Pak army repeats Kargil in Keran

jmj_overlord

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@bennedose

If we had drones with SAR or other Optical/Thermal/IR equipment we could've have easily spotted them. Something like a Predator would've even taken them out via hellfire missiles.
yes we definitely need some thermal and ir equipments in our inventory and also some ucav. But using ucav in a situation where use of attack helicopters have been restricted might not yield the results....will it ?
 
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Singh

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yes we definitely need some thermal and ir equipments in our inventory and also some ucav. But using ucav in a situation where use of attack helicopters have been restricted might not yield the results....will it ?
Use of UCAV is more advantageous in areas near the border, because in case of engagement Drones can be sacrificed but loss of Attack Choppers would be far more. Also we can easily blame weather or software glitches for drones crossing over the no-fly zone.

And Pakistan declaring UCAV attacks as Casus Belli would be extremely ironical.
 

davidbenjamin

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from the news article "Keran operation ends; now it's gunsmoke and unanswered questions "

was there an LGB bombing in Aug 2002 ? I seem to have no knowledge of this.
 

sayareakd

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Use of UCAV is more advantageous in areas near the border, because in case of engagement Drones can be sacrificed but loss of Attack Choppers would be far more. Also we can easily blame weather or software glitches for drones crossing over the no-fly zone.

And Pakistan declaring UCAV attacks as Casus Belli would be extremely ironical.
UAV with CLGM laser painting device (made by TATA now) would have been extremely useful with CLGM. They would have run like animal to save themselves from CLGM.
 

Singh

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Operation in Keran ends; now it's gunsmoke and unanswered questions


Its finished: the fighting in the mountains around a ghost village the general said didn't exist, against invisible enemies who've melted back across the Line of Control, leaving just a haze of smoke and questions hanging in the air.- Earlier today, the Indian army announced that it was calling off the search for Pakistani intruders in the mountains around Shala Bhata, exhibiting weapons and combat equipment recovered during searches.- There's no word, though, on who the intruders were, why they came, and why it took so long to get them out.


For the best part of ten years now, ensuring the Line of Control stayed peaceful was the keystone of the Prime Minister's Pakistan policy — an objective maintained even the cost of absorbing body-blows, from 26/11 to the killing of Indian soldiers in cross-border raids. Representational image. Shahid Tantray/Firstpost In the mountains around Shala Bhata, the fighting has ended — but the policy is facing its moment of truth.


No full account of just what happened at Shala Bhata has emerged in the week since Firstpost broke news of the intrusions. But intelligence and army sources have given some insights into the most serious fighting on the Line of Control in a decade. The fighting was sparked off, military sources say, when two observation positions on the Line of Control, code-named Khukri and Kullar, were briefly left unheld.- Troops of the 3-3 Gurkha Regiment failed to replace their counterparts from the 20 Kumaon Regiment on time, for reasons that still aren't clear. Troops who later headed towards the posts, which dominate Pakistan's own forward positions around Shala Bhata, were then fired on by Pakistani positions from across the Line of Control.


The army denies these posts are occupied by Pakistani troops — a claim which seems accurate.- It has been equivocal, though, on the question of whether the positions were left unheld, and, if so, when they were reoccupied. Major-General Bobby Matthew, Additional Director-General for Public Information at Army Headquarters, did not respond to a text message seeking comment.


Even as firing at Kullar and Khukri gathered momentum, meanwhile, Pakistan launched intrusions across the Line of Control, perhaps seeking to target Indian troops moving towards the Line of Control.- XV corps commander Gurmit Singh had said on 27 September-that drone imagery established that ten to twelve intruders had been killed by his troops.- Their bodies, though, are no longer there, showing the cordon the 268 Brigade had thrown around Shala Bhata wasn't able to choke off Pakistani resupply and evacuation lines.



"Let's assume it took just two men to carry away each of the twelve bodies", a military officer says. "That means Pakistan was able to push at least 24 personnel across the Line of Control, and get their bodies back without Indian troops being able to retaliate or block their progress".


The 268 Brigade, as well as the adjoining 68 Brigade, began combing the mountains — but came up blank.- Fresh infiltration efforts on the flanks of the Shala Bhata belt were blocked. Three terrorists were killed by the 17 Punjab regiment, some four kilometers away from Shala Bhata, and another two at Gujjardor. Four more by the 12 Garhwal along the Ratu Nar stream near Farkian.- These bodies have been found — but the army's claims of success elide over the fact they were killed outside the Shala Bhata cordon, in unconnected counter-infiltration operations


Heat, but little light, has been shed by senior military commanders.- In remarks to journalists on Tuesday, Lieutenant-General Singh described the Shala Bhata skirmish as a "desperate infiltration bid", rather than an intrusion.- He had earlier said, though, that Pakistani special forces personnel were involved. General Bikram Singh, the chief of army staff, insists the Shala Bhata intrusion wasn't a serious military operation.- He claims trained soldiers wouldn't have occupied positions the mountain stream where ten of them were claimed killed.- This, however, begs the question of why it took the army so long to clear the intrusion, and how the infiltrators escaped a cordon that was claimed to have closed in around them on all sides days ago.

Line of Control incursions by jihadists don't routinely involve crack Pakistani forces: faced with the army, they retreat, hoping for success the same time. Fire contact has been made, hoping for success the next time.- This time, they stayed on to fight — and kept it up for days

"Holding territory across the Line of Control crosses thick, red line", notes Chandigarh-based military analyst Mandeep Bajwa. "There is a plan underlying this".

he thick red line was drawn with the blood of Indian soldiers in Kargil — and its been a decade since it was last breached. In July, 2002, a Sikh Light Infantry patrol was ambushed near Point 3260 — a peak so-named for its height in metres — as it headed out to Loonda Post, an unheld position north of the ongoing fighting on the Line of Control.- Then commander of the 268 Brigade, sources familiar with decision-making at the time say, had warned of the post's vulnerability.- He'd been told, though, not to station troops on the feature: with the Line of Control not yet fenced, large-scale jihadist infiltration underway, and full-scale war looming, it wasn't considered prudent to expend troops defending every vulnerable position.

The XV corps responded with massive force to the Point 3260 intrusion, opening fire with FH-77B 155-millimeter howitzers on the intruders and the forces supporting them from across the Line of Control. In the face of a counter-bombardment which cost the lives of eleven soldiers from the Sikh Light Infantry and the Ladakh Scouts, Mi-17 helicopters flew in special forces.

Finally, after a week of fighting, the Indian army asked for air support.- Following an authorisation by Union Defence Minister George Fernandes, the 7 Squadron was tasked with destroying Pakistani fortifications.- At 1.15 pm on 2 August, eight Mirage 2000 jets, commanded by Wing-Commander Rajesh Kumar, arrived over Point 3260 — and dropped four precision-guided bombs.

Now, the red line drawn at Point 3260 has been erased at Shala Bhata. Burnt by Kargil, the National Democratic Alliance government was willing to risk war to make its point.- Prime Minister Singh, Pakistan's army knows, won't reach for a howitzer if he can help it.


From the time he took office, Prime Minister Singh has been persuaded that the costs of even a limited war will outweigh its likely benefits. Large-scale retaliation, his advisors argue, comes with unforseeable risks of escalation —unacceptable in a nuclear environment, and deeply damaging to the economy.- It will, the argument goes, play into the hands of hawks in Pakistan's army, rallying the country's people behind them.- It will allow the army to rebuild its fences with the jihadists it is now fighting in Pakistan's north-west. To avoid these outcomes, they argue, its well worth India absorbing a few body-blows.

Yet, doing nothing has ended up giving Pakistan's army a free pass to ratchet up tensions — knowing there will be no price to pay. "India can't decide whether the Pakistan army will choose war or peace", says former Research and Analysis Wing chief Vikram Sood. "What we can do is make clear to them that the wrong decision will have serious costs they can't afford". "That's the message we're not sending".-

Read more at:-http://www.firstpost.com/india/operation-in-keran-ends-now-its-gunsmoke-and-unanswered-questions-1159751.html?utm_source=ref_article

Thanks to @PMdavidbenjamin for pointing out the link
Praveen Swami is possibly the most informed official (at one time he had more info then some bosses of intel agencies, because he was the go-between various agencies)
 

sayareakd

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UAV with CLGM laser painting device (made by TATA now) would have been extremely useful with CLGM. They would have run like animal to save themselves from CLGM.
here find the info and other details




The MOSP 3000 is the most advanced version of IAI's well known MOSP family of midsize observation and targeting payloads.


[B]MOSP (MULTI MISSION OPTRONIC STABILIZED PAYLOAD) FAMILY[/B]
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/0/36190.jpg
MOSP 3000 encompasses the latest technologies in gimbal and sensor design:
Single LRU concept, lower weight, improved stabilization, full digital control, advanced image processing and state-of-the-art digital format sensors.

MOSP 3000 is optimized for laser designation from airborne, land or maritime platforms featuring internal automatic boresight for all sensors.

The MOSP 3000 design is based on a single LRU, 4 gimbals, stabilized platform. The Sensor package can be equipped with a variety of TV and IR sensors and laser pointer, laser range finder and laser designator, optimized for customer missions.

MOSP 3000 has a unique video image enhancement that significantly improves observation ranges.
The Payload's Line Of Sight can be controlled manually, by auto-track, slaving, or by scanning modes.
http://www.iai.co.il/36254-44449-en/EUROSATORY_2012_Products_EO.aspx?btl=1
 

Kunal Biswas

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Never, No one would ever want his buddy to risk his life to play some shoot out game ..

Kuddos to brave solider and field commanders for their outstanding preform-ace ..

Exactly why I said that this must be a pre-planned action by IA to give some target practice to our soldiers. And to that end, we have been highly successful given that there are 0 casualties on our side. @Kunal Biswas,
 
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Singh

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Exactly why I said that this must be a pre-planned action by IA to give some target practice to our soldiers. And to that end, we have been highly successful given that there are 0 casualties on our side.
@Kunal Biswas, @Ray, @Decklander @pmaitra, @sayareakd
Lets not live in a dream world. This was an unpardonable act.

Also urgent need to have a more robust mechanism of communication between Air Force and Army. Rivalry over assets plays havoc with national security. If need be depute some of Air Force's Assets under Permanent Army Command.

We have known for months that Pak is desperate, and now they send their special forces to engage and hold. A rubicon was crossed and its retaliation is a must.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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There are many people arguing why was no IAF there ?? I am asking where was Army Aviation ?

One Rudra is inducted already & One Rudra is more than capable of 10 UACV in this operation, Why it was not deployed ?

Something needed to be answered at higher brass ..



UAV with CLGM laser painting device (made by TATA now) would have been extremely useful with CLGM. They would have run like animal to save themselves from CLGM.
 

sayareakd

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There are many people arguing why was no IAF there ?? I am asking where was Army Aviation ?

One Rudra is inducted already & One Rudra is more than capable of 10 UACV in this operation, Why it was not deployed ?

Something needed to be answered at higher brass ..

Kunal sir we dont want to lose our aircraft/helicopter to manpod or from anti aircraft fire from Pakistanis, as they must have been ready for it, so UAV is next best thing to identify them and take out using CLGM.
 
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happy

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Never, No one would ever want his buddy to risk his life to play some shoot out game ..

Kuddos to brave solider and field commanders for their outstanding preform-ace ..
Nobody wants to risk life. But why was this security lapse? Suggests that we are becoming complacent???

Who can and will answer this question?????
 

happy

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Lets not live in a dream world. This was an unpardonable act.

Also urgent need to have a more robust mechanism of communication between Air Force and Army. Rivalry over assets plays havoc with national security. If need be depute some of Air Force's Assets under Permanent Army Command.

We have known for months that Pak is desperate, and now they send their special forces to engage and hold. A rubicon was crossed and its retaliation is a must.
Though we dont want to be day dreaming, seems that our govt is certainly in dream mode. Or else we would have certainly launched special missions to destroy terrorist camps or atleast refrained from trying to show the world that all is well between india and pak.

Even now, our chicken heads are saying there is no hand of pak in all this.....my foot.
 

happy

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BTW, none of the experts are interested in discussing conspiracy theories .................

Is that a motto here i.e., in DFI or do we dont want to reveal our tactics ????

Just wondering :rolleyes: :namaste:

Maybe, pm if you dont want to say that here.
 

Ray

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Exactly why I said that this must be a pre-planned action by IA to give some target practice to our soldiers. And to that end, we have been highly successful given that there are 0 casualties on our side.
@Kunal Biswas, @Ray, @Decklander @pmaitra, @sayareakd
You should have seen the CCN INN prime time debate.

Gen Roychowdhury, who is a very careful speaker, openly said that the Army is fed up.

Rebutting Mani Shankar Aiyer who asked Chandan Mitra if a 'strong response' meant sending terrorists in Pakistan was what Mitra meant.

Actually, if I were to be in the Debate, I would have asked him, if this PM and Govt had the guts to do so, when in actuality they shake hands with N Sharif while the soldiers get shot.

Gen Roychowdhury, who is very careful in choosing his words and thoughts, for the first time, showed his disgust by stating that the Army was fed up and India should reply Pakistan with the same medicine that it was administering to us!
 
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Ray

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BTW, none of the experts are interested in discussing conspiracy theories .................

Is that a motto here i.e., in DFI or do we dont want to reveal our tactics ????

Just wondering :rolleyes: :namaste:

Maybe, pm if you dont want to say that here.
The issue is do we know the tactics or are we speculating and venting our ire without the wherewithal of the parameters that are governing?
 

happy

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The issue is do we know the tactics or are we speculating and venting our ire without the wherewithal of the parameters that are governing?
Well, you guys are the experts......I am just speculating.
 

Yusuf

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My take on my blog http://sarvatravijay.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/preventingfighting-more-kerans/

As India the Indian PM shook hands with his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharief, Pakistani army along with its sponsored and trained terrorists numbering between 30-40 with supporting fire from across the LC infiltrated into the Keran sector.

It took fifteen days for the Indian Army to clear the area and restore the sanctity of the LC in an area which has thick forests, nallahs at considerable heights.

The Army Chief Bikram Singh has clearly said that this infiltration will certainly not be the last and in fact will only increase. He also said this cannot happen without Pakistan's support.

While reasons for how the infiltration happened will be found, how to prevent and fight such infiltration along with the necessary mandate to local commanders will have to formulated.

The infiltration happened in what is being termed as a ghost town. Its not possible for Indian Army to cover every inch of the LC. India has over the years employed electronic surveillance on the LC imported from Israel. It doesn't seem enough. India will need more hands on approach and that is employing armed drones or UCAVs. The US has used it to a telling effect in taking out terrorists in Pakistan but in India's case, it will have to be in a 24/7 surveillance cum attack mode. Use them to look for any infiltration or attempted infiltration and use the missiles on board to take out the infiltrators, even if it means firing across the LC. Large number of these UCAVs will be required. The cost involved in deploying them will be quite small considering the men and material required in combing operations and the potential loss of territory because the terrain in most areas are treacherous. Pakistan still holds some peaks in Kargil after the war that Indian Army didn't consider strategically important enough to lose men over its capture. So its important that India deploys armed drones or UCAVs along with other electronic surveillance and the men that we deploy to guard the LC.

But then the LC still may not be completely un-impregnable. Indian Army has years of counter insurgency experience. But lacks critical equipment to fight the terrorists. Its only on the sheer courage and bravery of its soldiers that it wins the battles. During the operations in Keran, six soldiers were injured. One of them was hit in the abdomen. Now this area of the body should be protected by a bullet proof jacket. If he was wearing one,the quality of the BPJ comes into question, if he wasn't wearing one,why is the question. India Army for years has battled to get equipment for itself to equip its soldiers with life saving bullet proof jackets but is still short. It does not even have a good standard issue of helmet to protect the head. These are basic safety equipments.

An equipment which is a must is a night vision devise (NVD). Another solider injured in the Keran sector said they were firing in the dark. Why should that be the case. Having NVDs will be a huge force multiplier especially because the terrain is so bad where night time would be a good time to go after the terrorists looking to hide till day time. Every soldier in a Keran type op should have an NVD.

Employment of thermal imaging cameras will be a clincher. We have already seen some footage on media where Indian Army has employed such cameras and used it to telling effect in killing terrorists trying to infiltrate. But these will be even more handy in a Keran type operation to hunt and kill infiltrators.

A weapon system that will be very handy in these type operations is the Javelin missile. Originally an anti tank weapon, it has been used to good effect by the US troops against Taliban in Afghanistan. It can be used to take out temporary bunkers, small houses where terrorists hide and also used in urban environment where terrorists are holed up in houses which can be taken out without much collateral. It can be used to take out enemy posts providing supporting fire to infiltrators from across the LC. India has been dithering on the co-development and co-production option for these missiles with the US. We could buy some off the shelf for immediate deployment.

The above mentioned is not something the Indian Army doesn't know about. My submission here is that if there is a constraint to provide each and every soldier with such equipment, the Indian Army may have to ready a crack team of anti infiltration commandos equipped with all such devices who can be air dropped into the infiltrated zone while the outer perimeter is secured by other soldiers in Keran type infiltration which could be a repeated offence by Pakistan along different areas of the LC.

We are going to face tough times over the next year and beyond as terrorists free from Afghan war make their way towards India. We will have to come up with new assessments and new doctrines on how secure our country from Keran like infiltration and to make sure those terrorists who do make it across to our side of the LC, don't go back alive or make it out from our cordon and do this with minimum to no loss of lives of our own troops. Which means greater emphasis on using technology and making sure every soldier going into harms way has a great chance of making it alive.
 

Yusuf

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UCAVs preferred as its low cost, low chance of drastic escalation at the same time precise weapons system to fight these Pakis trying to infiltrate. Keeps chopper pilots out of harms way too as Pakis would be coming in with MANPADS. And they will have a whole lot of them from Afghan war.
 

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Will the pmo also mea say and do anything next. If something (intrusion) like this happens on north and eastern front around October 20 PRC visit by pm what will go through everyone's mind.
 

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