PAK FA preliminary Stealth Assesment - Ausairpower

[JineshJK]

F117 is old technology, and shooting down one plane does not mean much if anything, stealth planes have flowen tens of thousands of mission and this is the only time one has been shot down. Seems to me flying tens of thousands of missions in to the most heavly defend space in the world and only one loss proves stealth is worth any price that has to be paid.

US stealth jets never flown a serious mission to any heavily defended(with modern equipments) air space by a capable country.

Even current stealth technology is not enough to penetrate so called "most heavily defend air space". Shooting down one plane that America bragged as undetectable and advanced, using old Soviet S-125 means much more and world community realized... "another gimmick"!! Shot down by 38 year old technology (S-125)!
F117 stealth technology literally came from Russia. America used Petr Ufimtsev theories on radar wave reflection and diffraction. Actually Soviets rejected Ufimtsev's model because of its poor flight characteristics. Search for "Lockheed credits Soviet theory in design of F-117".
"Ufimtsev taught at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), which is the same school that Ben Rich, developer of the F-117 "Stealth Fighter", studied for his graduate degree" -Wikipedia.

 

[JineshJK]

maneuvering capability is just a turd the Russians keep polishing because they dont have stealth or reliable BVR air to air missiles. If their air to air missiles are not even 50 percent reliable then you can bet their SAM 500 is no better. The best radar that as Russian plane has wont be able to detect an F22 outside 15 miles, well with in the range of even the F22 and F35 medium range missiles. The first time Russian planes come up against american planes its going to be just as embarassing as it has been in the past. The best weapons, pliots and stratgy the USA has not been able to shoot the f22 down, even when its badly outnumbered.

Russians keep polishing the card 'Maneuverability' because their primary opponent on the market(US jets) lacks it, and it is definitely an important factor for any combat aircraft. They are so confident that in 1996 at Farnborough, Mikhail Simonov challenged Americans for a mock combat, No one responded.
Also Russian Su-27s outperformed F-15s in mock close combat at Langley AFB 1992. Underestimating Russian BVRs just because of some news reports.. not a fair analysis.
Russian SAMs are better known for nothing but their performance, reliability and ruggedness. Even poorly maintained out of life Scud missiles caused lot of problems for Patriot missile developers and the force which forced them to study the guidance system of captured Scuds!!
"F-22 stealth is a delusion: every VHF (i.e. long wavelength) radar inthe world can detect the F-22 at 150 to 200 miles,and the Russians, and others, have built and sold thousands of such radars." - line from 'The Heritage Foundation, Then and Now'.

 

[average american]

Real World
U.S. F-15 Eagle Kill Records:

5 Iraqi Mig-29 Fulcrums
7 Iraqi Mirage F-1's
8 Iraqi Mig-23's
2 Iraqi Mig-21's
1 Iraqi ll-76
2 Iraqi SU-25 Frogfoots
3 Iarqi SU-7/17
1 Iraqi MI-24 Hind
2 Iraqi SU-22 Fitters
2 Iraqi MIG-25 Foxbats
4 Serbian Mig-29 Fulcrums
1 Afghan MI-24 Hind (F-15E)
2 U.S. UH-60 Blackhawks (fratricide)

Israeli F-15 kill records:

80-92 Mig-21 Fishbeds
several MIG-25 Foxbats

Royal Saudi Air Force F-15 kill records:

2 Iranian F-4E Phantoms
2 Iraqi F-1 Mirages
1 Iraqi Mig-25

Japanese F-15 kill record:

1 Japanese F-15J (accidental shooting by another Japanese F-15J)

Ethiopian SU-27 kill record:

4 Eritrean MiG-29s
Russian shot down one Georgian plane.

In a dog fight an F22 does not have an advantage and just a few rounds for a gun, but used as inteded.

" Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22"²s capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision — mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted."

F-22 Raptor Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report - ABC News
Real World.
Modern Air-to-Air kill record thread

 

[average american]

When you combine AGM-154 JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) glide bomb with a 500 kilometer range. with stealth bombers there are no defendable targets in the present day world.

 

[sayareakd]

When you combine AGM-154 JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) glide bomb with a 500 kilometer range. with stealth bombers there are no defendable targets in the present day world.

AAA hit on your glide bomb will make it useless.

 

[asianobserve]

AAA hit on your glide bomb will make it useless.

That would not be easy with stealth shaping, radar absorbing coating and lack of thermal signature (due to lack of engine)...

 

[sayareakd]

F117 is old technology, and shooting down one plane does not mean much if anything, stealth planes have flowen tens of thousands of mission and this is the only time one has been shot down. Seems to me flying tens of thousands of missions in to the most heavly defend space in the world and only one loss proves stealth is worth any price that has to be paid.

Lol, is't supposed to invisible?
Plus taken out by 1970 tech speaks lot about it.

 

[WMD]

When you combine AGM-154 JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) glide bomb with a 500 kilometer range. with stealth bombers there are no defendable targets in the present day world.

I don't think a glide bomb can make 500km.

 

[asianobserve]

I don't think a glide bomb can make 500km.

Unpowered AGM-154 does not reach that far it only has a range of 70 nm. But there's a powered version called ER that can reach 300 nm. Of course the trade off in this setup is the therma signature due to the inclusion of a small turbojet engine. The turbojet can however be turned off once the missile enters densely protected airspace and just glide to the target.

 

[average american]

I don't think a glide bomb can make 500km.

this one is powered with a rocket.

 

[WMD]

this one is powered with a rocket.

the turbojet powered one is still in experimental stage, by the time its operational someone will come up with a suitable countermeasure assuming one doesn't exist.

 

[average american]

The JSOW-ER, a powered version of the JSOW, is powered by a Hamilton-Sundstrand TJ-150 engine. The engine can be easily integrated on the back section of the JSOW, and provides an extended range of 300nmi. The free-flight demonstration of the missile was successfully completed in November 2009. 300 Nautical Miles is about 500 kilometers. I think AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) - Airforce Technology They have a spray stealth paint now....

Serbian MiG29 pilots vs NATO in 1999 - personal accounts part 1/2.avi - YouTube

Serbian MiG-29 pilots addmit the F-15 BVR capability was the main reason their MiG-29 were down even having better R-73 AA-11s for dogfights

 

[average american]

AHFM stealth coating

Northrop Grumman has developed a new radar-absorbent coating to preserve the B-2's stealth characteristics while drastically reducing maintenance time. The new material, known as alternate high-frequency material (AHFM), is sprayed on by four independently controlled robots.

In November 2011, the USAF awarded a $109m contract to Northrop Grumman for producing a redesigned aft deck for the B-2 stealth bomber.

B-2 Spirit Stealth Bomber - Airforce Technology

 

[average american]

I get the feeling that from a stealth stand point the PAK FA does not mean much. From what I pick up, the shape is stealthy to help sell it, but the shape is just a small part of stealth, essential but still just one of many componets that the PAK FA wont meet.

F22 has Radar signature approximately the size of a bumblebee, thereby avoiding detection by the most sophisticated enemy air defense systems
Signatures/emissions of sound, turbulence, and heat that can aid detection are reduced
Requires no direct assistance from electronic support aircraft that may be more easily detected
Includes planform alignment of the wing and tail edges, radar-absorbing sawtoothed surfaces, an engine face that is concealed by a serpentine inlet duct, "stealthy" coating cockpit design to minimize the usually substantial radar return of pilot's helmet
Through internal weapons placement, the F-22 eliminates multiple surface features that could be detected by enemy radar
http://www.f22-raptor.com/technology/stealth.html

The over all stratgy of air warfare is as much or more importance then individual planes.

 

[average american]

the turbojet powered one is still in experimental stage, by the time its operational someone will come up with a suitable countermeasure assuming one doesn't exist.

That was an older article, rocket powered JDAMS already in production,
"JDAM provides warfighters an effective, accurate and battle-tested weapon," said Dan Jaspering, Boeing director of Direct Attack Programs. "The Lot 14 contract and its additional options assure the long-term availability of this cost-effective weapon."

The Air Force and Navy have used JDAM weapons extensively in Afghanistan and Iraq. JDAM is a low-cost guidance kit that converts existing 500-, 1,000- and 2,000-pound unguided free-fall bombs into accurately guided "smart" weapons. Its modular design allows customers to easily upgrade the weapon in the field to provide additional capability, such as laser guidance and extended range. Boeing has produced more than 210,000 JDAM tail kits since 1998.

Read more: http://www.asdnews.com/news-24367/Boeing_Awarded_$72_M_JDAM_Production_Contract.htm#ixzz2SKuMNP5e

 

[average american]

They have developed a JDAM without rockets that now will travel 45 nautical miles..
SAINT LOUIS, Mo. — What's better than a Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) capable of flying 15 nautical miles to destroy a moving target? Why a JDAM capable of flying 45 nautical miles to reign down death and destruction on some bad guys fleeing in a pickup truck (or tank). The engineers at Boeing — and an unnamed U.S. ally — think so too and are developing a wing kit for the 500-pound and 2,000-pound version of the bombs (shown above) that will triple the effective range of the famous GPS and laser-guided bombs, Boeing officials told DT during a June 7 briefing at the company's facility here.

http://defensetech.org/2012/06/08/boeing-developing-jdam-wing-kits-tripling-range/

The Boosted Unitary Penetrator concept is based on achieving maximum penetration in a weapon that will fit internally in the F-22. Total system weight will be less than 1300 pounds. A dense metal warhead will be used with a wraparound rocket motor. Use of next generation compressed seekers and aero-control designs along with reaction jet control will allow the size to shrink sufficiently to fit inside F-22 and JSF. Advanced explosives will be used to compensate for the reduced charge weight. This concept integrates the boosted penetrator warhead with a JDAM guidance kit with an adverse weather Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR).

 

[JineshJK]

Real World
U.S. F-15 Eagle Kill Records:

5 Iraqi Mig-29 Fulcrums
7 Iraqi Mirage F-1's
8 Iraqi Mig-23's
.....

Well lets start from the quality and training level of Afghan, Serbian, Iranian and Iraqi AF. They were trained with poorly maintained aircraft and equipments. There is no way that we can assume they were prepared and practiced modern air battle techniques and strategies.. over the incredibly equipped NATO force.
Same about Syria, With the help of E-2 Hawkeye AEWACS, Israelis were able to hear Syrian ATC communication with each aircraft. That is a clear monitoring of Syrian air base, which aircraft, which pilot, when, to where going to take of...!! Yeah with that level of intelligence support and highly professional well trained Israeli pilots, no room for surprise.! They also claimed that,"if they switched the aircraft with the enemy then also the result would be same."
Almost all NATO air missions are backed by highly capable AEWACS, so no chance for any AF inferior in fund, tech, number, training and equipment. Thats the 90% of kill record from US jets.

Of course F-22s BVR capabilities are superb when combining its AESA Radar and VLO design, but that doesn't mean it is superior to all other jets and a good dominant one.

 

[JineshJK]

When you combine AGM-154 JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) glide bomb with a 500 kilometer range. with stealth bombers there are no defendable targets in the present day world.

500km rage version comes with rocket motor and that means good IR signature for missile seekers, any airborne or ground AAA are real threat.

 

[average american]

One B2 can drop 180 GBU rocket powered glide bombs, even if a county could hit them with missiles, how many do you think could afford that kind of defense or target 180 or even a 1000 of the rocket powered glide bombs. especially 24/7 , there is not a practical defense. B2s B52 can act as bomb trucks launching 180, 212 rocket powered glide bombs are up to 80 or 100 air to air missiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9KpjgHYjcA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zMrAYSxYjbg

 

[JineshJK]

One B2 can drop 180 GBU rocket powered glide bombs, even if a county could hit them with missiles, how many do you think could afford that kind of defense or target 180 or even a 1000 of the rocket powered glide bombs. especially 24/7 , there is not a practical defense. B2s B52 can act as bomb trucks launching 180, 212 rocket powered glide bombs are up to 80 or 100 air to air missiles.

Future Dogfights pt 1 - YouTube

Future Dogfights pt 2 - YouTube

Sorry, 180 what kind of GBU?

AGM-154 weight-438kg - 497kg
AGM-158 weight-1021"¯kg
B2 internal bay load -23t

I dont think US AF will use $700million/unit B-2 against any well equipped air defence units with interceptors.

Pls dont post those 'Future dogfight' aka 'endorsement of F-22'...