OROP: Pension promise in peril?

Mad Indian

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I am sorry if I offended you guys, but IMO, army can be pampered with all they want. I

Army, Police, Judiciary are the most important responsibilites of the govt. Their needs come before everything else a govt can do. If we cant spare 10k crores for our armed forces, we dont deserve the stupid title "superpower"
 

ezsasa

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I am curious. Wasn't armed forces service rules clearly defined regarding pension? Also, service rules can be changed. Heck, it is changed frequently and with a notification. Or have you forgotten the raising age of retirement by 2 years? And, doubt me not, if they see the implications and life time loss, they will ask and actually can bring the whole nation to standstill by consecutive strikes. There hasn't been serious attack on Govt. employees interests in recent times and therefore, the govt. might have forgotten the implications what Govt. employees' strikes can do. It at the least will harm the nation's image and at the most hurt the economy, social welfare to administration, and more.
As far as OROP is concerned, like I said before an Anomaly was created in service rules in the past. This is being corrected now. Will need to do some digging to find the anomaly.

Like I said some unions will try to raise this issue, but they may not get anything. If there are genuine pre-existing issues, civilian govt employees have various means get it resolved and they will get those as and when resolved.

Don't talk as if there is nobody in between employees and govt. issues raised will be dealt with, your version of events will occur only if failures occur at multiple levels which is unlikely.

OROP is a exception, this issue still exists because of misplaced priorities of previous govt.
 

jackprince

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@jackprince

I cant believe how you compared armed forces and their veterans with this filth? http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/rs-20-crores-found-in-govt-employee-s-house.69395/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-lens-in-copter-scam/articleshow/46591030.cms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjali_Gupta

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...officer-in-honey-trap/articleshow/5791038.cms

Every organisation has its share of filth, some less and some more. There are more mud to throw on the face of Armed forces, which I don't do as I abhor as several members here would gloat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyendra_Dubey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamlesh_Kumari

http://www.ndtv.com/bangalore-news/...rom-sand-mafia-found-dead-in-bengaluru-747123

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohan_Chand_Sharma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tukaram_Omble

The above are the civilian govt. employee and there are hundreds of thousands like them. Why do you think India hasn't become a second Pakistan? In which regard are they less deserving than an army officer/personnel? You cannot pick and choose the best to compare with the worst.

Btw, there are rumors that MES(Military Engineering Service or perversely called Money Eating Service by the troops) are as insanely corrupt as their civilian counterpart, if with only less check and balance. And, there are others. Forgot Tatra? Wearing an uniform automatically doesn't make a man pure. However, we (incl. me) like to believe that most of them are good men in uniform. But, perversely we automatically like to think the worse of the civilian services. Yes, the civilian services are pretty rotten, but there are a huge no. of good people there too who in fact is keeping the balance and preventing the system to tilt and fall.

@jackprinceAnd I cant believe you people are claiming to be nationalists with a straight face while downplaying the needs of the armed forces:tsk:
Well, I call myself a nationalist and for that I don't require anybody's certificate and however much I like you, not even yours. What I said is in fact what a nationalist should think too. Have you carefully gone through my posts, you wouldn't see that I am actually protesting that civilian employees should be granted OROP too. Well, that would be great given my father is a pensioner and brother-in-law is in govt. service. What I have been doing is showing the pitfalls that will likely emerge and how much effect it would have in national terms. It is called thinking in other's shoe.

Say whatever you may, I am not going to blindly support armed forces in this regard, if the financial implication would likely to hurt the economy badly. I respect them enough not to bad mouth their recent antics, but not enough to support their demands which might damage the nation.
 

jackprince

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As far as OROP is concerned, like I said before an Anomaly was created in service rules in the past. This is being corrected now. Will need to do some digging to find the anomaly.

Like I said some unions will try to raise this issue, but they may not get anything. If there are genuine pre-existing issues, civilian govt employees have various means get it resolved and they will get those as and when resolved.

Don't talk as if there is nobody in between employees and govt. issues raised will be dealt with, your version of events will occur only if failures occur at multiple levels which is unlikely.

OROP is a exception, this issue still exists because of misplaced priorities of previous govt.
Just to give you an example how much OROP will effect a civilian employee. My father is getting about Rs.17000/- as pension as retired as a mid-level executive. If he retired 1 year before, which is before implementation of 6 CPC, he would have been receiving something close to Rs.10K. The sum may not seem much, but when 7CPC is implemented the difference with 5CPC and &CPC retirees' in the same grade and same service length will be more than double. It is what my father told me, and I believe him in the matters relating to Govt. rules. Correct me if I am wrong.

Now, if this much amount of disparity and financial loss is going to be there, don't you think civilian employees will indeed push for it mightily?
 

Bhadra

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Indian system of pensions is very peculiar. Some points for the naysayers and doubting toms in the forum:cowboy: ....

Central government's obligation towards pensionery liability touches almost 1.5 per cent of the GDP. which is though on higher side is quite manageable.

The largest pensioner belong to India Railways.

Second largest is MHA ...

Third is the Defence ministry.

In the defence ministry more than 4 lakhs pensiners are civilians..
Ex Servicemen are about 25 lakhs....
The ratio of serving soldiers and ex servicemen is about 1:1.57 as compared to civilian side ratio of 1: .56 approximately..that is because of early retirement..

The pensioner scheme post Jan 2004 is based on voluntary contribution plus employer (Govt) contribution called NPS.

Considering attrition rate of the govt personnel at about 3.5 to 4 percent pa due to retirement and suppression of posts, , about 40 percent of govt employees will not come under pensionary liability by now. The govt pensionary liability will keep falling below 1.5 per cent of GDP every successive year.

OROP thus will not have any significant inflationary impact nor will increase fiscal deficit ....

Majority of Service personnel specially in Army retire between 36 and 39 years of age.

Compared to that all civilians retire at 60 and central police forces personnel retire at 58.

Thus, the civilian and CPF personnel serve for 20 to 24 years more - means they earn about minimum 80 lakh Rs more from the lowest pay scales as on today. they have stability of life and family and majority of them enjoy perks and privileges of Delhi or metros- their children studying in DU or JNU and then becoming IAS Babus. By 60 years of age their children are well settled and their social liabilities are over.

Consider the other side - what are you at 37 - small children ...more needs ..social insecurity .. no house .. no place to settle .. forced by system and pushed into rural areas. Your youth is over and on retirement you are a liability.... for everyone !! :doh:

The pension is decided on your last pay drawn. a civilian or CPF constable is beneficiary of minimum two more Pay Commissions and retires at almost double the basic salary than a soldier who retires at 37. Hence, when a civilian or CPF constable retires, his pension is double that of a soldier.

Hence, OROP is a dire need which was abolished by Indira Gandhi and her bureaucrats in 1973. Before that Army pension was 70 per cent of the pay drawn and civilians pension was 30 percent. Babus brought down soldiers pension and increased their own from 30 to 50 percent of last pay drawn.

Look at the state of affairs further :

Army runs their own Insurance Scheme called AGI and Govt has washed their hands off insuring their soldiers.
Defence Services run their own Provident Fund schemes and govt does not do any thing... no doles of higher interest rates and no union forces to represent the soldiers ..

There are no social welfare measure for the Defence Services personnel as compared to the Unionised Civilian Counterparts sitting in metros. On the contrary Army is the largest sources of taxes and revenue for some states like J&K...

The welfare scheme for ex servicemen in states is just ignored and deliberately supressed by by the Babus ...


This is how the country treats the soldiers ?? :daru:


Jai Hind
 
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jackprince

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@Mad Indian

Actually, if the arrear payment of the OROP can be spaced out, for say in a 5 year period, it is veey much doable and I don't think will hurt the economy. The main shock to economy would be the arrear payments which some say will run into over ra. 1lac crore. Will the ex-servicemen be ready for that?
 

ezsasa

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Just to give you an example how much OROP will effect a civilian employee. My father is getting about Rs.17000/- as pension as retired as a mid-level executive. If he retired 1 year before, which is before implementation of 6 CPC, he would have been receiving something close to Rs.10K. The sum may not seem much, but when 7CPC is implemented the difference with 5CPC and &CPC retirees' in the same grade and same service length will be more than double. It is what my father told me, and I believe him in the matters relating to Govt. rules. Correct me if I am wrong.

Now, if this much amount of disparity and financial loss is going to be there, don't you think civilian employees will indeed push for it mightily?
as Bhadra has explained in the above post, civilian pensions and defence personnel pensions cannot be equated in the same manner. Let's leave it at that.
 

ezsasa

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@Mad Indian

Actually, if the arrear payment of the OROP can be spaced out, for say in a 5 year period, it is veey much doable and I don't think will hurt the economy. The main shock to economy would be the arrear payments which some say will run into over ra. 1lac crore. Will the ex-servicemen be ready for that?
No where in credible media this 1 lac crore figure you are referring to has come out. Min and max is between 8.5k crores and 26.6 k crores. Even the max of 26.5K is manageable as one time payment, no shock to the system.
 

Victor Sierra

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Composed by an officer.... who quit prematurely due to personal reasons. A Shaurya Chakra awardee:

आज बूढ़े हो चुके सिपाही को तुमने हिकारत से दुत्कारा है
उसकी बूढी हड्डियों को तुमने
तिरस्कार से मारा है॥
याद करो जब भारत माँ पर संकट गहरा छाया था
जवाँ मर्द था यही सिपाही
जो इससे बचाने आया था॥
तुम सो रहे थे चैन से
ओढ़े चादर रेशम की
तब यही सिपाही बर्फ में लड़ा
तुम्हारी नींद नहीं कम की॥
तुम्हारी आज़ादी के हक़ को कभी नहीं गैरों को दिया
तुमने उसके इस एहसान का
बदला यूँ डंडो से दिया ॥
लूट खसोट तिजोरी भरते बाबू लोग मुस्काते हैं
पागल हैं दीवाने फौजी
जान लुटाए जाते हैं ॥
सर्वोच्च चीफ को गवर्नर बनने की
गाजर जो दिखाई जाती है
ठुल्लों के हाथो में जब तब
लाठी थमाई जाती है ॥
इस देश का दुर्भाग्य कि इसकी
सेना को मारा जाता है
सेना की आँखों के सामने
गैर मुल्क का झंडा फेहराया जाता है ॥
संसद में सैंकड़ो करोड़ बिना काम उड़ाए जाते हैं
गैर मुल्कों को झूठी शान में अरबो दिलाये जातें हैं ॥
खुद के सैनिक भूखे रहे
पर हक़ वो मांग नहीं सकते
ये कैसी आज़ादी है यारों
जहां बाबुओं की ग़ुलामी से भाग नहीं सकते ॥
आज सपने में ऊपर वाले से जवाब जरूर लाऊंगा
बाबूजी तुम ऐश करो
कल मैं तो आज़ादी नहीं मनाऊंगा ॥
आज जंतर मन्तर पर उस बूढ़े सिपाही ने मार नहीं खाई
आज मार खायी है इस संसद की आत्मा ने,
इस देश की इज़्ज़त ने ॥
तुम अपने ही रक्षक को मार बैठे हो
जिस डाली की छाँव में रहते थे,
उसी को काट बैठे हो ॥
 

pmaitra

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OROP may be implemented, but not at the cost of Indian Taxpayers and Country's development.

And I agree with @pmaitra armed forces must concede that they have done great disservice to the nation during peace time through their obsession for Imported Maal.

Plus why should we ignore our Paramilitary who have made supreme sacrifices?
Thanks, and good point.

The BSF, CRPF, and State Police Forces are at no less risk than the Army.
 

Bhadra

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The real Jai Hind moment: Stand with the soldier

Tarun Vijay


http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-real-jai-hind-moment-stand-with-the-soldier/20150819.htm

August 19, 2015 12:20 IST

'Why can't we make it mandatory for all IAS and IPS officers to serve in the armed forces for a year before joining service?'

'What stops us from making it compulsory for every MP to spend three months, immediately after taking oath, in military barracks/maybe a few nights in the bunkers on the borders too, to learn and understand the life of a fauji?' wonders Tarun Vijay, MP.


A lieutenant colonel from my constituency, Dehradun, was martyred recently in Jammu & Kashmir. There were hardly any noticeable faces of the city's so-called who's who at the prayer meeting organised to pay homage to the martyr.

Some political leaders, including the chief minister, sent their personal assistants. His wife had to plead hundred times to the principal of a famous Delhi school to have their son, a differently-abled sweet boy, admitted as the school had special counsellors, besides it encouraged inclusive education, so rare and important for such students.

She received a flat no.

An IAS officer, sitting in the high corridors of power, said to a colleague 'These faujis are demanding too much, in spite of living a luxurious life with all things, including a number of sahayaks available for free.'

Amongst the secular order of public discourse, it is fashionable to attack the armed forces for 'being brutal, violating human rights,' while in the same breath they adore and advocate the rights of the terrorists, Geelanis, and their goals.

In J&K and in areas of Andhra and Chhattisgarh, jihadis and Maoists have rich supporters in Mumbai and Delhi. Those who sometimes do a fauji show on their channel for the sake of increasing TRP ratings, happily share the dais with anti-national elements of Kashmir facing prosecution for attacking the armed forces under the ironically titled banner of the Idea of India!

A top general, recently retired from the army, said with sadness that today a soldier finds himself at the receiving end and would think twice about sending his son to the army. Go become a clerk, or try your luck at a professional college, do an MBA or prepare for the UPSC exams.

Joining the armed forces is no more a job that is considered an attractive and izzat wala kaam (respectable profession) and it shows in the entrance exams for the forces.

The Armed Forces Dental College in Pune is one of the best in the country. Yet it had to continuously lower the bar for its entrance qualification so that candidates with lesser ranks could join, as top students often choose other options.

While we regale ourselves about making India awesome, the soldiers -- lieutenant generals, colonels, subedars, JCOs -- are showing their medals and demanding the early implementation of the much assured One Rank One Pension.

It is painful to see our soldiers sitting at Jantar Mantar like any other demonstrator, in the scorching heat, heavy downpour and uncomfortable days and nights.

You may argue with them a hundred times -- 'Please don't demonstrate. The government is committed to implementing OROP. Have some patience. A soldier demonstrating at Jantar Mantar is the last thing an Indian would like to see.'

But their arguments are strong and their zazba is like a rock. Six prime ministers assured. Nothing happened. Forty years have passed, when the demand was raised and everyone agreed to it. Still nothing happened.

I stood with them, after paying tribute to the Kargil martyrs at India Gate and shouted Jai Hind. 'I am with you. I stand with you. I support you wholeheartedly. If you allow me I can sit with you, here at Jantar Mantar.' They were touched, but politely said, 'Sorry sir, no politicians here'.

It was atrocious to see that police in khaki behaved in a very uncivil and rude manner with these war veterans. The right course should have been to chargesheet the guilty policemen who didn't just hurt the soldiers, but India's pride.

I wonder why can't we make it mandatory for all IAS and IPS officers to serve in the armed forces for one year before joining service?

What stops us from making it compulsory for every Member of Parliament to spend three months, immediately after taking oath, in the military barracks/maybe a few nights in the bunkers too on the borders -- to learn and understand the life of a fauji?

The media, who often pay respects to the terrorists, must also be sent for a few months training and living at the borders. Let us then understand what it means to be a fauji.

Those who make decisions about soldiers have hardly any idea of their life and the job assignments. The secular 'left of centre' class has made the situation worse by floating the idea that soldiers get paid to lay their lives for the nation.

It is an inherent risk wrapped into their job profile and they must think twice before joining the forces. This is bullshit. No other job can be compared to the soldiers' duties. They retire at or before they even come close to forty. The officers' uniform and mandatory elevation to higher ranks is not available to men in uniform unlike the civil services.

Their leave is often not sanctioned even if there is a marriage or death in the family. Their postings are never done on the basis of sifarish, like the civil servants often manage. Even if one is not posted at Siachen, or in the Jaisalmer region, with extreme weather patterns, or anywhere in the Northeast, or Sikkim, or Punjab, the risks are as abundant as in any war-like situation.

That is the India we have got from the Congress' six decades of secular rule. Internal security and external violations of our territory always pose a threat and it is the continuous vigil and their incessant sacrifices that have made it possible to see the tricolour fluttering freely at Red Fort.

Their parents get the headless, mutilated, bodies of their sons. Just imagine, a mother receiving her son's body that will not be for antim darshan. People forget that respect for the soldiers is not just cosmetic patriotism, when a Kargil breaks out and television screens show the war in a home theatre. It is a question of life and death. And soldiers too have families, parents, daughters and sons.

A soldier reaches home on a 15 day vacation. Five days are often spent in the to and fro journey. Rest of the days, he is running from pillar to post for simple things, getting his children admitted to a better school, trying to resolve a court case or a land dispute, seeing his old parents get good healthcare etc.

None helps him at the district administration level. A policeman would be in a far better position to get things done in the jungle of a highly politicised and corrupt administration, but not a man in the olive green.

There is not even a martyrs memorial. For the last 14 years, ex soldiers organisations have been making a demand to have a grand martyrs memorial erected in Uttarakhand, where almost every second home is a soldier's home. No chief minister could do it, in spite of the fact that every one assured it, and assurances were given in writing.

When I started the campaign, I released two crores (Rs 20 million) from my MPLADS funds, the first response to it from the district administration -- the collector -- came to me after 13 months.

This year, when we almost did it, the worst hurdles came from the political class. That is where we stand in the regime of our patriotism.

I demanded land on lease and/or an apartment for soldiers who have completed three years of service in J&K and to their next kith and kin, in case of a martyr. All the traitors in the Valley began protesting.

Who came out to support the soldier then? Has he done any crime by serving in J&K? If a Kashmiri can buy land in Bihar or Assam with ease, why can't a soldier get a piece of land in the Kashmir valley, that too on lease? You want him to be there to protect you and lay his life. But won't give an inch of land to him. That is how we express our respects for the men in uniform.

A son not wanting to join the armed forces in a land where generations after generations have been joining the forces without any question is a dangerous trend. A soldier needs respect and honour, much more than money.

Today if he feels both are being denied to him, please walk down to him, clasp his hands and say, 'Sir, we salute you; we want to hear you with patience.' That will be the real Jai Hind moment.
 

Mad Indian

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Actually, if the arrear payment of the OROP can be spaced out, for say in a 5 year period, it is veey much doable and I don't think will hurt the economy. The main shock to economy would be the arrear payments which some say will run into over ra. 1lac crore. Will the ex-servicemen be ready for that?
I am pretty sure that the Army Vets wont bother waiting 5 more years to get their arrears in installments if only the govt legislates it and communicates them properly. So no, I dont think this should be a hurdle
 

Bhadra

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Why the One Rank One Pension scheme is so terribly important for the Indian military
The scheme implies payment of a uniform pension to personnel retiring in the same rank with the same length of service, irrespective of their date of retirement.
Shivani Sharma Dasmahapatra · May 26, 2015 · 12:30 pm


http://scroll.in/article/729908/why...so-terribly-important-for-the-indian-military

There’s talk once again of the One Rank One Pension scheme for the armed forces in the country’s news pages. Once again, political parties are wrangling over it as more than 2.5 million veterans who have been waiting for the scheme for three decades watch from the sidelines.

One Rank One Pension, or OROP, implies payment of a uniform pension to personnel retiring in the same rank with the same length of service, irrespective of their date of retirement. At present, pensioners who retired before 2006 draw a lower pension than their counterparts and juniors who retired afterwards.

The disparity between past and present pensioners has grown with every successive Pay Commission. It became most visible after the implementation of the Sixth Pay Commission’s recommendations in 2000s. A sepoy who retired before 1996 gets 82% less pension than a sepoy who retired after 2006. Among officers, a major who retired pre-1996 gets 53% less pension than a major who retired post-2006.

Predictably, this situation has left the ex-servicemen community extremely unhappy.

Why military pensions are different

Until 1973, officers drew 50% of their last drawn salary as pension every month and jawans/junior commissioned officers drew 70%. But this changed after the Third Pay Commission’s suggestions came in that year: military pensions were reduced and aligned with civilian pensions.

Many of those who resist One Rank One Pension argue that, given the alignment in military and civilian pensions, the scheme for the military may prompt similar calls from others. Their argument is, however, misplaced. Notwithstanding the pensions, the military is distinct from other government services.

To start with, armed forces personnel do not get to serve as long as those in the civil services. While the retirement age for civil servants is 60 years, 85% soldiers are compulsorily retired between 35 and 37 years of age and another 12% to 13% soldiers between 40 and 54 years.

Further, civil servants are protected under Section 47 of the Disability Act and cannot be discharged by the government on account of disability until they reach the retirement age. This section doesn’t apply to the defence forces and they can be discharged anytime on account of disability.

The Legal Position

In 1983, the Supreme Court had ruled in the case of DS Nakra and others vs Union of India that “pension is not a bounty nor a matter of grace depending upon the sweet will of the employer. It is not an ex-gratia payment, but a payment for past services rendered."

The apex court spoke again on this issue in the case of Union of India & Maj Gen SPS Vains & Others in 2009. It ruled then that no defence personnel senior in rank could get a lower pension than his junior irrespective of the date of retirement, and that similarly placed officers of the same rank should be given the same pension irrespective of the date of retirement.

On February 17 this year, the court, while hearing a contempt petition filed by Maj Gen (Retd) SPS Vains, directed the Centre to implement its six-year-old verdict and follow the OROP principle for retired armed forces personnel. It reminded the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government that the party had promised to do so in the run-up to last year’s Lok Sabha elections.

The bench, comprising Justices TS Thakur and AK Goel, warned the government of contempt if it failed to abide by the order within three months. “We make it clear that no further time will be granted for the purpose of [the] implementation of the judgement,” it told additional solicitor general Pinky Anand.

Long overdue

The OROP scheme has been on an endless journey for the past three decades. Successive governments have ignored it or pushed it to the backburner, suggesting that armed forces veterans are secondary to political expediency and politics. Last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had offered new hope when he said his government would implement it “as soon as possible”.

While the euphoria generated by Modi’s statements pre- and post-election has died down, the military veterans are still cautious. They have heard statements before declaring that OROP has been “cleared”, “finalised”, “signed”. They now want a government order that confirms the scheme, putting an end to the pension disparity that has hurt so many veterans across ranks.

The decades-long governmental apathy towards ex-servicemen’s demands has put a financial squeeze on veterans who retired years ago and now can’t meet the rising costs of living with their low pensions. It has also projected the armed forces as an unattractive career option for the youth. Lured by the far more lucrative salaries in the corporate sector, hundreds of officers opt out of the services for better financial prospects. This has led to an acute shortage of manpower in the armed forces.

While the armed forces are called upon to help in every major emergency – be it the Yemen evacuations, the Uttarakhand flood rescue operation, or Operation Maitri in earthquake-hit Nepal – there is nobody heeding the call when these men are in need. The Indian government must fulfil its much-repeated promise if it wants to keep the country’s armed forces motivated.
 

Bhadra

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I am pretty sure that the Army Vets wont bother waiting 5 more years to get their arrears in installments if only the govt legislates it and communicates them properly. So no, I dont think this should be a hurdle
Think about the expectations of a 92 year old veteran or 82 years old Bishmbar Singh who was roughed up by Delhi police and CRPF ....

They have been waiting for last 40 years for OROP and now they are clearly agitating for future generation ...
 

Mad Indian

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Also, come one guys. We should be making army a very viable career option for our citizens. For that we have to make it as attractive as possible. Millions throng every year to write the useless civil service examinations. What about the Army recruitment? Does our army give enough incentive to our citizens to sacrifice the prime of their youth and life for the service of our nation? Will OROP change even a bit of that? If your answer for the last question is yes, then there is no question on whether or not OROP is needed or not. OROP should have been implemented like 1000 years back

As for civil servants, they can go dive off a cliff. these c**ts recieve tens of thousands (sometimes running into lakhs) in their monthly income to sit on their asses. What good have these fuckers actuallly done for this country? Hell, I have not even brought the corruption and the obstruction to growth the bastards engage in! If tomorrow, many people start leaving that stupid bureaucracy and govt jobs and , I would consider that as the biggest sign that India has matured economically. Hell all the bureaucrats can dive off a cliff today and India would be a much better place for business and economics(and of course I am not talking about Police and Judges, who again I deserve a very good salary, benefits and pensions)

Compare that with the army- would any of you would be willing to see people deserting Army? Are we going put Army in such a pathetic position that no educated Indian /skilled Indian wants to join it because the price is too high and the rewards of being in army is not high enough?

And dont tell me we dont have funds - Indian budget for 2015 is 4.5L crores. And we cant spare 9kCrores of it for our Veterans? We have money for cow piss yojanas and other useless welfare projects but not for our Army?:tsk:

I would not hesitate to consider giving Armed forces a salary as high as IAS officers or such, if it was feasible. So please , lets us all stand with our patriots. We are safe here because they suffer there. And lets not insult their sacrifice by comparing it with the useless civilian govt employees, who can all dive off a cliff and the country would be better off without them
 

Mad Indian

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Think about the expectations of a 92 year old veteran or 82 years old Bishmbar Singh who was roughed up by Delhi police and CRPF ....

They have been waiting for last 40 years for OROP and now they are clearly agitating for future generation ...
I am not saying we should not give them their arrears. I am just saying we can give it in installments if giving it as a single package is impossible,(and it is if it runs into 1 lakh crore rupees).
 

grampiguy

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Pretty strong arguments from the other side of the OROP debate :

Avuy Shukla : THE BITTER TRUTH ABOUT OROP
http://hillpost.in/2015/08/the-bitter-truth-about-orop/104013/

The current debate about OROP (One Rank One Pension) has become infused with too much passion, emotion, recriminations, frustration and downright prevarication. This, though perhaps understandable, is not healthy because it tends to blur and take the focus away from the hard issues involved, and prevents a rational analysis of the problem. The plain fact is that OROP is just not implementable, and the sooner the Government comes out with an open admission on this, and stops leading the defence forces down the garden path, the better.

The government consists of scores of departments (of which the armed forces are also a part), thousands of categories of posts and hundreds of pay scales/ranks. Their remuneration, promotion avenues, pensions have been arrived at after decades of deliberation and many Pay Commissions. There are intricate linkages between them (called “equation” in government parlance): the whole structure is like a huge spider web in which all the strands are inter-connected, and disturbing just one cobweb destabilises the entire structure. The demand for OROP threatens to do exactly this, and this is why the government is unable to take a decision on this controversial issue.



The basic premise of OROP is inherently flawed. One’s pension is inextricably linked to one’s salary at the time of retirement and not to the salary of the same post twenty years later. That is why Pay Commissions, every ten years, do not link past pensions with current salaries but provide a percentage growth to those pensions. This is true of not just the armed forces (as some may think) but of the entire government structure, including ALL civilian posts – with one exception.

This exception is the “causus belli” or the root of the problem. Many years ago the IAS contrived a sleight of hand (at which we are past masters) to ensure that the highest echelons of the elite civil services, at least, get the benefit of OROP ! This is how it was managed: the highest pay scale in government (currently) is Rs. 80000/ fixed. (only the Chiefs of the three defence forces and the Cabinet Secretary are in the fixed scale of Rs. 90000/). It was decreed that all who retire in this scale (known loftily as the Apex Scale) would get OROP – that is, their pensions would always be linked to whatever revised Apex Scale the subsequent Pay Commissions decided. Since every single IAS (or IFS) officer retires in the Apex Scale this forever ensured OROP for themselves. To reduce any opposition to the stratagem, some Apex Scale posts were also made available to other All India services.

The top brass in the armed forces were also party to this decision, for they also got a share of the pie. Take the Army. The Apex Scale has also been provided to the VCOAS, Army Commanders, Lt. General (NFSG) and one third of the total strength of Lt. Generals in the force. The same applies to their counterparts in the other two forces. This may perhaps explain why we have not heard the top echelons of the forces coming out in public support of the demand for universal OROP.

Giving OROP to just the Apex Scale was a bad and inequitable decision, and all the elite civil services and the armed forces were party to it. So, don’t just blame the “babus” please.

The chickens have now come home to roost and they’re making quite a racket over it, as chickens will do. Extending OROP to just the defence forces is neither fair, nor possible. It is not fair because, emotive claims apart, they are not the only ones serving the nation – the primary school teacher in a Naxal village in Dantewada is also doing so, the coal miner spending twelve hours every day in the pitch darkness of a flooded mine in Jharia is also doing so, the fireman rushing into a burning building in a Mumbai slum is also doing so. Nor does it help the cause to quote statistics about the number of casualties – the para military forces and some state police forces have consistently had higher casualties than the army over the years. Demanding a special dispensation on the basis of an exclusive claim to patriotism is never a good idea – it has tinges of a hubris that does not go well with the concept of selfless service.

The acceptance of the OROP demand is also not practically or legally possible, because it cannot be limited to the armed forces only, and any extension to other services and departments will bankrupt the government for all times. The stirrings have already started – the Central Para Military Forces, the Railway unions, some Associations of central government Ministries – have already given ominous hints that if OROP is allowed to the armed forces it cannot be denied to them. So we’re no longer talking of just 22 lakh ex-servicemen and 6 lakh widows – we’re talking of tens of millions of central and state government employees. We’re no longer looking at a financial implication of Rs. 8000 crores but ten or twenty times that. Its a no brainer.

And yet there are some aspects of the demand of the armed forces that are legitimate, that are peculiar to them, and which any sensitive government has to consider sympathetically. The primary one for me is their early retirement (especially for the jawans and ORs) and subsequent unemployment with relatively low pension rates. The solution to this vexed imbroglio has to come out of the box and not from any manual of the finance department. Although it is certainly presumptuous of me I would make so bold as to suggest the following steps as an alternative to OROP:

* Eradicate the root and genesis of the problem — abolish the OROP benefit provided only to the holders of the Apex Scale and cover them under the same formula of pension as applicable to others. This may occasion some resistance from about twenty thousand or so of our plastic frame and a few defence brass but it would remove the heart burning of many millions of others and restore equity.
* Provide higher pay scales to members of the armed forces to compensate them for their shorter service tenures and lack of promotion avenues. In order to do this the bureaucracy should once and for all give up the specious notion of maintaining “equations”- there are no equations between apples and oranges.
* Increase the gratuity available to ORs and jawans.
* Provide 50% reservation for jawans and other ORs in all central para-military and state police forces at appropriate levels. Not only would this single measure provide gainful employment to them for another 25 years, it would also considerably enhance the image and effectiveness of these forces because of the sterling qualities of discipline and integrity which these ORs would bring with them. I calculate that there would be about 30,000 (300000) retirees from the army every year – the annual vacancies in the para-military and police forces would be many times this number, so adjusting the former should pose no problem. Ex-servicemen Directorates already exist at the Centre and in the states and they can maintain the data of retirees and forward the names against requisitions.

OROP is a mirage which will never materialise. If the lot of our ex-servicemen is to be improved and their obvious career disadvantages compensated, suggestions like the above have to be considered. Mr. Modi should learn a thing or two from the armed forces – instead of a head-on confrontation with them he should execute a flanking manoeuvre.

--------------------

Any comments ???
 

Hari Sud

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OROP yes, but the ex servicemen, find extra cash.

Do not get emotional about it.

It took 67 years to wake up to this demand after India became India in 1947. Who is behind it. Tax those politicians or the parties for extra cash.

Yes, the servicemen have been very well taken care off during their service, granted many benefits which others do not have, hence they have to be content with.

But I have a suggestion, when the economic mess left by the Congress party is taken care of, the economy rebounds, there will be extra cash and then the ex servicemen can have a piece of the pie. As one of the above poster stated, they should also work within their three services and remove the penchant for imports at three times the normal price (Rafale for one) and work hard to produce military hardware of high quality, internally. That will free up cash. Also it will remove that tendency to ask for commission from the foreign suppliers which also bumps up the price. Ex servicemen, do not stay silent if you are aware that some one has accepted bribes for supply favours. Your demands are more likely to be met if cash is freed up.
 

pmaitra

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Any comments ???
Yes, specifically for @Bhadra ji and the guy whose favourite phrase has shifted from "dingbat" to "Wow! Just wow!"

Here, quoted below:
Giving OROP to just the Apex Scale was a bad and inequitable decision, and all the elite civil services and the armed forces were party to it. So, don’t just blame the “babus” please.

The chickens have now come home to roost and they’re making quite a racket over it, as chickens will do. Extending OROP to just the defence forces is neither fair, nor possible. It is not fair because, emotive claims apart, they are not the only ones serving the nation – the primary school teacher in a Naxal village in Dantewada is also doing so, the coal miner spending twelve hours every day in the pitch darkness of a flooded mine in Jharia is also doing so, the fireman rushing into a burning building in a Mumbai slum is also doing so. Nor does it help the cause to quote statistics about the number of casualties – the para military forces and some state police forces have consistently had higher casualties than the army over the years. Demanding a special dispensation on the basis of an exclusive claim to patriotism is never a good idea – it has tinges of a hubris that does not go well with the concept of selfless service.
Ok, so there goes the appeal to emotion part, and hopefully, we will have an objective discussion.
Think about the expectations of a 92 year old veteran or 82 years old Bishmbar Singh who was roughed up by Delhi police and CRPF ....

They have been waiting for last 40 years for OROP and now they are clearly agitating for future generation ...
Sir, that 92 year or 82 year of age is irrelevant. I want to ask you a question about your point that these people are agitating for future generation.

If the agitators were indeed concerned about the future generation, as you claim, which includes soldiers serving in the Army today, they would have come out on the streets against the relevant generals and in support of our tank crews meant to serve in the T-90, which, as some of us understand, would have been at a disadvantage without DRDO developed Kanchan Armour and DRDO fitted Air Conditioner. So, this agitating for the future generation part seems a bit far fetched, although, I concede, it might not be entirely untrue.

The fact of the matter is, some of our generals are just unbecoming of occupying the posts they currently occupy, and any criticism of these people is twisted as criticism of the entire military, and any objective discussion is stifled by invoking the age old appeal to emotion dogma and holding up the uniform as a carte blanche.

I hope people would at least read the article by Ajay Shukla, a relevant portion of which has been quoted herein, and heretoforth, refrain from shielding the generals from legitimate criticism.
 

Bhadra

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Yes, specifically for @Bhadra ji and the guy whose favourite phrase has shifted from "dingbat" to "Wow! Just wow!"

Here, quoted below:

Ok, so there goes the appeal to emotion part, and hopefully, we will have an objective discussion.

Sir, that 92 year or 82 year of age is irrelevant. I want to ask you a question about your point that these people are agitating for future generation.

If the agitators were indeed concerned about the future generation, as you claim, which includes soldiers serving in the Army today, they would have come out on the streets against the relevant generals and in support of our tank crews meant to serve in the T-90, which, as some of us understand, would have been at a disadvantage without DRDO developed Kanchan Armour and DRDO fitted Air Conditioner. So, this agitating for the future generation part seems a bit far fetched, although, I concede, it might not be entirely untrue.

The fact of the matter is, some of our generals are just unbecoming of occupying the posts they currently occupy, and any criticism of these people is twisted as criticism of the entire military, and any objective discussion is stifled by invoking the age old appeal to emotion dogma and holding up the uniform as a carte blanche.

I hope people would at least read the article by Ajay Shukla, a relevant portion of which has been quoted herein, and heretoforth, refrain from shielding the generals from legitimate criticism.


Troll alerts ! troll alert !

Hijacking the thread as always >> By Moderator !!! Ha Ha Ha ...
 

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