Pak Demands Mohenjodaro's 'Dancing Girl' From India, Says Indus Valley 'Our Heritage'

Razor

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Yes from 47, but you can go through Akask kumar's replies too, from 46.
See that's what I feared. Long posts (Navnit kundu) and disorganized/haphazard posts (akask) kills the mood.
In this thread I read only indx style's post a some posts on the first page :D
Ok lemme read them :)
 

Razor

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what does the word 'parSia' contain then ? :lol:

And I don't get it. Foreign adding 'S' to call Parsia ( then whats actual name of persia?) and Parsians removing S and calling Sindhu as Hindu ??
Persian and Iranian are not exactly interchangeable. These are terms applied to these people by themselves or others at various points of time.
For eg: In ancient India people did not refer to themselves as hindu or bharatas but as per their tribal or geographical terms.
That is why verses saying: "pandyas, the bull among men" or andhras, nagas, keralaputras etc allied with so and so.

Persian is apparently from a region or city named "pars" or "parsa" which the greeks eventually called persis/persia.
The people of the region called themselves by various names depending on geography and/or other factors. So you have names like "arya", "mede", "partha", "saka" and so on which the ancient iranians called themselves.

If asura can become ahura, then it is also possible, hindu word was given by Saurasthra people of Gujarat, as replacing H is common there.
For example in Gujarat if someone asks 'Kem che' ( How are you)
Answer will be 'Saru che' (doing good)
But in Saurashtra they will reply with 'Haru che'. One may find plenty of words replaced with H there.


I would also like to know what is original name of Parsia.
But the saurashtra language is not as old as earliest references to term "hindu" which is in 6th century BCE.

@Akask kumar
In addition to this, Avesta has not become AveHta and Zoroastrian has not become ZoroaHtrian.
Avestan is a different language than what is known as persian language (which itself is derived from old persian; note that these terms old persian etc are terms by western world, the native people might have used different terms to denote their language)
The term "hindu" seems to be from old persian from where it spread to other languages.

Now why hindu and not sindhu could be due to any one or more of the reasons like, corruption of written form as compared to spoken form, preference of a particular sound over another (perhaps due to certain customs,) interchangeability of certain sounds.
But since I'm not a linguist I can not pin-point the reason.
 

Bharat Ek Khoj

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Persian is apparently from a region or city named "pars" or "parsa" which the greeks eventually called persis/persia.
Still there's an 'S' in it.

But the saurashtra language is not as old as earliest references to term "hindu" which is in 6th century BCE.
Saurashtra is not separate language. Its still Gujarati but with slightly diff dialect.

Avestan is a different language than what is known as persian language (which itself is derived from old persian; note that these terms old persian etc are terms by western world, the native people might have used different terms to denote their language)
Question remains the same.
Others called them Persian ( no original name for them ? ) and those unkonwn people called us Hindu ? In that case Parsi also becomes a given name to them.
So no identity people gave us name hindu while Parsi didn't became ParHi. So who are these people ?

corruption of written form as compared to spoken form,
Its called 'Apbhransha', common in most indian languages derived from Sanskrit and/or Prakrit.
 

jackprince

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Some other scholar told me that it's derived for the people who have Himalayas in North and Ocean in South.
Hi from Himalaya and Indu (इंदु) from Indu Mahasarovara (इंदु महासरोवर), now called Indian Ocean together makes Hi+Indu = Hindu.
Well, you might chose t tell that scholar that the modern day trend of deformed abbreviation was very much unlikely to have been present among the earlier times. It most likely was another of drunk brain-storming that now-a-days are found in SMs.
 

Razor

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1. Still there's an 'S' in it.


2. Saurashtra is not separate language. Its still Gujarati but with slightly diff dialect.


3. Question remains the same.
Others called them Persian ( no original name for them ? ) and those unkonwn people called us Hindu ? In that case Parsi also becomes a given name to them.
So no identity people gave us name hindu while Parsi didn't became ParHi. So who are these people ?


4. Its called 'Apbhransha', common in most indian languages derived from Sanskrit and/or Prakrit.
Did you read only part of my post?

1. I already gave some possibilities to why it became hindu, which also applies to your questions of why "s"?; why h instead of s? etc
2. Gujarathi is not as old as 6th century bce either.
3. Question answered actually. There is original name for them, which I mentioned (did you not read?)
They referred to themselves by various names. "arya", "saka", "partha".
The Achaemenid ruler darius 1 (6th century bce) referred to himself as "arya". So that is the name you look for. (But note that he ruled an area which had many nationalities, do you see the problem here? ;) )
4. And that is one possible reason for hindu/sindhu, perhaps?
 

Bharat Ek Khoj

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Did you read only part of my post?

1. I already gave some possibilities to why it became hindu, which also applies to your questions of why "s"?; why h instead of s? etc
2. Gujarathi is not as old as 6th century bce either.
3. Question answered actually. There is original name for them, which I mentioned (did you not read?)
They referred to themselves by various names. "arya", "saka", "partha".
The Achaemenid ruler darius 1 (6th century bce) referred to himself as "arya". So that is the name you look for. (But note that he ruled an area which had many nationalities, do you see the problem here? ;) )
4. And that is one possible reason for hindu/sindhu, perhaps?
We do have misunderstanding.

I agree hindu is not ancient name, our discussion is about who started using the word Hindu.
2. Gujarati is dated as no older than 6th century. But it could be older. Lothal was part of Indus Valley Civilization.
3. Your point makes only sense if I consider them Arya, I have to ignore saka. Also Pars doesn't seem original name.
 

Razor

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We do have misunderstanding.

1. I agree hindu is not ancient name, our discussion is about who started using the word Hindu.
2. Gujarati is dated as no older than 6th century. But it could be older. Lothal was part of Indus Valley Civilization.
3. Your point makes only sense if I consider them Arya, I have to ignore saka. Also Pars doesn't seem original name.
1. 6th century bce first reference to "hindu." It is up to you whether you call it ancient. I would call it ancient.
2. But there is no evidence that gujarathi is as old as 6th century BCE, is there?
Also 'lothal' being in present day gujarat, doesn't mean they spoke guarathi, in fact language of IVC is not considered to be Indo-iranian by almost every linguist additionally according to some leading linguist, like asko parpola and irravatam mahadevan, was probably a proto-dravidian language.
3. Do not understand what you mean.
a. "if I consider them Arya": the achaemenid kings called themselves arya, they ruled an empire with several nationalities, their lingua franca/business language was also various and not necessarily indo-iranian (for eg: aramaic, because the achaemenid rulers were themselves invaders from central asian region, and couldn't quickly remove the native languages of the region before the achaemenids came. It takes time.)
b. "saka" are an ancient iranic tribe which was initially nomadic before settling down in various places.
c. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_Province
 

Akask kumar

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We do have misunderstanding.

I agree hindu is not ancient name, our discussion is about who started using the word Hindu.
2. Gujarati is dated as no older than 6th century. But it could be older. Lothal was part of Indus Valley Civilization.
3. Your point makes only sense if I consider them Arya, I have to ignore saka. Also Pars doesn't seem original name.
i think i got your answer.

the people of persia called their kingdom/empire/country Iran(in ancient times). the term "Persia" was popularized by the western world because of greeks.[same way "India' was and still used to describe our country-because of a Greek traveller Megasthenese]

whole world called that piece of region Persia till 1935 ,when Reza shah(ruler of persia] requested foreign delegates to use the original name i.e. "IRAN"..

so in nutshell -- Iran was called as Persia before 1935 - and after 1935 the name was changed to Iran..
Iran is the original name..

The situation will be similar if Narendra modi requests foreign delegates to use term "Bharat" to describe our piece of land..

i am providing you the link..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Iran

Iran has been called as persia in west and in India(east) word "Farsi" is quite popular to describe them & their language..
 

Bharat Ek Khoj

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Can you tell me what wikipedia is trying to tell under "The two names in the West" in that link?
It talks about Sassanids Empire. Is it before persia or after ?

From the history it looks like lots of 'S' has been assigned to Iranians by foreigners.
Is it irony that once who removed S from Sindhu, later overloaded with the word S ??
Avesta, prophet Zoroaster, Zoroastrian, Parsi, few places name, king name.....
 

Screambowl

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all guys are hindus who have Omar as their name why? Because it starts from Om ..

we should make thes ebogus statement to Pakis.. to counter their bogus logic. Isse zada kuch nahi karna..
 

Akask kumar

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Can you tell me what wikipedia is trying to tell under "The two names in the West" in that link?
It talks about Sassanids Empire. Is it before persia or after ?.
people of Iran have always called thier country IRan.. its just the western and greek people that used thier own name to describe the place. i think during Sassanids west called it persia.

like before Brits came to INdia we called our country HIndustan and they India..

Evidently from the time of the Sassanids (226–651 CE) Iranians have called it Iran, meaning "the land of Aryans" and Iranshahr
from the time of Sassanids historians have the valid proof that Persia was called as Iran or Iran-shahr(city) officially by thier gvt

before Sassanids there were few more names popular inside Iran , they were - Aryānām , Airyanem [plural of aryan].etc

same way we use to call India with different names from time to time as Bharat,Bharatvarsha,Aryavrata etc.. n later hindustan ..


they called themselves Arya ,dsnt mean aryans are native to Iran land.. thats what they claim.Thats an entire dfferent topic to discuss..

From the history it looks like lots of 'S' has been assigned to Iranians by foreigners.
Is it irony that once who removed S from Sindhu, later overloaded with the word S ??
Avesta, prophet Zoroaster, Zoroastrian, Parsi, few places name, king name.....
if u read the vadakayil link that i provided-- its says that a british guy was used to translate Zend avesta and he did lot of manipulation while translating.. HIs manipulated book is now used as original source and the original must be in Vatican library (i guess) like lots of other imp historical religious books.

See world history is mostly written by western society.. even we have adopted their nomenclature..
Ganga--ganges.
Ved-- veda or vedas.
Shiv-Shiva.
arjun-arjunaa..
 
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Akask kumar

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Can you tell me what wikipedia is trying to tell under "The two names in the West" in that link?
It talks about Sassanids Empire. Is it before persia or after ?

From the history it looks like lots of 'S' has been assigned to Iranians by foreigners.
Is it irony that once who removed S from Sindhu, later overloaded with the word S ??
Avesta, prophet Zoroaster, Zoroastrian, Parsi, few places name, king name.....
i think this statement will end all confusion .. its from the above link..

  • Persia is the Western name of the country, and Iranians were calling their country "Iran" for over a millennium.
  • Persia evokes the old culture and civilization of the country.
  • Persia and the name of a province of Iran (viz., "Pars") are from the same root, and may cause confusion.
  • The exonym Persia comes from "Pars" but the meaning shifted to refer to the whole country.
  • In Western languages, all famous cultural aspects of Iran have been recorded as "Persian" (e.g., Persian carpet, Persian cat, Persian cuisine, Persian melon, Persian pottery, etc.)[11]
Pars was a province in ancient Iran which greeks used to refer to the whole country as Persia..
and Pars was called/pronounced as Fars later in Iran ..that explain the origin of name Farsi...
Ya S is there.. coz later Iran came to Islamic influence and the original zoroastarian were outnumbered ..

so there are two Persia/Iran -- pre Islamic and ISlamic.. be careful about the time frame. I think S gained poularity and usage after ISlamic invasion/genocide of Iranis..
 
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Bharat Ek Khoj

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So the original iranians gave the word hindu that influence entire world.

Vadakil always goes with half truth, half fiction.
I'm no linguistic expert but he says there's no Z word in Sanskrit then how is झ pronounced ? If not exactly, I think its nearest to Z.

Also it also doesn't make sense if they don't have original name for Avesta or Zoroastrian.


from the time of Sassanids historians have the valid proof that Persia was called as Iran or Iran-shahr(city) officially by thier gvt
Did he belong to iran or persia ?
 
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Akask kumar

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So the original iranians gave the word hindu that influence entire world.

Vadakil always goes with half truth, half fiction.
I'm no linguistic expert but he says there's no Z word in Sanskrit then how is झ pronounced ? We don't pronounce it as 'Jha'.

Also it also doesn't make sense if they don't have original name for Avesta or Zoroastrian.



Sassanids - how many S ??
YA .. in zend avesta Sapta Sindhu is written as Hapta Hindu.. thats enough to prove my point.
Iran/persia was a mighty civilization - we must have traded with them a lot because they were sitting right across border.. when Islam dominated the land they must have adopted pre-islamic dialects and customs of that land.. so the word HIndu continued from Iranis to arabas to modern India

Ya avesta and Zoroastrian seem foreign words..

The surviving texts of the Avesta, as they exist today, derive from a single master copy produced by Sasanian Empire-era (224–651 CE) collation and recension. That master copy, now lost, is known as the 'Sassanian archetype'
above from Avesta wiki..

the original is lost.. so we have to stick to the western creativeness/adulteration..

झ and Z pronounciation is entirely different and certainly Z has no place in sanskrit(sanskrit was in my shool syllabus) but in Malyalam Z is used..for instance

when Vasco Da Gama came to calicut, the king of calicut at that time was Zamorin.

believing vadakayil blog is totally upto you. i believe him because i have found him True on several occasions and in my own research over internet..
 

Bharat Ek Khoj

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in zend avesta Sapta Sindhu is written as Hapta Hindu.
Is there something like old avesta, original avesta ? Its really irony that name changed, content remained the same. Usually we have opposite, in case of Ramayan or Mahabharat.

Also, do they accept Avesta and Zoroastrian as foreign influenced words like you (not me, still having doubts) accept hindu is given by foreigners ?
 

Akask kumar

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Is there something like old avesta, original avesta ? Its really irony that name changed, content remained the same. Usually we have opposite, in case of Ramayan or Mahabharat.

Also, do they accept Avesta and Zoroastrian as foreign influenced words like you (not me, still having doubts) accept hindu is given by foreigners ?
The Parsis were persecuted by the Shia Muslims in Iran in the 8th cenrury AD at the end of Sasanian empire.Many sought shelter in India ,a gujarat Rajput king - Jadi Rana of Kathiawad-Saurashtra gave them piece of land to live , which was called as Sanjan by parsi immigrant.

The Indian king asked them to explain their religious beliefs and customs, which they did. The Rajput King Jadi Rana's enquiry into Zoroastrian beliefs and customs is said to have been satisfied by the recitation of fifteen Sanskrit verses (Shloka) that summarized the most important tenets of Zoroastrianism. These fifteen verses, together with another verse that is believed to have been the king's response to them, are collectively known to the Parsis as the "Sixteen Shloka". and whole story is in book written by parsi immigrant in india as KISSE-I-SANJAN

The refugees accepted the conditions and founded the settlement of Sanjan, which is said to have been named after the city of their origin (Sanjan, near Merv, in present-day Turkmenistan).

i think their most of the text was destroyed by the muslims,(like they always do).. but the text survived an oral route by the parsi priests in India.

Content didnt remain same.. the british used Abraham Hyacinthe Anquetil-Duperron who was fluent in Sanskrit , Persian and Hebrew to do translation.

He stayed in India for seven years (1755–1761), where Parsi priests translated the Avesta for him . He edited a French translation of that Persian translation in 1771, the first printed publication of Zoroastrian texts.

while translating he did his best effort to omit the realion between Zend avesta and veda but some solkas scaped his eyes ..

(a) Words where ‘s’ in Sanskrit has changed to ‘h’ in Zend:
asura — ahura
soma — homa
sapta — hapta
maasa — maaha
senaa — henaa
[i am] asmi — ahmi
[they are] santi — hanti
vivaswata — vivahnata

(b) Words where ‘h’ in Sanskrit has changed to ‘j’ or ‘z’ in Zend:
hridaya — jardaya
hasta — janta
varaaha — varaaja
hotaa — jotaa
aahuti — aajuti
him — jim
hve — zve
vaahu — vaaju
ahi — aji

(c) Words where ‘shva’ in Sanskrit got modified to ‘spa’ in Zend:

vishva — vispa
ashva — aspa
shvan — span
krishaashva — krishaaspa

(d) Words where “t” (the soft ‘t’) in Sanskrit got modified to ‘tha’ (soft ‘th’ like in ‘thank’) in Zend:
mitra — mithra
trita — tritha
traitaal mantra — thraitaan mantra


Sir William Jones, who founded the Asiatic society of Calcutta is the creator of the comparative grammar of Sanskrit and Zend. He wrote in 1775 AD -- 'When I perused the Zend glossary, I was inexpressibly surprised to find that seven words in ten are pure Sanskrit, and even some of their inflexions formed by the rules of the Vyácaran 1, as yushmácam, the genitive plural of Yushmad. The language of the Zend was at least a dialect of the Sanskrit”.



its just not persian many other civ also have this lingual problem...

Japs cannt say L, they say R.
Chinese cannot say R, they say L.

like one guy told u .. there were two tribes Devas and Asuras fighting each other in ancient times.. Devas had vedas and the Asuras had modified vedas as avesta and zend ..

India accessed the european countries Via Middle east... thats why HIndu words got poularized , same way Beej ganita came to western world as Algebra from middle east route..
 

Razor

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Its about 'S'. My entire argument is based on 'S', because thats how sindhu became hindu.

Isn't Iran the latest name of Persia ?
I can not give a complete answer because I'm not linguist but some guesses I can make I already made in previous posts (see last para of #62 for eg.)

For eg: the word business how is it written in hindi? Is it because it can not be written accurately in devnagari? No, but people prefer to pronounce it that way.
 

Razor

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So the original iranians gave the word hindu that influence entire world.

Vadakil always goes with half truth, half fiction.
I'm no linguistic expert but he says there's no Z word in Sanskrit then how is झ pronounced ? If not exactly, I think its nearest to Z.

Also it also doesn't make sense if they don't have original name for Avesta or Zoroastrian.



Did he belong to iran or persia ?
I don't know about vadakil but that is not "half truth half fiction."

That sound which you have represented using 'Z' is not present in English or Hindi or sanskrit.
Afaik it is only present in Dravidian languages (eg: Malayalam, Tamil)
 

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