Origin of Rajputs from Panini times kshatriyas

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by MAYURA, May 5, 2013.

  1. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    It is observed by me that this forum consists of lot of rajput related topics but not one on their origin.


    What is sad is that the people oppose aryan invasion theory ( I too but it must be admitted that other side has good arguments too ) but not this worst myth ( along with undue prominence to buddhism ) concocted by british historians to be followed by communist and even nationalist historians.


    In my study, I found that there is hardly any evidence for so called foreign origin of rajputs.

    Even western historians now admit that the Paramaras, Chandellas, Chalukyas, Gaharvads are of indigenous stock but they associate Gurjar pratiharas, guhilots and chahmans or chauhans with huna, scythian and kushan tribes.


    Now, to be frank, I can demolish the chances of kushan and scythian ancestry easily but I would like to know how they are related with Hunas.

    I mean Rajputs if descendants of huna, must have some history of that descent but there is none in contemporary epigraphy.


    Is here someone who can take up this challenge to show how rajputs are of huna stock? I am not doing it in spirit of combat but to know reasons why they are associated with hunas other than ridiculous idea that like hunas, they too are great fighters.

    were mauryas, sungas, chandellas, rashtrakutas, rathores, guptas, satvajhanas not great fighters?
     
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  3. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Rajputs have got nothing to do with Sakas and Hunas.
    In fact the folklore (and probably some texts too) talk about fighting the same guys.
     
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  4. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    anyway, you are correct as shaka and kushana were fiercely resisted by different clans of rajputs and these clans were mentioned in Panini.

    rajputs have nothing to do with kushanas, shakas and hunas and even western historians admit that chandellas, rathores, parmaras, kalachuris and gharavads are of indigenous stock.


    they associate sisodias, chauhans and pratiharas with hunas which is plain nonsense.


    anyway, i have never been given any evidence of hunas being ancestors of rajputs and whatever evidence is found turns out to be crap.


    I am waiting for any member who can challenge me on my assertion that clans like madra, malavas, yaudheyas, arjunayanas, trigartas and kulut are ancestors of most of rajputs. these names find mention in panini and later day epigraphy.

    The pratiharas are from a kshatriya wife of brahmin haribhadra.

    the myth has done immense damage to india's most patriotic class as many of them have now started believing that they are iranians and other such nonsense.
     
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  5. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Sisodias start from a village named 'Sisoda' near Udaipur. They are a branch of Guhilots.
    Guhilots got the name from their progenitor - King Guhaditya.
    Guha was the first link in his lineage's shift from Vallabhipur (Gujarat) to south Rajasthan after the former's sacking.
    He was born in a cave near Mount Abu.
     
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  6. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    As you correctly said that the first king guhidatta was their founder.

    the samoli inscription has been assigned to 646ad by Gopinath sharma and the coins tell us about a certain "shree guhil".

    however, here starts the confusion.


    vallabhipur if was capital of maitraks could not have been sacked by then.

    also, what is the evidence for shift from vallabhipur.
     
  7. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    I don't have any primary sources with me but this is a rough rehash from the mewar website where they've put up their history and geneology:
    By the mid 500 A.D., Siladitya VII, the Rajput king of Vallabhipur, was sacked by Salim Uniss, a commander of Arab ruler of Sindh, killing King Siladitya. His fourth and youngest wife Pushpawati, who was on a pilgrimage offering prayer for her unborn child at Ambaji near Mt. Abu, heard about the destruction of Vallabhi and the death of her husband. Despairing she took refuge in a cave and gave birth to a son, whom she called ‘Guha’ (cave-born). Entrusting her child to a local Brahmin woman (daughter of a priest), the queen committed sati.
    For friends, he has the hardy Bhils. With these mountain-men, Guhil forges strong bonds of brotherhood. The Bhil chieftain grants Guhil or Guhaditya his first territory, a stretch of forested mountain near Idar. The State of Mewar is founded and has never forgotten the contribution of the Bhils.

    Apart from the above mentioned Arab attack, there is also an account of Persian attack. Both might be about the same attack, I'm not sure :
    "The last king of Valabhi was Siladitya VII, who was killed by an invasion of barbarians (the town was sacked by the son of Nushirwan of Persia in AD 524). "
    Here's a wiki entry talking of some Persian events and kings in 6th century.
    Bahrām Chobin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :-
    There are many fables attributed to Bahram VI, as is the norm for many heroes in Persian literature. The chapters in Volume VIII of Ferdowsi's 11th-century Shahnameh[5] on the reigns of "Hurmuzd, Son of Nushirwan," and "Khusrau Parviz," both of which are almost as much about Bahram Chobin as about Hormizd or his son. The sections on Bahram Chobin's sister, Gordiyeh, are of special interest. According to traditions outside the Shāhnāmeh, she was also his wife.

    More from Mewar website :
     
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  8. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    Udai Pratap Singh Judeo of my city helped GH Ojha to write history of rajputs which he did remarkably well and his mid sixth century date is acceptable.


    however, Vallabhi since 470 ad was being ruled by maitrak rulers and we have no evidence of any persian attack ( arabs were too weak to raid even a group of villages ).


    also, no kanaksena is found in second century ad in gujarat as gujarat at that time was under shakas.


    Colonel Todd was dependent upon his helper jain guru yatichandra and his theories of pre 600 ad rajput history are useless.


    the website does not tell us about any contemporary or near contemporary source.



    however, all this must show to people that guhils are not descendants of huna as in mid sixth century Nagda region had hardly any contact with huna rulers.
     
  9. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    are not the Rajputs descendants of Huns and Scythians?
     
  10. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    This is as big lie as saying that Gandhi looked like russians.

    If you think they are, give me any evidence.
     
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  11. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Tod has made mistakes but I don't think that is the way to debunk a source, specially when he is talking about inscriptions and Vallabhi has been a famous Jain centre before Buddhism took over between 5th and 7th century.
    It is the Bardic history that talks about destruction of Vallabhi's ports at the time of Siladitya VI.

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    Agreed
     
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  12. dhananjay1

    dhananjay1 Regular Member

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    This is just a game of semantics. The term 'rajput' is corruption of the word 'rājaputra'. It refers to members of any ruling clan. After the 12th century the kshatriya clans of Rajasthan were successful in resisting Turk invasion of their territories as opposed to kshatriya-s of Gangetic plains. These clans described themselves as Rajputs. Their fame spread with time and the word 'Rajput' became almost synonymous with kshatriya in the north and many Hindu clans who had no connection with Rajasthan also started to describe themselves as Rajputs. Thus Rajputs = Kshatriya-s of Rajasthan. They were not Shaka-s or Huṇa-s, but the descendants of kshatriya rulers who used to rule before 12th century. Many kshatriya clans also migrated from plains to Rajasthan after 12th century. It's really quite simple if one studies the history of different clans before and after 12th century.

    Todd's work can't be taken seriously when it comes to history. He had a sketchy knowledge of history and culture he was writing about. His description of Hindu history and mythology is totally confused and mixed with his liberal dose of imagination. Only his description of events that he saw personally could be of some use, as far as the study of history is concerned.
     
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  13. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    Really sir and we should note that the kshatriya tribes that resisted huna, greeks and scythians are the rajputs and thakurs of gangetic plains.




    Todd's imagining guhil rajputs as descendants of Nausherwan the pre islamic persian ruler, confirms your statement that he can not be relied upon as professional historian
     
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  14. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Right, I agree.
    :) I know Rajasthan is known as epicentre of Rajputs; but Sorry it is not so fixed as if Kshatriyas of Rajasthan had been in Rajasthan since the big bang and the ones of Gangetic plains were always in Gangetic plains.
    Marwar's Rathores (branching from Rashtrakutas) were in Gangetic plains, as tributaries of Jaichand Gahadvala when Ghori struck.
    Later they migrated to Rajputana and settled in Pali.
    Amber's Kachhwahas came in from Gwalior.
    Mewar's Guhilots came in from Saurashtra/Gujarat.
    Rashtrakutas rose from Deccan to reach till Kannauj i.e. Gangetic plains.
    So you see, Clans and dynasties have been fliudly moving here and there. One can't characterize them merely on geography.

    They didn't describe. That is what the people called them, for being kinsmen. All this happened gradually.
    That is the only way gradually a term like this could gain currency in the society.
    It is not like one day some nobles got up and said "Ok from now on we call ourselves 'Rajaputra'" and poof, the term is in use.

    There, you said it yourself.

    I would rather not dismiss or gulp someone completely. Every author, every historian has succeeded and failed at points.
    Need is to separate grain from the chaff. History reading is no clean business. There is a lot of mess to glean through.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
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  15. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    as per me, these clans were once based in rajasthan but moved on and re immigrated to rajasthan .


    One can not just assume that Yaudheyas and malavas and arjunayanas who shattered a kingdom of kushanas ( which extended from varanasi to khotan ) were eliminated and new rajput clans emerged.
     
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  16. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    My 2 cents:

    • Rajput is the Prakrit version of Sanskrit Rajaputra. Hence, anyone who is a son of (or descended from) king(s) is Rajput.
    • Kshatriya is a Substative-Noun that originates from Kshetra, which means territory. Anyone who is in charge of ruling, defending, or administering this territory is a Kshatriya, and can mean a warrior or non-warrior. The Hellenic-Persian equivalent of the word Kshatriya is Satrapi.
    • Yavans are known to be alien to India, and we have an Indian surname called Chauhan or Chavan. There is a strong possibility that some Rajputs might have actually descended from foreigners.
    • The fire ritual performed by Agasthya on Mt. Abu might have something to do with it. Folklore says, Rajputs emerged from within the fire, but I don't believe that. However, could it be that the fire was a massive military signal atop a mountain intended for the warrior tribes in the distant lands, to come in the defense of Brahmins?
     
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  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    That's what we were taught.

    Our history book took a middle approach, and said some Rajputs originated locally, while some came from outside.

    Of course, if we look at the various Rajputs, we will see there is a wide variation in the structure of nose, eyes, cheek bones, eyebrows, etc..

    I do not believe that all Rajputs originate form the same region (such as, Rajasthan).
     
  18. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Imo Rajputs are not an exclusive ethnic group but a socioreligious group. Dogra Rajputs are very different from say Bihari Rajputs who are very different from Sindhi Rajputs.
     
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  19. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Modern day Rajasthan or even the medieval Rajputana is too small a region.

    The medieval clans have come out of old clans like the ones you named. How? Because they follow the same practices, they hold the same clan states of monarchy with the same weight the old clans had in choosing a leader/king/chieftain.
    And now that you've named these old clans, have you looked up the regions of their activity?
    It spans from all the way up Himachal Pradesh (Udumbara, Kuluta, Trigarta clans) down to Gujarat-MP (Malavs, Bharasivas).
    In fact without this wall of warrior clans running parallely southwest to the Indus, Kannauj in Gangetic plains couldn't have become an Imperial Capital of North India.

    From Mahabharat to Ashokan edicts, there are plenty of references to Yavanas and many explicitly count them as part of India, in the northwest border provinces.
    From Vishnupuran, they are identified as relegated Kshatriyas who had left the country eventually.
    Book 4, Chapter 3, verses 42 to 49 :
    Accordingly when he became a man he put nearly the whole of the Haihayas to death, and would have also destroyed the Śakas, the Yavanas, Kámbojas, Páradas, and Pahnavas 15, but that they applied to Vaśisht́ha, the family priest of Sagara, for protection. Vaśisht́ha regarding them as annihilated (or deprived of power), though living, thus spake to Sagara: "Enough, enough, my son, pursue no farther these objects of your wrath, whom you may look upon as no more. In order to fulfil your vow I have separated them from affinity to the regenerate tribes, and from the duties of their castes." Sagara, in compliance with the injunctions of his spiritual guide, contented himself therefore with imposing upon the vanquished nations peculiar distinguishing marks. He made the Yavanas 16 shave their heads entirely; the Śakas he compelled to shave (the upper) half of their heads; the Páradas wore their hair long; and the Pahnavas let their beards grow, in obedience to his commands 17. Them also, and other Kshatriya races, he deprived of the established usages of oblations to fire and the study of the Vedas; and thus separated from religious rites, and abandoned by the Brahmans, these different tribes became Mlechchhas. Sagara, after the recovery of his kingdom, reigned over the seven-zoned earth with undisputed dominion

    Book 2, Chapter 3, verse 8 :
    At the eastern end dwell the Kiratas and the western end the Yavanas.

    Manusmriti mentions Yavans in the same light at Chapter 10 verse 43 and 44 :
    43. But in consequence of the omission of the sacred rites, and of their not consulting Brahman’s, the following tribes of Kshatriya have gradually sunk in this world to the condition of Sudras;
    44. (Viz.) the Paun-drakas, the Kodas, the Dravida, the Kambogas, the Yavanas, the Sakas, the Paradas, the Pahlavas, the Kinas, the Kiratas, and the Daradas.

    In the Markandeya Purana's 'Bharata Varnana Prakarana' the frontiers of Bharata are mentioned as follows:
    "The Kirata regions in the East, the Yavana regions in the northwest, the Malaya hills in the south, and the Himalayas in the north"

    There are many more such references.

    Coming to the indicated resemblance between Yavan and Chauhan/Chavan.
    According to 'PrithviRaj Vijaya' and 'Hammir Mahakavya' the progenitor of the clan is the King named 'Chahaman', followed by Vasudev and SamantRaj. Chauhans trace their first major settlement at Sambhar in Rajasthan.

    Interesting. What basis or evidence might lead that to anywhere from mere speculation?

    The folklore legend of Agnikula is a late prop up to glorify certain Rajput clans (including Chauhans), and has been used by European scholars to air their wild theories about foreign descent etc.
    PrithviRaj Vijaya written by Jayanaka the courtesan of PrithviRaj Chauhan, clearly mentions that the Chauhans were Suryavanshis.
    So does the 'Kanhade Prabandh and 'Vansha Bhaskar'.

    The Rajputs we see today have been inter marrying among each other in the entire north India. Need not mention the variation in geography and physical appearance.
    Secondly, the source base of medieval Rajputs genetic stock is not one narrow clan of a single region.
    It consists of nearly a dozen old clans spread between Himachal and Gujarat-MP. (As given in top of the post)

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
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  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I offer no evidence, and I claim no assertion. That is why I said there is a possibility.
     
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  21. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Understood :namaste:
     

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