Pak army repeats Kargil in Keran

TrueSpirit

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My take on my blog Preventing,fighting more “Kerans” | Sarvatra Vijay

As India the Indian PM shook hands with his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharief, Pakistani army along with its sponsored and trained terrorists numbering between 30-40 with supporting fire from across the LC infiltrated into the Keran sector.

It took fifteen days for the Indian Army to clear the area and restore the sanctity of the LC in an area which has thick forests, nallahs at considerable heights.

The Army Chief Bikram Singh has clearly said that this infiltration will certainly not be the last and in fact will only increase. He also said this cannot happen without Pakistan's support.

While reasons for how the infiltration happened will be found, how to prevent and fight such infiltration along with the necessary mandate to local commanders will have to formulated.

The infiltration happened in what is being termed as a ghost town. Its not possible for Indian Army to cover every inch of the LC. India has over the years employed electronic surveillance on the LC imported from Israel. It doesn't seem enough. India will need more hands on approach and that is employing armed drones or UCAVs. The US has used it to a telling effect in taking out terrorists in Pakistan but in India's case, it will have to be in a 24/7 surveillance cum attack mode. Use them to look for any infiltration or attempted infiltration and use the missiles on board to take out the infiltrators, even if it means firing across the LC. Large number of these UCAVs will be required. The cost involved in deploying them will be quite small considering the men and material required in combing operations and the potential loss of territory because the terrain in most areas are treacherous. Pakistan still holds some peaks in Kargil after the war that Indian Army didn't consider strategically important enough to lose men over its capture. So its important that India deploys armed drones or UCAVs along with other electronic surveillance and the men that we deploy to guard the LC.

But then the LC still may not be completely un-impregnable. Indian Army has years of counter insurgency experience. But lacks critical equipment to fight the terrorists. Its only on the sheer courage and bravery of its soldiers that it wins the battles. During the operations in Keran, six soldiers were injured. One of them was hit in the abdomen. Now this area of the body should be protected by a bullet proof jacket. If he was wearing one,the quality of the BPJ comes into question, if he wasn't wearing one,why is the question. India Army for years has battled to get equipment for itself to equip its soldiers with life saving bullet proof jackets but is still short. It does not even have a good standard issue of helmet to protect the head. These are basic safety equipments.

An equipment which is a must is a night vision devise (NVD). Another solider injured in the Keran sector said they were firing in the dark. Why should that be the case. Having NVDs will be a huge force multiplier especially because the terrain is so bad where night time would be a good time to go after the terrorists looking to hide till day time. Every soldier in a Keran type op should have an NVD.

Employment of thermal imaging cameras will be a clincher. We have already seen some footage on media where Indian Army has employed such cameras and used it to telling effect in killing terrorists trying to infiltrate. But these will be even more handy in a Keran type operation to hunt and kill infiltrators.

A weapon system that will be very handy in these type operations is the Javelin missile. Originally an anti tank weapon, it has been used to good effect by the US troops against Taliban in Afghanistan. It can be used to take out temporary bunkers, small houses where terrorists hide and also used in urban environment where terrorists are holed up in houses which can be taken out without much collateral. It can be used to take out enemy posts providing supporting fire to infiltrators from across the LC. India has been dithering on the co-development and co-production option for these missiles with the US. We could buy some off the shelf for immediate deployment.

The above mentioned is not something the Indian Army doesn't know about. My submission here is that if there is a constraint to provide each and every soldier with such equipment, the Indian Army may have to ready a crack team of anti infiltration commandos equipped with all such devices who can be air dropped into the infiltrated zone while the outer perimeter is secured by other soldiers in Keran type infiltration which could be a repeated offence by Pakistan along different areas of the LC.

We are going to face tough times over the next year and beyond as terrorists free from Afghan war make their way towards India. We will have to come up with new assessments and new doctrines on how secure our country from Keran like infiltration and to make sure those terrorists who do make it across to our side of the LC, don't go back alive or make it out from our cordon and do this with minimum to no loss of lives of our own troops. Which means greater emphasis on using technology and making sure every soldier going into harms way has a great chance of making it alive.
Excellent perspective & write-up Yusuf. Thank you.
 

TrueSpirit

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@Singh Any particular book from Praveen Swamy that you recommend ?
 
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Singh

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@Yusuf @Kunal Biswas

Do you recommend use of Javelin-like AT munitions over mortars, in such terrain ?
Javelin would be an overkill and ineffective due to terrain. Maybe Carl Gustav Recoiless Rifle or RPGs can be provided to troops in case the terrorists/Pak soldiers are using some shelter, their munitions are cheaper.

Something more potent like a saturated attack by arty and mortars imo would be more effective due to nature of the terrain.

Again, nothing can beat Air support in such a case, targeted attacks by UCAVs or even attack helos could've easily done this job in a matter of minutes.

This just shows how dysfunction our purchases and preparednes is.

If we had more advanced UCAVs or UAVs they could've have easily picked up tangos, and destroyed them, without Army having to mobilize troops.

if we would've got M777 light weight howitzers, and Chinooks,(that are on order) these could've been airlifted to this sector to undertake saturated attacks.

if we would've had Apaches (again on order) they could've have used their FLIR and NV to guide attacks or take them out themselves. They excel at night.

Portable laser targeting pods (Which we have afaik) could've allowed Air Assets to destroy them.

Using AirFore assets could've also done the job - Jaguars have CBU-105 they would've ensured vaporization of the very bones of the terrorists, Mirage have Laser targeted pods, whose munitions would've flattened the terrain itself.

==

Please read Praveen Swami's post to understand how ineffective old methods are in such a situation.
 
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arnabmit

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If we had drones with SAR or other Optical/Thermal/IR equipment we could've have easily spotted them. Something like a Predator would've even taken them out via hellfire missiles.
Better option then costly CLGM/Hellfire/Helina

[video=youtube_share;SNPJMk2fgJU]http://youtu.be/SNPJMk2fgJU[/video]
 
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Twinblade

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@bennedose

If we had drones with SAR or other Optical/Thermal/IR equipment we could've have easily spotted them. Something like a Predator would've even taken them out via hellfire missiles.
The efficacy of IR sensors in drones takes a hit when it comes to areas with dense foliage like this. What is required is drones with FOPEN radar ( like the Rustom-1 is going to have) to monitor movements under the garb of forest cover.
 
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Yusuf

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Must read by LtGen Ata Hasnain

The Keran episode shows that the jihadists are desperate to keep the Valley on the boil until they can give it their full attention after international troops withdraw from Afghanistan in 2014
The incidents at Keran have been dubbed as "Kargil II" by the media and the perceived delay by the Indian Army in pushing back the intrusions led to many screaming headlines. But there is no need to go hyper. This was never Kargil II. Kargil had strategic importance because of the Leh-Srinagar Highway and the link with Siachen. The Keran/Shalabatu episode was a clever ploy to push the maximum number of terrorists into the Valley. This is not the first time that Shalabatu has been used for infiltration or concentration.

Largely patrolled

First, let us understand the ground. The road links to this area are poorly developed because of the terrain and its remoteness. Keran is a generic name being attached to the area because that is the closest tehsil headquarters. In between Shalabatu and Keran is a huge mountain ridge. It is a desolate area that falls between the North Shamshabari range and the Kishanganga (Neelam to the Pakistanis) river. It is so heavily forested that it is not possible to hold the Line of Control (LoC) in this area without deploying a disproportionate number of troops. The fence runs on the North face of the Shamshabari Range approximately two to three kilometres inward from the LoC. The area ahead of the fence has a few posts, but it is mostly dominated by patrolling. The treacherous terrain and forest cover make it easy for terrorists to sneak up to the vicinity of the fence and seek their opportunity. The area on the other side is also not very strongly held by the Pakistan Army. However, stray minefields exist, the jihadi's occupational hazard.

An assessment

What is the Pakistan Army attempting? Very simply, it has done an appreciation of the troops available to the Indian Army's 15 Corps and can assess just how many troops we can spare to carry out eviction operations. The first reaction on the Indian side has to be from troops in flanking locations — areas where the Pakistan Army has not been too successful in infiltration in the last couple of years. These areas give immediate access to the dense Rajwar/Hafruda forest and Lolab Valley that hug the southern slopes of the Shamshabari and are the favourite haunts of the terrorists with sufficient support and caches/hideouts.

What would any Pakistani general do once he makes no headway in traditional areas? He tries to create space there by diverting attention and forcing redeployment of the adversary, in this case the Indian Army. He chooses a point of contact to concentrate upon and reviews the terrain to ascertain if it gives him any advantage. Any military brain can assess that the point of contact should be Shalabatu. Further east in the Machhel area, there is simply no cover, at least not for a sizeable conventional aided terrorist intrusion.

The area roughly between Jumagund Nar and Shalabatu Nar (a Nar is a nullah) is the broad swathe of territory which the Pakistan Army has targeted knowing that it will take some time for it to be discovered. Once discovered, it is not easy to manoeuvre through the jungle and fight a pitched battle. Therefore, more troops have to be called in if the counter infiltration grid on the fence is not to be diluted. This will force the use of troops deployed on the flanks at least for some time thus opening up gaps. Notice the operation near Fateh Gali (25 km south west of Shalabatu) where four terrorists were gunned down by a flanking unit of the same brigade. The infiltrators were simply working to plan. Then came Gujardur, on the north western flank. The discovery of a large cache of weapons along with a huge haul of other warlike stores proves that this was the route to be exploited. The vigil of the Indian Army, being what it is, the plan was stymied.

Why was the Army taking so long? No answers are required. It proceeded professionally and ensure minimum losses. It had to build up strength from the hinterland; roads and tracks here are scarce. Since there were no strategic or operational level losses the Indian Army could use caution and take its time. The Pakistan Army could ill-afford to conventionally build up on such an intrusion because the territory is south of the Kishanganga river and offers little manoeuvring space. Conventional armies hate fighting with a water obstacle right behind them. It also knows that its other major vulnerability, the Neelam (as the Kishanganga is known in Pakistan) Valley Road is under total domination of the Indian Army. That is the road which feeds this area. Even in the worst case scenario, the Indian Army can cut off this road with fire, the painfully long bypasses notwithstanding.

Strategic issue

All these are tactical issues. The larger strategic issue is that Pakistan is worried about the Valley. The strength/boots on the ground are insufficient to run an effective Azadi programme. Even if they want to inspire street protests and demonstrations it needs the skills of more than a handful of terrorist leaders. The pot has to be kept boiling. More terrorists are required because without that the movement may be in its dying days. Desperation to a large extent is responsible for the current intrusion into Keran, which could have been used as a base for further infiltration had it not been discovered. Everything is aimed at 2014-15, when international troops withdraw from International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), and jihadists can turn their attention once again to the Valley.

For the strategic analyst this becomes one more event in the long trail of the Pakistan Army's "conflict initiation." It was bound to end as all such events have with "conflict termination" by India. It is good to see public interest at a high but the daily media dose should be informed, without recourse to shrill demands on the Army. Uninformed speculation only aids Pakistani adventurism. The Army knows what it is doing and is doing it well.

(Lt. General Syed Ata Hasnain is a former Corps Commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps.)



http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed...le5214886.ece/?maneref=http://t.co/UzL8La3ABY
 

bennedose

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Looking at photos of the terrain I think what we need is radar that can see through foliage and trees because even IR won't work. Personally I don't think it would be a simple matter to use Helina or Hellfire simply to take out single individuals. That would give the Pakis a formula for "bleeding" by sacrificing men each of whom needs a million dollar missile to take them out rather than one bullet.

The simplest thing to do would be to shell and destroy all the Pakistani border posts and supply routes up to a distance of 15 km from the LoC. I suspect that you can get fifty 155 mm shells for the price of one Hellfire. Note also that we are actually fighting with one hand tied behind the back. Be it a UAV or a helo - it would be vulnerable to ground fire from across the border that Pakistan would deny. So what is needed is to push the Pakistan army into defensive mode by returning to the bad old days when we would shell the crap out of them. This would be an escalation but if such infiltration attempts keep occurring - sooner or later 2 -3 men will slip in and then there will be some mayhem in an undefended area. That is all they want - some mayhem and deaths to keep the pot boiling and morale high.

The way to fix their morale is to beat the crap out of them using artillery and mortar. But political goolies are needed. And India has no Pakistan policy.
 

Singh

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Looking at photos of the terrain I think what we need is radar that can see through foliage and trees because even IR won't work. Personally I don't think it would be a simple matter to use Helina or Hellfire simply to take out single individuals. That would give the Pakis a formula for "bleeding" by sacrificing men each of whom needs a million dollar missile to take them out rather than one bullet.


The simplest thing to do would be to shell and destroy all the Pakistani border posts and supply routes up to a distance of 15 km from the LoC. I suspect that you can get fifty 155 mm shells for the price of one Hellfire. Note also that we are actually fighting with one hand tied behind the back. Be it a UAV or a helo - it would be vulnerable to ground fire from across the border that Pakistan would deny. So what is needed is to push the Pakistan army into defensive mode by returning to the bad old days when we would shell the crap out of them. This would be an escalation but if such infiltration attempts keep occurring - sooner or later 2 -3 men will slip in and then there will be some mayhem in an undefended area. That is all they want - some mayhem and deaths to keep the pot boiling and morale high.

The way to fix their morale is to beat the crap out of them using artillery and mortar. But political goolies are needed. And India has no Pakistan policy.
There are two issues
1. We don't have the right equipment
2. We don't have the right strategy


In such situations where Pakistani Special Forces are assisting terrorists and have holed up in Indian territory, a thermobaric weapon can be used to put the fear of God into them and signal our intent. And it is cheap as hell, much much cheaper than a hellfire missile. I believe Daisy Cutter is 30k$.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Both, Millans are used often from fixed position, 84mm RCL is a cheaper effective weapon ..

=======================


Few points >

In Absence of UCAV, Simple UAV could coordinate with Mortar units and can pinpoint enemy locations, Mortar units could bombarded these positions with or without Precision ammunition ..

MI-17 can lift 105mm Guns to the location and could have been used ..

Rudra already in service can do the job with other Lancers ..

=================

Infantry up-gradation is very important, Army have to be self - reliant and should able to conduct operations on its own without much IAF help, New tactics needed to be practiced for better efficiency and most importantly with what we have already and in Country ..


@Yusuf @Kunal Biswas

Do you recommend use of Javelin-like AT munitions over mortars, in such terrain ?
Again, nothing can beat Air support in such a case, targeted attacks by UCAVs or even attack helos could've easily done this job in a matter of minutes.

This just shows how dysfunction our purchases and preparednes is.

If we had more advanced UCAVs or UAVs they could've have easily picked up tangos, and destroyed them, without Army having to mobilize troops.

if we would've got M777 light weight howitzers, and Chinooks,(that are on order) these could've been airlifted to this sector to undertake saturated attacks.

if we would've had Apaches (again on order) they could've have used their FLIR and NV to guide attacks or take them out themselves. They excel at night.

==

Please read Praveen Swami's post to understand how ineffective old methods are in such a situation.
 
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Ray

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Keran operation ends; now it's gunsmoke and unanswered questions

by Praveen Swami Oct 9, 2013

Its finished: the fighting in the mountains around a ghost village the general said didn't exist, against invisible enemies who've melted back across the Line of Control, leaving just a haze of smoke and questions hanging in the air. Earlier today, the Indian army announced that it was calling off the search for Pakistani intruders in the mountains around Shala Bhata, exhibiting weapons and combat equipment recovered during searches. There's no word, though, on who the intruders were, why they came, and why it took so long to get them out. For the best part of ten years now, ensuring the Line of Control stayed peaceful was the keystone of the Prime Minister's Pakistan policy — an objective maintained even the cost of absorbing body-blows, from 26/11 to the killing of Indian soldiers in cross-border raids.

In the mountains around Shala Bhata, the fighting has ended — but the policy is facing its moment of truth. No full account of just what happened at Shala Bhata has emerged in the week since Firstpost broke news of the intrusions. But intelligence and army sources have given some insights into the most serious fighting on the Line of Control in a decade. The fighting was sparked off, military sources say, when two observation positions on the Line of Control, code-named Khukri and Kullar, were briefly left unheld. Troops of the 3-3 Gurkha Regiment failed to replace their counterparts from the 20 Kumaon Regiment on time, for reasons that still aren't clear. Troops who later headed towards the posts, which dominate Pakistan's own forward positions around Shala Bhata, were then fired on by Pakistani positions from across the Line of Control. The army denies these posts are occupied by Pakistani troops — a claim which seems accurate. It has been equivocal, though, on the question of whether the positions were left unheld, and, if so, when they were reoccupied. Major-General Bobby Matthew, Additional Director-General for Public Information at Army Headquarters, did not respond to a text message seeking comment. Even as firing at Kullar and Khukri gathered momentum, meanwhile, Pakistan launched intrusions across the Line of Control, perhaps seeking to target Indian troops moving towards the Line of Control. XV corps commander Gurmit Singh had said on 27 September that drone imagery established that ten to twelve intruders had been killed by his troops. Their bodies, though, are no longer there, showing the cordon the 268 Brigade had thrown around Shala Bhata wasn't able to choke off Pakistani resupply and evacuation lines. "Let's assume it took just two men to carry away each of the twelve bodies", a military officer says. "That means Pakistan was able to push at least 24 personnel across the Line of Control, and get their bodies back without Indian troops being able to retaliate or block their progress". The 268 Brigade, as well as the adjoining 68 Brigade, began combing the mountains — but came up blank. Fresh infiltration efforts on the flanks of the Shala Bhata belt were blocked. Three terrorists were killed by the 17 Punjab regiment, some four kilometers away from Shala Bhata, and another two at Gujjardor. Four more by the 12 Garhwal along the Ratu Nar stream near Farkian. These bodies have been found — but the army's claims of success elide over the fact they were killed outside the Shala Bhata cordon, in unconnected counter-infiltration operations Heat, but little light, has been shed by senior military commanders. In remarks to journalists on Tuesday, Lieutenant-General Singh described the Shala Bhata skirmish as a "desperate infiltration bid", rather than an intrusion. He had earlier said, though, that Pakistani special forces personnel were involved. General Bikram Singh, the chief of army staff, insists the Shala Bhata intrusion wasn't a serious military operation. He claims trained soldiers wouldn't have occupied positions the mountain stream where ten of them were claimed killed. This, however, begs the question of why it took the army so long to clear the intrusion, and how the infiltrators escaped a cordon that was claimed to have closed in around them on all sides days ago. Line of Control incursions by jihadists don't routinely involve crack Pakistani forces: faced with the army, they retreat, hoping for success the same time. Fire contact has been made, hoping for success the next time. This time, they stayed on to fight — and kept it up for days. "Holding territory across the Line of Control crosses thick, red line", notes Chandigarh-based military analyst Mandeep Bajwa. "There is a plan underlying this". The thick red line was drawn with the blood of Indian soldiers in Kargil — and its been a decade since it was last breached. In July, 2002, a Sikh Light Infantry patrol was ambushed near Point 3260 — a peak so-named for its height in metres — as it headed out to Loonda Post, an unheld position north of the ongoing fighting on the Line of Control. Then commander of the 268 Brigade, sources familiar with decision-making at the time say, had warned of the post's vulnerability. He'd been told, though, not to station troops on the feature: with the Line of Control not yet fenced, large-scale jihadist infiltration underway, and full-scale war looming, it wasn't considered prudent to expend troops defending every vulnerable position. The XV corps responded with massive force to the Point 3260 intrusion, opening fire with FH-77B 155-millimeter howitzers on the intruders and the forces supporting them from across the Line of Control. In the face of a counter-bombardment which cost the lives of eleven soldiers from the Sikh Light Infantry and the Ladakh Scouts, Mi-17 helicopters flew in special forces. Finally, after a week of fighting, the Indian army asked for air support. Following an authorisation by Union Defence Minister George Fernandes, the 7 Squadron was tasked with destroying Pakistani fortifications. At 1.15 pm on 2 August, eight Mirage 2000 jets, commanded by Wing-Commander Rajesh Kumar, arrived over Point 3260 — and dropped four precision-guided bombs. Now, the red line drawn at Point 3260 has been erased at Shala Bhata. Burnt by Kargil, the National Democratic Alliance government was willing to risk war to make its point. Prime Minister Singh, Pakistan's army knows, won't reach for a howitzer if he can help it. From the time he took office, Prime Minister Singh has been persuaded that the costs of even a limited war will outweigh its likely benefits. Large-scale retaliation, his advisors argue, comes with unforseeable risks of escalation —unacceptable in a nuclear environment, and deeply damaging to the economy. It will, the argument goes, play into the hands of hawks in Pakistan's army, rallying the country's people behind them. It will allow the army to rebuild its fences with the jihadists it is now fighting in Pakistan's north-west. To avoid these outcomes, they argue, its well worth India absorbing a few body-blows. Yet, doing nothing has ended up giving Pakistan's army a free pass to ratchet up tensions — knowing there will be no price to pay. "India can't decide whether the Pakistan army will choose war or peace", says former Research and Analysis Wing chief Vikram Sood. "What we can do is make clear to them that the wrong decision will have serious costs they can't afford". "That's the message we're not sending".

Keran operation ends; now it's gunsmoke and unanswered questions | Firstpost

*************************************************

For the best part of ten years now, ensuring the Line of Control stayed peaceful was the keystone of the Prime Minister's Pakistan policy
This is the most uninformed statement that is doing the rounds to suit the Govt's agenda through its acolytes in the media.

The reason lies beyond that.

It is because the PPP was not as committed to the jihads as is Sharif, his father, and his brother Shan Nwaz, who used Punjab Govt funds to fund the terrorists. Every time Sharif has taken power, there has been a surge in terrorism.

The Anti Infiltration Obstacle System that is strung along most stretches of the border has impeded the transborder movement of terrorists. Further, it might be added that no obstacle system is failsaafe. It ha to be patrolled and kept under surveillance or else it can be surmounted.

In the current situation, as was when the patrol was killed on the LC, the troops were changing from one unit to another. The period of Relief of Troops in Contact is the most vulnerable period since those who are leaving are relieved of the tension and wanting to quit as soon as they can and those who are replacing are not fully conversant with the situation and the ways of operations done in that sector.

The fighting was sparked off, military sources say, when two observation positions on the Line of Control, code-named Khukri and Kullar, were briefly left unheld. Troops of the 3-3 Gurkha Regiment failed to replace their counterparts from the 20 Kumaon Regiment on time.
This is what I was stating above that the period Relief of Troops in Contact is is the most vulnerable of times.

However, if it is true that two observation positions on the Line of Control, code-named Khukri and Kullar, were briefly left unheld and troops of the 3/3 Gurkha Regiment failed to replace their counterparts from the 20 Kumaon Regiment on time, then it is a failure of command and even dereliction of duty.

However, the moot point is that if what Swami write is true. I somehow cannot believe it since it flouts the cardinal principles of Relief of Troops in Contact.

Such posts are manned, as also patrols, are undertaken jointly for some time, so that the incoming troops are familiarised with teh terrain, tasks and the enemy locations and the enemy's habits.

Under NO circumstances can any post, OP/LP, can be left unmanned for whatever be the reason.

The unit that is holding the posts are responsible for the conduct of the Relief in Contact, sine they are the ones who are familiar with the task and so on.

The 268 Brigade, as well as the adjoining 68 Brigade, began combing the mountains — but came up blank. Fresh infiltration efforts on the flanks of the Shala Bhata belt were blocked. Three terrorists were killed by the 17 Punjab regiment, some four kilometers away from Shala Bhata, and another two at Gujjardor. Four more by the 12 Garhwal along the Ratu Nar stream near Farkian. These bodies have been found — but the army's claims of success elide over the fact they were killed outside the Shala Bhata cordon, in unconnected counter-infiltration operations.........

This, however, begs the question of why it took the army so long to clear the intrusion, and how the infiltrators escaped a cordon that was claimed to have closed in around them on all sides days ago.
Again, if this be true, then it is most mysterious!

Prime Minister Singh, Pakistan's army knows, won't reach for a howitzer if he can help it.
This is the greatest inhibitor to any cogent operations against anything that happens on the LC or in any place!

If the Chief, Army Commander and the Corps Commander are talking in riddles, it is not because they are confused by matters military, it is that they are being confused by matters political that is being dictated from the Delhi Sultanate!

Even, Lt Gen (retd) JS Dhillon on a TV Debate was ballistic and that is the real mod that prevails......but to no avail.

From the time he took office, Prime Minister Singh has been persuaded that the costs of even a limited war will outweigh its likely benefits. Large-scale retaliation, his advisors argue, comes with unforseeable risks of escalation —unacceptable in a nuclear environment, and deeply damaging to the economy. It will, the argument goes, play into the hands of hawks in Pakistan's army, rallying the country's people behind them. It will allow the army to rebuild its fences with the jihadists it is now fighting in Pakistan's north-west. To avoid these outcomes, they argue, its well worth India absorbing a few body-blows. Yet, doing nothing has ended up giving Pakistan's army a free pass to ratchet up tensions — knowing there will be no price to pay. "India can't decide whether the Pakistan army will choose war or peace", says former Research and Analysis Wing chief Vikram Sood. "What we can do is make clear to them that the wrong decision will have serious costs they can't afford". "That's the message we're not sending".
Gen Roychowdhury in another TV Debate said that we must pay back Pakistan with our own jihadists.

Manii Shankar Aiyer, the great sage, insists on peace at all costs and dialogue moving. But the poor oaf, is not a soldier who has to die because the Nation finds him dispensable and mere gun fodder for high falutin morality that Aiier and his ilk desires, as they twiddle their thumbs in their air conditioned drawing rooms spewing mealy mouthed pious platitudes.

Mr PM and Mani Shankar, do stay a week in an OP and live like a soldier and then you will know the heartbreaks you cause with your empty words, which almost appears to be echoing the sentiments of those across the border!

and Mani Shankar if you yellow your pants, remember there is just one change of clothing and no dhobi out there! You will have to clean your own caca!
 
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sayareakd

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Better option then costly CLGM/Hellfire/Helina

[video=youtube_share;SNPJMk2fgJU]http://youtu.be/SNPJMk2fgJU[/video]
First it was for movie, second in mountains you will have issues in non line of sight.
 

Dinesh_Kumar

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its extreme foolishness on part of Indian Army that such incident took place.Many warnings were already seen in the media. I dont blame any other players, neither the Babus - Netas, nor the Pakis themselves. It was the IA's Duty and responsibility, for which they were adequately equipped and armed, and that sector was next to an old enemy who had already attacked us a number of times. In the face of this, after 66 years, if we still bungle up and take casualities, for no reason, then it is a cock up of highest magnitude. I hope release of Arty assets from HQ is in hands of local commanders, who need it the most, not some Pasha sitting in Delhi, who doesnt care a damn about some border thing he cant find on a map !
 

sayareakd

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How the hell they allowed this to happen in first place? It appears that standard operating procedure was not followed. When one unit give charge to other, they should be extra careful.
 

Ray

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its extreme foolishness on part of Indian Army that such incident took place.Many warnings were already seen in the media. I dont blame any other players, neither the Babus - Netas, nor the Pakis themselves. It was the IA's Duty and responsibility, for which they were adequately equipped and armed, and that sector was next to an old enemy who had already attacked us a number of times. In the face of this, after 66 years, if we still bungle up and take casualities, for no reason, then it is a cock up of highest magnitude. I hope release of Arty assets from HQ is in hands of local commanders, who need it the most, not some Pasha sitting in Delhi, who doesnt care a damn about some border thing he cant find on a map !
While I am not absolving the Army from blame, yet, it must be remembered that it is not an independent entity beyond the constraints of the Govt policies and outlook.

If the military was independent and acted as per military requirements beyond the Govt's policies, ethos and outlook, would it have not used the IAF in 1962 when the PLAAF was in no position to match?

Further, have you forgotten that though the Army wanted the IAF to act in the Kargil war, it could not be drawn in without the Govt approving the same?

Now, when the PM is hell bent on peace talks with Nawaz Sharif, without any concern of the beheading of the solider or killing of the 5 soldiers, when it should have inflamed him, as it did the whole Nation, what is the message that is being sent to the rank and file of the military? Get aggressive and go for the jugular?

Who is to set the mood of the Nation? The military or the Govt?

Now, if the Govt is staffed by women (as is said in the English language and no offence to women), then those who are instruments of the Govt also become women!
 

Ray

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How the hell they allowed this to happen in first place? It appears that standard operating procedure was not followed. When one unit give charge to other, they should be extra careful.

Appears so, if Swami's article is to be believed.
 

Ray

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An ambitious ploy in the heights
14 hours ago , By Syed Ata Hasnain

The Keran episode shows that the jihadists are desperate to keep the Valley on the boil until they can give it their full attention after international troops withdraw from Afghanistan in 2014
The incidents at Keran have been dubbed as "Kargil II" by the media and the perceived delay by the Indian Army in pushing back the intrusions led to many screaming headlines. But there is no need to go hyper. This was never Kargil II. Kargil had strategic importance because of the Leh-Srinagar Highway and the link with Siachen. The Keran/Shalabatu episode was a clever ploy to push the maximum number of terrorists into the Valley. This is not the first time that Shalabatu has been used for infiltration or concentration.

Largely patrolled

First, let us understand the ground. The road links to this area are poorly developed because of the terrain and its remoteness. Keran is a generic name being attached to the area because that is the closest tehsil headquarters. In between Shalabatu and Keran is a huge mountain ridge. It is a desolate area that falls between the North Shamshabari range and the Kishanganga (Neelam to the Pakistanis) river. It is so heavily forested that it is not possible to hold the Line of Control (LoC) in this area without deploying a disproportionate number of troops. The fence runs on the North face of the Shamshabari Range approximately two to three kilometres inward from the LoC. The area ahead of the fence has a few posts, but it is mostly dominated by patrolling. The treacherous terrain and forest cover make it easy for terrorists to sneak up to the vicinity of the fence and seek their opportunity. The area on the other side is also not very strongly held by the Pakistan Army. However, stray minefields exist, the jihadi's occupational hazard.

An assessment

What is the Pakistan Army attempting? Very simply, it has done an appreciation of the troops available to the Indian Army's 15 Corps and can assess just how many troops we can spare to carry out eviction operations. The first reaction on the Indian side has to be from troops in flanking locations — areas where the Pakistan Army has not been too successful in infiltration in the last couple of years. These areas give immediate access to the dense Rajwar/Hafruda forest and Lolab Valley that hug the southern slopes of the Shamshabari and are the favourite haunts of the terrorists with sufficient support and caches/hideouts.

What would any Pakistani general do once he makes no headway in traditional areas? He tries to create space there by diverting attention and forcing redeployment of the adversary, in this case the Indian Army. He chooses a point of contact to concentrate upon and reviews the terrain to ascertain if it gives him any advantage. Any military brain can assess that the point of contact should be Shalabatu. Further east in the Machhel area, there is simply no cover, at least not for a sizeable conventional aided terrorist intrusion.

The area roughly between Jumagund Nar and Shalabatu Nar (a Nar is a nullah) is the broad swathe of territory which the Pakistan Army has targeted knowing that it will take some time for it to be discovered. Once discovered, it is not easy to manoeuvre through the jungle and fight a pitched battle. Therefore, more troops have to be called in if the counter infiltration grid on the fence is not to be diluted. This will force the use of troops deployed on the flanks at least for some time thus opening up gaps. Notice the operation near Fateh Gali (25 km south west of Shalabatu) where four terrorists were gunned down by a flanking unit of the same brigade. The infiltrators were simply working to plan. Then came Gujardur, on the north western flank. The discovery of a large cache of weapons along with a huge haul of other warlike stores proves that this was the route to be exploited. The vigil of the Indian Army, being what it is, the plan was stymied.

Why was the Army taking so long? No answers are required. It proceeded professionally and ensure minimum losses. It had to build up strength from the hinterland; roads and tracks here are scarce. Since there were no strategic or operational level losses the Indian Army could use caution and take its time. The Pakistan Army could ill-afford to conventionally build up on such an intrusion because the territory is south of the Kishanganga river and offers little manoeuvring space. Conventional armies hate fighting with a water obstacle right behind them. It also knows that its other major vulnerability, the Neelam (as the Kishanganga is known in Pakistan) Valley Road is under total domination of the Indian Army. That is the road which feeds this area. Even in the worst case scenario, the Indian Army can cut off this road with fire, the painfully long bypasses notwithstanding.

Strategic issue

All these are tactical issues. The larger strategic issue is that Pakistan is worried about the Valley. The strength/boots on the ground are insufficient to run an effective Azadi programme. Even if they want to inspire street protests and demonstrations it needs the skills of more than a handful of terrorist leaders. The pot has to be kept boiling. More terrorists are required because without that the movement may be in its dying days. Desperation to a large extent is responsible for the current intrusion into Keran, which could have been used as a base for further infiltration had it not been discovered. Everything is aimed at 2014-15, when international troops withdraw from International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), and jihadists can turn their attention once again to the Valley.

For the strategic analyst this becomes one more event in the long trail of the Pakistan Army's "conflict initiation." It was bound to end as all such events have with "conflict termination" by India. It is good to see public interest at a high but the daily media dose should be informed, without recourse to shrill demands on the Army. Uninformed speculation only aids Pakistani adventurism. The Army knows what it is doing and is doing it well.

(Lt. General Syed Ata Hasnain is a former Corps Commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps.)

An ambitious ploy in the heights - The Hindu: Mobile Edition

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I am reproducing Yusuf's article since all should read it.
 

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