Opinion: Ideal IN Submarine strength

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by arnabmit, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,893
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Location:
    Kolkata
    We have been debating on what IN's underwater streangth shouls be in bits and pieces spread across multiple threads; thought it might be a good idea to consolidate them in a single thread.

    Would like to invite realistic and practical (NOT something like "100 SSK, 50 SSBN/SSGN and 50 SSN") opinions on what IN's underwater arm should be in the near future.

    @Ray @Kunal Biswas @Decklander @pkroyal @lemontree @DivineHeretic @sayareakd @p2prada @ersakthivel and others...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  2.  
  3. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    The current plan is to make 6 Scorpenes and 6 new submarines for a total of 12 SSKs. The second plan is to manufacture 12 indigenous SSKs. All of this should take around 20-30 years.

    We have plans of building 1 Arihant every three years. So, around 3 every decade or 6 by 2030.
     
    TrueSpirit1 likes this.
  4. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,893
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Location:
    Kolkata
    My 2 cents:

    SSK:
    1> Order 3 follow up to Scorpene-class
    2> Coincide the 6th to 9th Scorpene subs induction with the phasing out of the HDW subs
    3> 5th to 9th Scorpene would have AIP, once all 9 have been commissioned, send in the 1st to 4th for installation of AIP plugs
    4> Plan 1st P-75I sub roll out to within 2yrs of the 9th Scorpene
    5> Plan 3 follow up of P-75I, with the roll out of the 7th within a year of the 6th.

    SSN:
    1> Get the 2nd Akula. Keep one for underwater recce near Paki shores, the other near Malacca Strait. Just keep silent and observe.
    2> Execute the option to buy the 2 Akulas at the end of the lease period. Once bought, arm them and task them with CBG escort role.
    3> Build 3 new 6000 ton SSN based on the Akula design by 2030, with the Indian 150MW reactor under testing now.

    SSBN/SSGN:
    1> Build 6 SSBN of 6k-8k tons based on the Indian 150MW reactor by 2030, to be armed with 12 K4/K5 each
    2> Once 4 of the bigger SSBNs are operational, relegate the 4 Arihant-class subs to dual SSGN/SSBN role, armed with 6 K-15 and 6 Nirbhay each.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,616
    Likes Received:
    28,452
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    @arnabmit, I have a opinion of my own regarding the solution of fast declining Submarine fleet, It may sound lesser lethal but good enough for us as regional power and mainly for defensive measure against Enemy`s Submarine force as well as Surface fleets ..

    So here it goes, IN operation and its main concern are at Bay of Bengal, Andaman Sea, Arabian Sea and a Small portion of Indian Ocean, These areas are close to our lands and important for us, Submarine such as Kilo and Scorpion and other of similar displacement are very formidable platform but are not in numbers and equally expensive and takes time, India need a Submarine forces of at-least 30 vessels of mixed classes ..

    So my solution based on above view is to introduce a smaller displacement SSK for mainly coastal defense and patrolling over local waters, The specifications must be >>

    0. Smaller displacement under 1000tons ..
    1. Low unit cost ..
    2. Lower operating cost ..
    3. Ability to fire Cruise Missiles from torpedo tubes ..
    4. Smaller Crew ..
    5. Diesel - electric power-plant ..

    For Example >>

    1. French SMX-23 Andrasta
    Andrasta-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    2. U-206 class
    Type 206 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    @sayareakd Sir
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  6. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,893
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Location:
    Kolkata
    Yes sir! Littoral midget subs are very useful!

    Here is another contender from DCNS:



     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    Kunal Biswas likes this.
  7. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    1,014
    Location:
    India
    Ok, 18 attack subs (including 5 SSN) & 6 SSBN...quite reasonable. Balanced force structure in keeping with IN's Blue-water pursuit as well as minimum nuke deterrent.
     
  8. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,893
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Location:
    Kolkata
    Actually I said 18 SSK + 5 SSN (for CBG/SSBN escort) + 6 SSBN = Total 29 platforms with say 18 in rotational deployment at a given time (2030).

    24 platforms with 14 in rotational deployment should be achieved by 2022.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  9. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    1,014
    Location:
    India
    Ok, then it sounds a little far-fetched, given the state of our shipyards & total govt. monopoly (this is not gonna change irrespective of how many DPP's get drafted by MoD).

    Budget constraints & poor supply-chain would be additional factors.

    Finally, absence of long-term planning at MoD level & mutual competition between the 3 forces would present additional difficulties.

    So, while this force-structure is not totally impossible to achieve but it is, in fact, impossible, for all practical purposes. This is simply not happening.
     
    arnabmit likes this.
  10. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    Kolkata, India
    Is it possible for India to jointly collaborate with Russia's newest 5th generation nuclear submarine programme? That would surely be a game changer since India has to deal with future Chinese naval forays in the Indian Ocean.

    Russia developing fifth-generation submarines

    Link: naval-technology.com/news/newsrussia-developing-fifth-generation-submarines
     
  11. Eastman

    Eastman Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    168
    Location:
    Bye Bye DFI
    I wish for nuclearisation of our submarine force a couple for the Strategic Force Command with high endurance (of course SSBN :troll:) and at least one SSBN and one SSN per CBG.
     
  12. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,631
    Likes Received:
    11,706
    Kunal sir, may i just add

    a part from the subs we need sensors on sea bed and on sea around the area of A&N Island till choking points of Chinese maritime traffic lanes. For the reason that any blockade will result in Chinese sending their own subs and ships in the area.
    With these assets which will not cost much compare to subs, it will act as force multipliers as it will help us get detection and presence of PLA subs and ships in the area.
    [​IMG]

    DRDO has made sea sensors i have not seen any sea bed sensor, but with anti tsunami sensor operating in the area it is safe to assume that something like that exists.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  13. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    248
    Location:
    US
    Submarines are most useful when they can hold enemy assets at risk... in enemy waters. Against China, SSKs simply won't do the job. The ideal strength is whatever will keep 2-3 SSNs and one SSBN in the Pacific at all times.
     
  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,162
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Here is my ideal size:

    Coastal Submersible (diesel-electric, 1000t): 12
    Attack Submarine with guided missiles (diesel-electric, 3000t): 4
    Attack/BM Submarine (nuclear, 6000t): 6 (~Arihant or variant thereof)
    Heavy BM Cruiser (nuclear, 8000t): 4

    Target date: 2030

    This list includes the number of submarines that must be deployed at all times, and does not include submarines being serviced.
     
  15. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,893
    Likes Received:
    5,858
    Location:
    Kolkata
    So you would prefer P-75I to be for a Littoral sub of SMX-23/SMX-26 category, instead of the "bigger than the Scorpenes with VLS and AIP"?

     
  16. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,162
    Location:
    EST, USA
    P-75I is just the name of a project. I don't care what submarine comes under XYZ project.

    We need littoral subs for coastal defence. INS Arihant is simply not the size of a BM submarine, although it is being touted as one. Merely having nuclear power does not make it indefinitely submersible. A proper BM submarine must be able to house sailors and their rations for an extended period of time. For an effective second strike capability, India needs a cruiser, like the Akula Class, but considering the funds and infrastructure required, India should at least seek to build Nerpa Class sized BM submarines. The Arihant Class should be considered as a dual use platform for both Attack and BM role.
     
    arnabmit and Kunal Biswas like this.
  17. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    1,014
    Location:
    India
    Heavy Cruisers are passe. SSBN are ideal launch platform for nuke ICBM's. The keyword is stealth [/B, ]be it air-combat or naval engagements. IN's recent inductions evidently mirror this reality.

    Not sure, if littoral subs really fit in our sea-control doctrine. We procure subs at a very laggard pace so whatever we induct, should not have short-legs or even suffer from any obvious limitation. IN sea-control doctrine not allows for a lot of specialized ships like AD-ships etc. (that is, when it come principal combatants only, unlike corvettes).

    Subs of IN, despite considered as sea-denial platform, would be tasked to escort CBG's as well as carry out independent operations in deep oceans. This is the flexibility IN would not compromise upon. So, whatever few subs IN would eventually have, would be armed to the teeth & would be designed with deployment flexibility in mind. Our shipyards are also not really known for their efficiency in routine maintenance, so IN's few operational subs have a lot of water (read, sea-lanes) to cover.

    That is the rationale behind the general, multi-purpose nature of IN surface combatants. Our ships are, as a rule of thumb, more densely & heavily armed in comparison to ships of corresponding tonnage in the region. This is a given that the trend is only going to sustain itself.

    As for the rest, it is achievable within the specified time-frame (give or take 6 years).
     
  18. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    1,014
    Location:
    India
    This extended period was rarely more than 6 months for US/USSR subs. It was limited not by sub's capabilities but by endurance of its sea-men, & distant second factor was replenishment.
     
  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,162
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Endurance of humans can never be limited to 6 months. Where did you this information from? Do look up the records achieved in the Mir Space Station.

    We need larger submarines, with game rooms, saunas, artificial sunlight rooms, etc., to increase endurance.
     
    LETHALFORCE and sayareakd like this.
  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,162
    Location:
    EST, USA
    A heavy cruiser is an SSBN (e.g. Akula Class).


    True.

    Littoral submarines will not help our sea-control doctrine. They are required for coastal defence.
     
  21. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    248
    Location:
    US
    I figured you meant as much; but to mitigate confusion, use the term "cruiser" for large surface-combatants and refer to "Akula" by its NATO code-name, "Typhoon."
     

Share This Page