Out of that damned spot

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by illusion8, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. illusion8

    illusion8 Regular Member

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    There are some things that are true and will always remain true. One truth is that you cannot create a modern, secular society from a primitive theocracy, controlled by tribal leaders and war lords, infested with corrupt politicians and drug-trafficking thugs. Add to this toxic misery a violent populace of desperately poor, uneducated, hysterics.

    There is no Aristotelian syllogism necessary to prove that Afghanistan is not worthy of any more American lives. The country, if it can truly be called a country, rather more a geographic space lost to time and evolution as the more appropriate description of Afghanistan.

    We engaged in Afghanistan to rid ourselves of al-Qaida and the Taliban. Al-Qaida has left Afghanistan because, despite all else, al-Qaida is not a collection of dumb people. They are vicious, treacherous, thuggish, vile things, but are not dumb.

    Al-Qaida left and went on to someplace where we are not. The Obama administration must realize they are gone. They went to Pakistan maybe, Somalia maybe, the Sudan maybe, Iraq maybe, Iran maybe.

    Wherever they are, they are not in Afghanistan. That much we know, or clearly should know, but might not because we have an intelligence community that could not find al-Qaida with both hands in a hall of mirrors at high noon if al-Qieda were their distended derrieres. And we pay these people good money.

    The only thing we are in Afghanistan for now is to decimate the Taliban.

    The Taliban remain in distant provinces in formidable defensive positions. We would suffer unacceptable causalities in any attempt to dislodge them, so we cannot and will not make that attempt.

    The Taliban will do what the Iranian-sponsored Shiite government in Iraq did. They will lay low, avoid confrontation until we leave, then resurface to take control.

    We tried to pave the whole of Afghanistan with the veneer of our civilization and political culture, expanding billions of dollars to train the Afghan police and military and we have failed.

    We are absurdly fearful that the Afghan military and police may turn the weapons we supplied them against us even now.

    The huge amount of money we have sent to Afghanistan to do these things has largely ended up in the off-shore accounts of its political leadership and their families. The Afghan drug lords have seen their share of the world market for heroin increase tenfold while we vainly attempted to suppress the cultivation of the poppy.

    The American defense contractors, and the politicians who lobby for them, have made an astonishing amount of money from this war. They are quite content that we stay in Afghanistan.

    The whole of that country is now aflame, first over the desecration of the Koran, now the massacre of 16 civilians, allegedly by an American soldier. The people are doing great violence to Americans who have gone to the place, and risked their lives by going to that place, for their benefit. They have not the courage to see it that way.

    They will always regard us as infidels anxious to betray Islam at any opportunity. That belief is fully nurtured by the Taliban and is the most effective weapon the Taliban possess.

    This absurdity will never end. We will always stumble into some act to offend, no matter how well-intentioned or how unselfish the Americans who go to Afghanistan may be.

    The Taliban are an intuitive part of Afghan society and culture. Like a piece of the genetic code implanted after centuries of blind immersion to the faith. The Taliban seemingly emerge from the Afghan people's genetic blueprint. As much an anticipated growth as is any other physical property of their body's or mind's, it is manifest in their physiological being.

    Islam promises the Afghan people the bliss of paradise, after the pain, tedium and endless drudgery of their life on Earth. Life for most Afghans is certainly drudgery. They are impoverished, uneducated, made to suffer all manner of indignities and virtually enslaved to the elite of their society. Who among them would not grasp at any hope?

    Islam is that single, in fact only, hope.

    Islam in Afghanistan is the absolutism of religion intertwined with the state. Islam is impossible to hold to in a secular democratic society. There is not an example of a society anywhere, at any time, where intellectual and individual discovery is permitted when Islam, in its fundamental form, prevails without conflict. It simply cannot be.

    We cannot think to win in Afghanistan. We cannot even hope to survive in Afghanistan.

    --

    (Morgan Strong is a former professor of Middle Eastern history and was an adviser to CBS News' "60 Minutes" on the Middle East.)

    Outside View: 'Out of that damned spot' - UPI.com

    The Americans are fed up and want to quit, so primarily what happens to Afg after they leave? and secondarily what happens to India's investments and future with Afg? I think re- talibanisation is inevitable. We can cut short our investments right now or hope that the US/NATO carries on in this fashion- frankly they are looking in the wrong place, the Taliban/ AQ/ all the terrorist scum are based out of Pakistan. To resurrect Afg u need to get rid of the source and thats PK.
     
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  3. illusion8

    illusion8 Regular Member

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    No change to Afghan 2013 security control aim: Germany

    Germany's defence minister said Thursday he did not believe Afghanistan's call to take over control of the nation's security in 2013 rather than 2014 signified a change of direction.

    "Afghan President Hamid Karzai is calling for something that is already planned anyway," Thomas de Maiziere told AFP.

    He said the plan was already for the handing over of responsibility for security in all provinces to be completed by the middle of 2013.

    "Part of this handing-over process is however also to continue looking for a further 12 to 18 months whether this handing-over process is sustainable, is working," De Maiziere said.

    So it was correct both to say the process would be completed in 2013, as well as to say the mission would continue until 2014, he added.

    But he warned against stressing different parts of the same strategy in order to send a certain message.

    "The method (of) 'I have a message for domestic policy' and 'I have a message for the international community', that'll go wrong," he said.

    With tensions high after a US soldier killed 16 villagers in a rampage on Sunday, Karzai called Thursday for a transition of the nation's security from NATO control to the Afghan government in 2013 rather than the previous deadline of 2014, after a meeting with visiting US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta.

    Germany is the third biggest supplier of troops to the 130,000-strong NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) after the United States and Britain.

    It had 4,900 soldiers in Afghanistan as of February 1, but a further 500 are set to be withdrawn by 2013 before the complete pullout.
     
  4. illusion8

    illusion8 Regular Member

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    NATO vows to stick to Afghan plan despite Karzai

    NATO vowed Thursday to stick to its plan to finish handing Afghans control of security nationwide by the end of 2014 after the Afghan president called for the switch to be completed a year earlier.

    With tensions high after a US soldier killed 16 villagers in a rampage on Sunday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai demanded US troops leave villages and that NATO wrap up the transition in 2013 instead of 2014.

    NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said the transition, which started last year, was "making progress" and that allies would "map out how we intend to complete the transition process successfully and responsibly" at a May summit in Chicago.

    Lungescu said the alliance remains committed to enabling Afghan forces to take "full responsibility for security as soon as practically possible" without specifying a year.

    But she later sent a revised statement adding that the process would take place "according to the timelines established in Lisbon."

    NATO leaders agreed at a summit in Lisbon in November 2010 to gradually handover control to the Afghans with the aim of completing the transition by the end of 2014.

    "That is why we are working hard to train and develop a professional, capable and sustainable ANSF (Afghan national security force)," Lungescu said.
     
  5. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The problem here is not that Taliban are some inherent genetic code of Afghan society.

    Afghanistan at one time was very progressive. Might a remind the author that the first Muslim to go into space was from Afghanistan who was part of the Soviet space program. The 60s-70s show how progressive the Afghan society was becoming.

    Thanks to the Soviet invasion and then the massive influx of Jihadi propaganda material and brainwashing of their kids to fight a "Jihad" (with literature funded and created by the US among others) after 30 years we have anomalies like the Taliban.

    On top of that we have teenage American soldiers who have been fighting for 10 years and particularly with a mentality where killing Afghan civilians and peeing on them among other actions is becoming acceptable. So obviously now even Afghans who wanted to help the Americans will be revolved by them.

    The 2001-2004 period was the golden era where even the Taliban were willing to surrender and negotiate with the new Afghan govt. and the US. The Bush govt. instead went into Iraq and wasted a crucial opportunity that is now coming back to haunt them. THIS is the failure that is now cascading to the failures in Afghanistan that we see today.

    The solution is definitely that US will need to get its troops out of Afghanistan. Other than that, it should forget the idea of keeping bases post withdrawal now. And partner with India, Russia and NATO to fund Afghan security forces continuously and consistently.
     
  6. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    ^^ Nightclubs, and girls in miniskirts were a common sight in Afghanistan in the 60s
     
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  7. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Send them all into space. :)
     
  8. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    I believe obama scrapped nasa's budget and instead rely on the russians to send astraunaunts to the international space station.
     
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  9. illusion8

    illusion8 Regular Member

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    can the NA hold up against the afghan taliban? the afg taliban will be getting immense support from Pk.

    root cause is Pakistan which if neutralised or pushed into chaos or anarchy will effectively reduce its backing of the taliban taking over afg. my views are a bit extreme but Pakistan is an extremist country and needs drastic steps.

    after NATO withdrawal there will b wide spread killings and bombings in Afg and a civil war will ensure thousands of deaths.

    afg will become a talibanized counntry and Pk will gain control. Pakistan will boast how it previously defeated the soviet union and now the US single handedly. all infra pojects, schools, hospitals, roads, electricity, water, railroads will be taken over by the taliban.
    one thing is for sure there will be thousands of deaths, Pakistan will be the cause of it.

    only way to prevent this from happening is to make thier action very costly and damaging to Pk itself and they should rue this.
     
  10. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Pakis cant boast about anything because we have whipped there ass everytime. And the next time they get whipped will also be the time they get whiped out from the map.

    We should arm the afghan govt and army to the teeth. Some sort of air support would also be beneficial. A dozen of our old migs could go a long way in afghanistan. How will taliban counter it ? unless pakis themselves use there planes in which case we can also come out directly.
     
  11. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The US cannot leave the " damn spot" till the mess is cleared. They cannot leave because they have lost the appetite or don't have money. The last time tet led Astan all of a sudden without clearing the mess, they got 9/11. Next time they might see a mushroom cloud over New York. The real problem (read Pakistan) has I be resolved. The longer get are NOT confronted, the worse the feel of being in a "damned spot" will get.
     
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  12. illusion8

    illusion8 Regular Member

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    I totally agree, but it doesn't to quite occur to them that they have been looking in the wrong place all along, India's been shouting from the roof tops that the problem is Pakistan and seems its just now that it has dawned on them that they wasted 11 years being led all over the place by the wily Pakistanis both losing men and material and in turn giving billions to Pakistan. Now the Pakistanis act as victims when they are the real perpetrators.
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The Americans came to Afghanistan with some neo-missionary zeal to save them from themselves?

    Or was it for some strategic requirement?

    As they came to Iraq for.
     
  14. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    That "damned spot" is also a geopolitical hot spot that has been the object of contention of great powers for the past two centuries. America did not come charging in blindly, nor will it leave without achieving what it set out to achieve.
     

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