Pakistan adding submarine muscle while India hems and haws

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Someoneforyou, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Someoneforyou

    Someoneforyou Regular Member

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    Pakistan adding submarine muscle while India hems and haws
    India - 11 april 2011

    NEW DELHI: Even as India dithers in even finalizing its new submarine programme called " Project-75 India", Pakistan has moved swiftly to seal a deal with China to acquire six advanced submarines equipped with crucial air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems.

    Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface or snorkel every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. But those fitted with AIP can stay submerged for much longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities, somewhat narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines which of course can operate underwater for virtually unlimited periods.

    While India is still years away from getting an AIP-equipped submarine, Pakistan already has one in the shape of PNS Hamza, one of the three French Agosta-90B submarines inducted by it over the last decade. Moreover, work is also underway to retrofit the French "Mesma" AIP in hulls of the other two submarines, PNS Khalid and PNS Saad.

    The six new-generation submarines from China, the improved Yuan-class boats with "Stirling-cycle" AIP, will further add a punch to Pakistan's underwater warfare capabilities.

    India, in sharp contrast, has so far refused to consider the Mesma AIP option in the ongoing Rs 23,562-crore project (P-75) to build six French Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL), already running three years' behind schedule with the boats now slated to roll out from 2015 to 2020.

    "There has also been a huge cost escalation. To incorporate the steam-based Mesma AIP in the 5th and 6th Scorpenes would cost another $100 million or so," said a senior defence ministry official.

    "Moreover, Navy is more keen on fuel-cell AIP. DRDO is developing one such system, which has been tested on shore. If it comes through, it can be considered for the 5th and 6th Scorpenes," he added.

    To further compound matters, there is excruciatingly slow progress on P-75I, which envisages acquisition of six new stealth submarines, equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP, for over Rs 50,000 crore.

    The RFP (request for proposal) to be issued to foreign collaborators like Rosoboronexport ( Russia), DCNS (France), HDW (Germany) and Navantia (Spain) will be possible only towards end-2011 at the earliest.

    "If one foreign shipyard can give AIP, it cannot provide land-attack missile capabilities, and vice-versa. So, P-75I is very complex...it will take at least two years to even finalize it, and another six-seven years after that for the first submarine to be ready," he said.

    The plan till now is to directly import two submarines from a foreign collaborator, with three being built at MDL in Mumbai, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam under transfer of technology.

    Incidentally, Navy will have only five of its existing 10 Russian Kilo-class and four German HDW submarines by 2020. Consequently, even with the six Scorpenes, India will be far short of its operational requirement of at least 18 conventional submarines for the foreseeable future.



    Source: The Times of India
     
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  3. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    I tried to understand it from time to time but I failed to understand that how one of most critical aspect of Naval defence ie submarines can be neglected. On one hand we are going for Aircraft carriers and we donot have enough submarines to be part of carrier battle groups or protect our vast coastlines. How can we dream of offense when we do not have proper defense in place? I am sure in times to come Pakistanis will have upper hands in submarine fleet for sure and that will be a dangerous situation.
     
  4. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    We are working on our own indigenous AIP that will be going on scorpenes. Pakistan has still not demonstrated any submarine launched missile capability.By the time Pakistan gets these subs all the P8-I 's will have arrived.
     
  5. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    DRDO is working on an fuel cell based AIP, but that will go into the last two subs of the Scorpene series only if the tests are successful. But Pakistan already has one of the three Agosta subs with AIP and will add AIP to the rest two also. Besides all six subs they are acquiring from China will be AIP equipped. As with ballistic missile front, it seems they are doing a good job to bolster their underwater capability also. Something we are still learning.
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    we are designing and building our launch tubes and torpedo tubes, all have been tested successfully.
    we will eventually have a much more diversified choice of sub launched missiles -Klubs,exocets,Brahmos, (Nirbhay??)cruise missiles and K-4,K-15,AGNI's in ballistic missiles. We have indigenous minituarized reactor for our nuclear subs, we are designing our own AIP. When we do it ourselves it may take longer but we will always be able to build more. If China gets to be a too much of a problem when a govt with some guts arrives we should expand our ICBM program focused solely at China.
     
  7. Atul

    Atul Founding Member

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    The IN has a well developed Anti Submarine Warfare, with currently having a fleet of Tupolev Tu-142M, Kamov Ka-25, Ka-27 & the Ka-31.

    The P8-I which is expected to join in by 2013, will be a more lethal platform coz it will be armed with missiles, Mines and Torpedoes, so the best place for the Pakistani Subs will be their ports @ Karachi.

    But that does not mean that the Submarine Induction can go in its own pace, offence is the best defense, the war if it happens must be fought @ the Pakistani Ports.. similar to what happened in 1971.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
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  8. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    who is giving money to these beggers
     
  9. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    I guess China is offering some kind of a soft loan to Pakistan to buy these AIP equipped 6 Chinese Subs.
     
  10. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    heheheheeheheh ....... firsty im not sure they are what you named such as ..... "chicks" is giving it free without any cost to them in return for encroachment in GNB ....... china no probs with giving stuff free to pak .....what china wants now is strategic placement ........ trying to be wannabe usa eh ? and pak is more or less bankrupt ...so sell land for equipment !!
     
  11. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Chinese are desperate after the arrival of Arihant and more nuclear submarines being built in the future,this is an attempt to shift Indian focus from China
    towards Pakistan/Arabian sea.The Diesel electric subs we have will be more than enough for Pakistan and the nuclear subs can be used against China.
     
  12. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well, LF, I will rest easy when all these developments, which are of course much more than anything Pakistan will ever have, are a reality and have been operationalized on a full scale. But we still don't have any conventional sub production plans of our own, lets put aside the Arihants for now. Building a conventional sub is easier than an nuke sub, until we have such an indigenous program, I will keep my fingers crossed.
     
  13. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Sandeep since we are building tubes and sub launched cruise missiles, I would not be suprised to hear something was in the works but kept quiet. What good are arrows without a bow??
     
  14. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    That is incisively true!

    --

    IN is not sleeping. Everyone knows that Pak is China's guinea pig.

    Also, drafting shouts over same old news again & again isn't going to make IN weaker. LOL.
     
  15. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    In this case beggars are also choosers? :D
     
  16. vijaytripoli

    vijaytripoli Regular Member

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    They are not beggars, actually there are on buying sphere . Selling their country for bunch of weapons..!
    Chau
     
  17. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    Don't you think LF that even the small diesel electric Subs that we have and plan to build in future are also required to be focused in Bay of Bengal and keep eye on Chinese subs loitering in area???

    The Scorpenes we get around 2015 would be enough for PN to keep them busy in Arabian Sea. What do you think???
     
  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I agree chex, I would also say Indian assumptions of Chinese hegemonic expansion are true. If they were not they would have no need to use Pakistan as a proxy.
     
  19. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    As of now, only thing that's known is that there's plan for 3 Arihants and 6 Scorpenes, even if we are to assume that something is going on the conventional sub front, where exactly will the manufacturing process be carried out ? There's only two facilities available in India, Mazagaon Docks and Garden Reach, both of which are already occupied with current orders for frigates and the Scorpene subs.
     
  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    you are forgetting kilos and leasing Akula. 10 Kilos are reportedly in service??
     

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