. They want to be counted in the census as “Indian”.


Every Indian is expected to feel guilty, whenever caste is mentioned and talked about. In international fora, caste is used as a stick to beat anything connected to Indian religions, customs, and culture. In other words, caste for Indians has been turned into what “holocaust” is for Germans and Austrians.

We have an uncanny ability for self-flagellation. But more tragic is our enthusiasm to convert all our strengths into weaknesses since some white men and missionaries started denigrating Indians on the issue of caste.

We fail to recognise that it is a valuable social capital, which provides cushion for individuals and families in dealing with society at large, and more particularly the State. The Anglo-Saxon model of atomised individuals in a contract-based system and forcing him to have a direct link with the State has had disastrous effects in the west where families have been destroyed and communities have been forgotten.

Every person is standing alone, stark naked with only rights as his imaginary clothes to deal directly with the State.

The State also does not have the benefit of concentric circles of cushions to deal with individuals. Caste has been made a curse by our intellectuals based on the half-baked knowledge and acceptance of the Euro-centric individual-based model, which is based on rights and contracts rather than relationships and duty.

At a basic level, caste promotes heterogeneity. Heterogeneous and distributive systems are more stable and long-lasting than homogeneous and centralised systems. Caste is a major bulwark against homogenisation tendencies of systems like Marxism, Maoism or Savarkarism or the Semitic faiths. We should realise that “our strength is our diversity” and acceptance of the “other”. It is much more than “multicultural tolerance”.

It is also assumed that caste is a rigid hierarchical system which is oppressive. But as observed by the renowned sociologist Dipankar Gupta that “In fact, it is more realistic to say that there are probably as many hierarchies as there are castes in India. To believe that there is a single caste order to which every caste, from Brahman to untouchable, acquiesce ideologically, is a gross misreading of facts on the ground” The truth is that no caste, howsoever lowly placed it may be, accepts the reason for its degradation”(Dipankar Gupta in Interrogating Caste; pp1; Penguin Books 2000)

History does not support the thesis of caste discrimination. If it were as oppressive as it is portrayed then there should have been massive and regular caste wars in the last thousand years. There have not been any. If it has survived thousands of years then there is some inherent strength in it. The renowned Gandhian, Dharampal has demonstrated that data for Madras, Punjab and Bengal Presidency for 1800 to 1830 shows that the majority enrolled in the schools were from OBC and SC categories.

Caste has played an important role in the consolidation of business and entrepreneurship particularly in the last fifty or so years. The World Bank suggests that the remarkable growth of Tirupur is due to the coordinated efforts of Gounders, many of whom not even matriculates. “(World Development report, 2002 pp175; The World Bank). In a financial sense caste provides the edge in being a risk taker since failure is recognised and condoned and sometimes even encouraged by the group.

We have the exhaustive Economic Census of 2005, conducted by the Central Statistical Organization (CSO) which covers 41.83 million enterprises engaged in different economic activities.The survey finds that more than 50 per cent of the enterprises are owned by SC/ST/OBC categories.

As MN Srinivas, doyen of sociologists, pointed out that “An important feature of social mobility in modern India is the manner in which the successful members of the backward castes work consistently for improving the economic and social condition of their caste-fellows. This is due to the sense of identification with one’s own caste, and also a realisation that caste mobility is essential for individual or familial mobility”(Collected Essays; pp196-197, OUP2005).

Caste should be counted in 2011 census for all religions since every religion has caste even though we pretend it does not exist. It is required for policy planners and experts to work on a road map to calibrate changes based upon the census. We may have to enumerate a new caste called “Indian” consisting of the AMROWS mentioned above.
He might be right in his own world. It would make sense but only as long as you have some capital. But not necessarily for those who don't have any form of social capital.

Caste is a major bulwark against homogenisation tendencies of systems like Marxism, Maoism or Savarkarism or the Semitic faiths.
So this so called Savarkarism i.e. Hindutva also needed the templet of european nationalism. (and RSS was formed by ex-congress member).

.

Anyway, if Bahujan Samaj of Pakistan wants to look for the cure for zombie plague. Where will they look for alternative? In caste? What if they are deeply apprehensive of the same thing. What will be their status. What if dharma offers them only condemnation? Who will offer salvation? Jesus the Jew?
 

Khalsa_Panth

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Yes caste is fine, natural & men are tribal. Only cucks posit otherwise & he has out it more eloquently than I would।।
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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Copied from here

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/chit-chat-thread.4046/page-1337

History in textbooks goes like this - Ashoka the secular who gave up violence > Harshvardhana who was a secular buddhist > Akbar the great who was gold standard for secularism > evil English took over > Congress under leadership of mahatma fought evil English > Freedom, be grateful to mahatma, congress and sekularijam.
My favorite is when they hide that Akbar converted away from Islam. He founded a separate religion Din-i-ilahi. When Akbar became so-called secular, he was no longer Muslim :pound:
Sure bro look at these
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Din-i-Ilahi


Read more here
http://www.payer.de/quellenkunde/quellen148.htm
This is how Akbar treated Islam after his conversion


There are writings of a Badayuni which detail Akbar's Kafir phase and Jahangir tried to destroy these writings. It is called Muntakhab al-Tawarikh.

This is a nice 4 part blog called A Ghazi turned Kafir: the Case of Akbar's U-Turn
https://bharatendu.com/2009/03/12/a-ghazi-turned-kafir-the-case-of-akbars-u-turn-1/

There is a reason secular people hide his history and why jihadis/pakis don't celebrate him :biggrin2:
I consider him partially cured of Islam. As he didn't outright rejected Islam but did away with all exclusivism and rituals associated with Islam and adopted many non-Islamic practises. It was most likely result of close association with Rajputs.
Congrats buddy.

Actually Din-i-Ilahi was more similar to Zoroastrianism & Jainism than Islam. Similarly, Dara Shikoh even claimed that Lord Rama came in his dreams to advice him on matters of policy. He also claimed that Upanishadas were the lost books mentioned by Abrahmic religions.
That is the point he completely rejected Islam with passage of time. There is an event in Akbarnama where after a debate between Jesuits & Maulvis he very specifically said that Islam doesn't gives true belief but only fear. He, on that day even lamented that in his youth he killed & forcibly converted many under the influence of such a religion!!!


Well there used to be a lot of Hindu Pathans. The Nooristan region of Afghanistan was known as Kaffiristan till the beginning of 20th century as the people their practiced Vedic rituals. It was after a collective Jihad the area was converted from Kaffiristan to Nooristan. Many of the Hindus of that area then escaped to "safer" areas of Peshawar & Lahore. It is possible some of them migrated to India in 47.
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/chit-chat-thread.4046/page-1338



@Project Dharma @LordOfTheUnderworlds @Mikesingh
Sir what is a hindu pathan, apparently The Wire writer Vinod Dua is a hindu pathan refugee I thought Pathan are only Muslim?

TBH U would expect a victim of Jehadi rampage to keep his head straight but the dude has shoved his too far in the ass.
I think Dua is a Khatri surname but don't know for sure.
Dont know. But guessing from the Khatri caste surname, could be Hindu/Sikh migrant from Af-Pak region migrated at the time of partition or Taliban rule. Khatris though claim to be Kshatriya (Sikh gurus were Khatris); they are trading community for at least past few centuries and like Gujarati traders travelled and traded with far away countries (in case of Khatris, Afghanistan and Central asia).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatri
https://penguin.co.in/book/business/caravans-punjabi-khatri-merchants-silk-road-pb/

And Pashtun regions also have somewhat diverse society where everyone could sometimes call themselves by generic term 'Pashtun', but the dominant tribes would say they only are Pashtuns and the artisan caste people are low caste migrants from plains of what is now Pakistan.
 

Asif Khan Janjua

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One Myth, Many Pakistans
By ALI SETHIJUNE 12, 2010

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/opinion/13sethi.html
.

Charter Myth



https://en.m.wikiversity.org/wiki/Classical_Mythology/Charter_myths
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-Charter-Myth-and-what-is-an-example-of-it


Most of our histories are like charter myths written in retrospect from perspective of small ruling class. One foreign invader fighting another for the topmost position of power structure to rule the slave class same way as they were ruled before. Where is space for the masses in all that? Why should the bahujan samaj carry all this burden of history. Especially when the ruling class is supposed to be some different tribes of superior genes, the foreigners, be it the Turk, the Aryans or the Europeans. If some regime change - the transfer of power - offers rare historical chance to get some benefits and access to power structure for one's family and jati by taking advantage of the chaos and colluding with one alien against other is it immoral?
dont bring your caste baste syatem to pakistan please, we are too civilized for that.

We have no relationship with you.
 

F-14B

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Good to know.
.
Aap Khan sahab ho, ya Janjua ho?
actually he is quite confused which is a common trait of all Pakistani their mind they know that the Hindu but all this Islam Ka Kila stuff has gotten into the brain and f***** it up quite badly that is a problem with Mr Asif Khan janjua also
This also shows the Classic case of a fruit not falling far from its tree the only way to coexist in the Indian subcontinent is two except the common history that we all share and the more Pakistan disAssociates itself from India the more problems it will have
 

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