Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

DaRk WaVe

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There are only rumors about Nuclear Submarine, I personally think Pakistan cannot afford it, the best choice for PN will be more Diesel Electric Submarines, Chinese Sub Marines must be secondary, We need U-214s & according to deal which is under shadow of doubt one of the U-214 was to be built in Karachi, this will certainly give PN a good know how of advanced Western Subs(Augostas were built in Pakistan as well) & it will be feasible to go on a joint venture for a submarine with China

Plus it seems that PN is doing what PAF is doing i.e a mixture of Western & Chinese Platforms, OHPs are on the way, F-22Ps are coming,P-3Cs have been inducted as well & Pakistan is interested in 4000 Ton Frigate the Type-054A & now here are Chinese submarines
 
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thats all fine.But my question is how can india get nuke sub without raising eyebrows but for pakistan there is lot of noise about NPT,MCTR etc.Coz both india and pak are non signatory to these treaties.
2 simple answers:

Pakistan's main adversary is India next door a diesel-electric is sufficient to meet the threat. India's main adversary is China who has 70 submarines. Pakistan has second strike capability against India, India does not have a guaranteed second strike capability against China. There is a imbalance, that is so important in the view of NATO.

India is spending a lot for their sub program, no country will spend this much for Pak program no matter how much of an ally they are hyped to be.Building the subs is one thing, building the miniature reactor is another, supplying the fuel is another, fitting and testing the missiles as you can see it will run into the billions and violate so many wonderful treaties, why do this when diesel-electric will do the same thing for Pakistan's main adversary India who is a stone's throw away.
 
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Oracle

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thats all fine.But my question is how can india get nuke sub without raising eyebrows but for pakistan there is lot of noise about NPT,MCTR etc.Coz both india and pak are non signatory to these treaties.
Because Pakistan is a notorious proliferator along with China. Plus Jihadis are taking Pakistan over.
 

ajtr

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Because Pakistan is a notorious proliferator along with China. Plus Jihadis are taking Pakistan over.
Intricacies of nuke proliferation is quite deep and blaming it all on the pakistan is not doing justice to it.Pakistan is just the tip of the iceberg or i say sacrificial goat of nuke proliferation when the powers of the time nodded and winked at it in affirmation for their own interests.
 

Kunal Biswas

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If PN is getting new nuclear sub it must be old Type 091 Han class as newer 093&095 are meant to replace them, But its highly doubtful these would be nuclear but diesel electric subs which may be Song or Yuan class..
 
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Yusuf

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Leasing a sub and selling a sub are two diff things. When india leased the sub, there was no transfer of any tech that violated the NPT. No fuel was sold and the reactor was maintained by the soviets. Indian sailors got practical experience of being on a nuke sub and then it was returned, even now its the same thing. Russia is not selling any long range SLBMs that violates MTCR nor is it selling any reactor for the sub.

Selling of a sub definitely violate NPT as it amounts to selling nuclear material to a non NPT country. Technicalities. Pakistan can well lease a boat from china to avoid china violating the NPT.
 

ajtr

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^^Pakistan too can get nuke sub on lease just like india without violating any treaty and anything which can be used as war fighting machine is good.A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. unlike the indian army's and airforce's kargil experience when GOI went for emergency purchase.
 
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^^Pakistan too can get nuke sub on lease just like india without violating any treaty and anything which can be used as war fighting machine is good.A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. unlike the indian army's and airforce's kargil experience when GOI went for emergency purchase.
AJ why does Pakistan need a nuclear sub when Diesel-electric can do the same thing?? The main adversary India is right next door no need to go in the deep waters for extended period of time. How will China justify this in the UNSC??
 

nrj

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Pak should get a nuke sub, AC & Nuke deal; Israel can have N-tipped SLBMs & Iran can't even have aNuke program? Thats really unfair.... BTW its gud if PAK has Nuke sub (even if leased), we can test another Smiling Buddha.....
 

ajtr

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LF,
Think from the point of view of Generals in GHQ rawalpindi;they would sure love to expand the field of engagement like attacking on indian east coast or to trail indian AC deep in IOR etc.
 
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LF,
Think from the point of view of Generals in GHQ rawalpindi;they would sure love to expand the field of engagement like attacking on indian east coast or to trail indian AC deep in IOR etc.
They would love an ICBM also to attack Israel and USA maybe China should help with this too?? How is this any different from above??
 
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bhramos

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PN is fearing of IN 2 N-subs, 1 will definatly be aimed at it. rest may be in IOR.
as for PN's strategies, PN's subs like agusta-90 were capable of destroying IN's carrier,
but now after IN n-subs the PN's subs superiority or edge over IN is gone, those pn agusta cant stand infront of INS Arihant anymore, so they may be trying for N-subs to get back their edge.
 

AJSINGH

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AJ why does Pakistan need a nuclear sub when Diesel-electric can do the same thing?? The main adversary India is right next door no need to go in the deep waters for extended period of time. How will China justify this in the UNSC??
probably to attack the eastern sea board of India ,since it is out of range for diseal electric submarine and needs to refuel before it can attack the west cost
 

Kunal Biswas

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AJ why does Pakistan need a nuclear sub when Diesel-electric can do the same thing?? The main adversary India is right next door no need to go in the deep waters for extended period of time. How will China justify this in the UNSC??
@LETHALFORCE,
PN may get a nuclear sub on lease, but its very possible not now as their eco is somehow standing, As a fact in 1971 war when PN send PNS Ghazi and positioned itself around Vishakapatnam, In modern day new Ghazi ( Supposedly future PN-Han class ) don't need to cross Arabian sea but bypass it and wait in Indian Ocean for command signal ( Theoretically ), So PN leasing Nuclear attack sub in future is possible..

 

nrj

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@LETHALFORCE,
PN may get a nuclear sub on lease, but its very possible not now as their eco is somehow standing, As a fact in 1971 war when PN send PNS Ghazi and positioned itself around Vishakapatnam, In modern day new Ghazi ( Supposedly future PN-Han class ) don't need to cross Arabian sea but bypass it and wait in Indian Ocean for command signal ( Theoretically ), So PN leasing Nuclear attack sub in future is possible..
Will China be able to take down that heat in UN justification?
 

AJSINGH

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@LETHALFORCE,
PN may get a nuclear sub on lease, but its very possible not now as their eco is somehow standing, As a fact in 1971 war when PN send PNS Ghazi and positioned itself around Vishakapatnam, In modern day new Ghazi ( Supposedly future PN-Han class ) don't need to cross Arabian sea but bypass it and wait in Indian Ocean for command signal ( Theoretically ), So PN leasing Nuclear attack sub in future is possible..

wont it be intercepted while in madras or when it leaves karachi
 

ajtr

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They love an ICBM also to attack Israel and USA maybe China should help with this too?? How is this any different from above??
If USA is comfortable with pakistan accquring nukes then sure it 'll be comfortable with pakistan acquiring nuke sub and ICBM too.BTW they have been attacking USA since mid 1990s to 9/11 to till the latest incident of times square.I dont see if usa has any problem with pakistan attacking usa on its soil.Instead usa is made to pay Jaziya for all those attacks by pakistan in the form of aid.
 
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@LETHALFORCE,
PN may get a nuclear sub on lease, but its very possible not now as their eco is somehow standing, As a fact in 1971 war when PN send PNS Ghazi and positioned itself around Vishakapatnam, In modern day new Ghazi ( Supposedly future PN-Han class ) don't need to cross Arabian sea but bypass it and wait in Indian Ocean for command signal ( Theoretically ), So PN leasing Nuclear attack sub in future is possible..

[/QUOTE

You are right Kunal and it is also theoretically possible Pakistan can attack many other nations not just India with the sub.
 

bhramos

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wont it be intercepted while in madras or when it leaves karachi
we can Intercept it as we have more powerful anti-submarine warfare planes then in 1971.
Il-38 and P-8I can do this work a lot easier.
 
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If USA is comfortable with pakistan accquring nukes then sure it 'll be comfortable with pakistan acquiring nuke sub and ICBM too.BTW they have been attacking USA since mid 1990s to 9/11 to till the latest incident of times square.I dont see if usa has any problem with pakistan attacking usa on its soil.Instead usa is made to pay Jaziya for all those attacks by pakistan in the form of aid.
True AJTR, then USA would not mind if Pakistan shares these things others.
 

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