Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 cr

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by sasi, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. sasi

    sasi Senior Member Senior Member

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    As Vijay Mallya and his son Siddharth sit with a Rs 21 crore purse and seven cricketers he can sell to make some money in the IPL auction, India's public sector banks are struggling to recover even a fraction of their Rs 7000-crore loans from Mallya's grounded Kingfisher Airlines.
    As Vijay Mallya and his son Siddharth sit with a Rs 21 crore purse and seven cricketers he can sell to make some money in the IPL auction, India's public sector banks are struggling to recover even a fraction of their Rs 7000-crore loans from Mallya's grounded Kingfisher Airlines.
    Documents, forensic reports and accounts of people from across the world studied by dna reveal that members of the 17-bank consortium of lenders led by SBI may never be able to recover the money loaned to Mallya's airline.
    The State Bank of India(SBI), the major lender to Mallya's airline, till now has managed to recover only Rs 155 crore out of the Rs 1,623 crore due from it. dna has learnt from official SBI sources that the value of Kingfisher Airlines pledged to the bank has now plummeted from Rs 4,000 crore to Rs 6 crore! SBI is unable to find a single buyer for the 'Kingfisher' trademarks. And Kingfisher Airlines has told Indian courts that it is not in a position to payback its debts.
    According to the hypothecation deed signed between SBI and Kingfisher Airlines on August 10, 2010, SBI was given ownership of all trademarks and goodwill if Kingfisher Airlines failed to repay its debts.
    These included Fly Kingfisher (label mark & word), Flying Models, Fly The Good Times, Funliner & Kingfisher (label mark). In 2009, global consultancy firm Grant & Thronton valued Kingfisher trademarks at Rs 4,111 crore or roughly $1 billion. In 2012, when the airline's licence was suspended by India's aviation regulator Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), Kingfisher Airlines valued itself at Rs 3,008 crore. The current value of the trademarks now stands at a mere Rs 6 crore! "We have put it up for sale. But have not received any satisfactory responses till now," according to official bank sources.
    Year Brand value of Kingfisher Airlines Money owed to banks (estimated)
    2009: Rs 4,111 crore : Rs 4,000 crore
    2012: Rs 3,008 crore : Rs 7,000 crore
    2014: Rs 6 crore : Rs 7,000 crore
    The role of some banks is also quite suspicious. One of the banks under the radar of the CBIfor its loans to Kingfisher Airlines is IDBI. CBI sources reveal that IDBI had extended loans to Kingfisher despite being warned by some board members not to do so. The result is that the bank has ended up with bad debts of Rs 700 crore. Curiously, IDBI gave the loan to Kingfisher after being pledged the airline's now 'junk' trademarks worth a mere Rs 6 crore!
    Among the medium-sized banks, Bank of India is owed Rs 308 crore. The bank was mortgaged all the current assets of the airline. It included items like air conditioners, tractors and monetarily unsubstantial items like folding chairs. The bank has been struggling to recover even a fraction of its loan from the sale of Kingfisher's bag of random goodies. How could a bank give over Rs 300 crore after being pledged office stationary like boarding pass printers & folding chairs remains a mystery. BOI did not respond to dna's questions.
    Sumanto Bhattacharya, spokesperson of UB Group, denies manipulating the banks, "There is no question of any deliberate undervaluation by Kingfisher Airlines Ltd as the banks themselves had conducted their own due diligence including the security available and also satisfied themselves about the viability of Kingfisher Airlines Ltd before undertaking the debt restructuring."
    Documents accessed by dna show that Mallya had also given a personal guarantee of several other physical properties – one of which was his 'Hollywood' style Kingfisher Villa located at Candolim, Goa. SBI is awaiting a reply from the District Magistrate who has to give permission for police personnel to step in and help the bank recover the property. The application is yet to be even listed for hearing. Even if SBI gets physical possession of the property, all it will manage is to dent Mallya's ego. The value of the villa, though higher than Kingfisher trademarks, is barely a fraction of the Rs 1,600 crore that Mallya owes SBI.
     
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  3. sasi

    sasi Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    Another one of 'irrecoverable' properties was Kingfisher House, measuring over 17,000 square feet in Mumbai's suburban Andheri locality, which was given as a personal guarantee by Mallya. The property was originally hypothecated to Punjab National Bank in 2010 and Kingfisher Airlines owes the bank Rs 290 crore. Kingfisher Airlines refused to part with the property and the matter is currently listed in the Chief Metropolitan Court in Mumbai after SBI filed an application under the securitisation and reconstruction of financial assetsand enforcement of security interest (SARFAESI) Act, 2002.
    Sumanto Bhattacharya, spokesperson of the UB Group, denies playing hardball, "Kingfisher House is owned by Kingfisher Airlines Ltd and not Mallya. Kingfisher Villa is owned by United Breweries (Holdings) Ltd and not Mallya. In any case, Kingfisher Airlines Ltd is a party defendant to proceedings filed in the Goa courts by United Spirits Ltd in respect of Kingfisher Villa and since the matter being sub-judice it won't be appropriate to comment on it."
    Perhaps more curious is the case of Indian Overseas Bank. The airline owes IOB a sum of Rs 108 crore for which it had mortgaged two helicopters in 2008. IOB did not respond to dna's questions on the whereabouts of the choppers. It is believed that the Eurocopters were not in flying condition and the bank is struggling to dispose them of to recover its bad debts. IOB is now a loss-making bank having posted a Rs 516-crore loss this quarter.
    There are other smaller banks in the consortium which have lent money to Kingfisher Airlines after being pledged the airline's current assets. Central Bank of Indiagave a term loan of Rs 350 crore on the condition that all sale proceeds and lease rents would be remitted in an escrow account with the bank. The airline was grounded within a year and the bank couldn't recover the money. Banks like Corporation Bank, State Bank of Mysore and Vijaya Bank gave loans of close to Rs 400 crore after being pledged all movable assets, movable assets and plant & machinery of the airline.
    Many of the banks have reached a dead end. A realisation has dawned on them that Rs 7000 crore of public deposits they lent to Kingfisher Airlines have vanished in thin air. Chances of even recovering even a fraction of the amount seem to be fading by the day.
    TOMORROW: dna explores how Kingfisher Airlines leased almost a third of its fleet from offshore tax havens in Mauritius & Cayman Islandsand allegedly paid astronomical lease rents many times market rates to dubious above the companies.

    Of Rs 7,000 crore lent to Kingfisher, banks can now recover just Rs 6 crore | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
     
  4. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    Interest Rate - Countries - List

    look at all the countries with interest rate below 1%

    one cannot run a airline with leasing terms from banks in india and survive with the global players. also mallya expanded too quickly and it was not economically viable and he wanted a etihad savior and he went bust at wrong time - probably air asia would have come and joined with him. and i also believe that his use of "sexual" business characteristics was not appropriate. the latter probably had a karma effect (not sure if it is true though). but again sometimes i feel he was setup for the fall - especially if one looks at how is liqueur business has been taken away from him and was doing really well regionally and globally.
     
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  5. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    i also believe that his use of "sexual" business characteristics was not appropriate ?????


    be the what "sexual" business characteristics

    what was he doing i think is done by most of upper-uber rich middle class ,may not in open
     
  6. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    fall out of crony capitalism, nexus between politicians, industry and banking business. corporate houses keep looting indians and there is hardly a whimper in the media. state will use all its might to track down and squeeze out the last paise from a middle class guy who has taken a loan of a few thousand rupees.
     
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  7. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    i am referring to the more open characteristics where the business model was in conjunction with it and it was displayed for all to see. but frankly i do not think it was the primary reason for the airline failure it was because he expanded too fast and had poor leadership and team and also a sense of someone was out to take him down especially take out his expanding influence globally (liqueur business). the banks must have given the large loan believing that the business will succeed. when trouble faced the fan started going faster.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZAyVh6FrfE

    but sure like you are saying a most upper-uber rich middle class do the same. but i get a sense not all are successful and get a whack real hard that tears them away from their earlier higher trajectory:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the question is why are some still successful ... in fact mallya is still rich man and has formula 1. i would like him make a return but with a more professional and sophisticated approach.

    Agnès Poirier: Why the French aren't shocked by the affairs of Jacques the lad | World news | The Guardian

    nothing against the french and Italians bless them and also the above is from the web i am not sure how accurate it is. it is only just a line of thought i have along the lines of "if lust and greed (and anger)" that is the basis of our upbringing and important texts we learn when we are younger ...
     
  8. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    Now, this is a very valid point. Air France can pick up a loan for 2%, and run flights from Bangalore-Paris. Lufthansa can do that same for Bangalore-Frankfurt. Delta can do the same for Mumbai-Amsterdam-Portland.

    But KF needs to get a loan at 15%!! How can they ever compete with Air France,Cathay Pacific, Lufthansa, BA, etc.?

    Subramanian Swamy made the same point while arguing against FDI in retail. He said that Wal-mart picks loans at 3% in the US, pumps the money here, and makes use of Indian labour which is the cheapest in the world. Big bazaar needs to raise money at 15%. It is not a level playing field - that was the reason for his opposition. (please note, I am not saying whether I agree or disagree with him. Just telling you guys what he said).

    Views solicited from @Mad Indian, @Sakal Gharelu Ustad, @panduranghari, @pmaitra, @Singh, @Yusuf and all other economics enthusiasts.
     
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  9. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    If KF had a decent reputation it could have borrowed from anywhere in the world. A lot of Indian firms are actually doing that.

    But does it make sense? Since India does not use dollar, all such transactions involve huge exchange rate risk. When countries can hit their underbelly by using sovereign debt, you can't expect private companies to make merry for too long. Even Wal-mart would borrow in dollar and get return in rupees, so not such a nice proposition.
     
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  10. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    I cant understand what you are saying in this issue but can you explain more?
     
  11. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    From what I have heard from the Merchant association, the reason they are opposed to FDI is because it is not a level playing field for different reasons. They claim that CONdogs introduced several regulations on the retail industry(which is a huge step back from the reforms direction) while simultaneously asking for freeing up of FDI on retail.

    As you know, the more the regulations, the more it favors the big businesses against the small and medium businesses because small and medium businesses could not afford to pay for the regulations while the Big businesses can. So this FDI on retail as proposed by the CONdogs was not really a step forward, but merely an extension of crony capitalism. They would not mind the FDI in retail to even 105% if govt has no regulations on it

    That said, I think even with such biases, FDI on retail would be beneficial even if it is lopsided. The reasoning being- if the FDI on retail reduces the no. of jobs on the retail front and so it will free up people to engage in other forms of services which would otherwise be unmanned and hence un-available. The same reason etailing- which destroys jobs is what makes the economy more efficient and hence the economy more prosperous and the same reason why mechanisation which destroys jobs makes economy more efficient and hence the economy more prosperous.
     
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  12. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    Assume 1$ = 100rs on day1.
    interest rate in US=1% per day and India 10% per day

    Now you borrow 100rs or 1$ for a day at above mentioned interest rate. Logical thing to do is borrow in dollars and pay interest of 1rupee.

    But now, say on day2 there is a fluctuation in exchange rate market and now 1$=110rs. Since you borrowed in $, in the end you pay 1.01$>110rs. So exchange rate risk screwed you up. This is the reason it is not such a good idea to borrow in one currency and invest in another unless you have a very good reason that it would be beneficial to you.
     
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  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    And people think that Jobs are the factor which determines the economy. Thats wrong. Jobs are just an indicator in economics. The end result from the jobs - the services and goods we get is the one which is more important when determining the economic progress.

    For ex. Lets say there are two countries A and B each with a population of 1000 working members in 2015. For argument's sake lets take that they all manufacture only clothes.

    Now both countries take different routes to development(in this case manufaccturing clothes), A mechanises the industries because A found mechanisation to be cheaper and so more efficient and dint really care about the loss of jobs and B increases the no. of jobs by Human labor, because they thought that, mechanisation while efficient, decrease the no. of jobs and so concluded to save the jobs at the expense of efficiency and so in the same sectors
    |
    Now lets say that it takes 200 people to make 100 clothes and lets say that it costs 2 crores for that.

    Now the country B employed the 200 people to produce 100 clothes instead of mechanisation because they thought that mechanisation destroys jobs though they are cheaper . So after 10 years, country B produces 500 clothes with 1000 people at the cost of 10 crores, and so now has full employment

    Now the reason A mechanised was because the mechanisation with employment of just 100 people was 50% cheaper than the employing 200 people for the same job of producing 100 clothes and so for them it cost 1 crore for employing 100 people with machines to produce 100 clothes. So the country A after ten years, employed 800 people with mechanisation and produced 800 clothes at the price of just 8 crores. Now the country A has 200 unemployed people, but has saved 2 crores


    Now compare A and B. A has more unemployment but has more resources to consume, .ie (800 clothes as against the 500 clothes of B) and has saved 2 crore rupees for other future projects. B has full employment and has less resources to consume compared to A.

    Note that the average productivity of B is 0.5 clothes to a person. So to achieve the same level of consumption of an average person in B, the govt of A can fund a welfare for the unemployed 200 in its country at a rate of 0.5 clothes per person(.ie the wage he will earn had his country had not mechanised and had remained job oriented like B) . So now, after funding the welfare, govt A now produces 300 clothes in excess of govt B. and hence the country of A has on average a GDP of 0.8 clothes per capita while the country B has an economy of 0.5 clothes percapita, with A also having 2 crores in their foreign exchange or future expenditure account while B has none.


    So now tell me, which among the two countries A and B is better off economically? @Bangalorean
     
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  14. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    off topic but what where those regulations ????

    Why it wasnt brouth in public

    And what is status of fDI in retail now ..

    I have hard Modi gov is following UPA gov order that led state decided what they want with fdi in reatils

    so what status of fdi in ratil with all states of india
     
  15. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    apologies if reply that i write is a little long. i totally agree with you. but to overcome what you said the overseas large corporations make the use of currency derivatives (to hedge the currency fluctuation and have that interest rate benefit compared to in india (a bit like arbitrage) in their favor always) ... the overseas investment banks also are more sophisticated in offering financial engineering to overseas corporations compared to the indian investment banking available to indian corporations. they have the resources. for example the simplest is to borrow X at 0.25% and use a derivative and take a 1 year FD with 9% interest rate (even if tax is paid - many times it is not by overseas it is still a good free profit). the funny thing is the overseas investment banks have indians (since they are needed for backend and also frontend able to comprehend the complexities when required - and language helps) managing many of their desks and they are doing deals with overseas companies. all overseas companies approach investment banks first for raising money and not retail banks. in india it is the opposite (which is funny). it is easier for a overseas company to raise money from overseas compared to a indian company from overseas due to the credit, resources and banking facilities available to the overseas company. for a small to medium size indian company to develop a asset base overseas is difficult.

    overseas companies also make use of of transfer pricing and tax havens (like Mauritius and British channel islands etc) and it is even more in their favor. when they come to india it is sophisticated and they come prepared. it is generally much better for a company (overseas) to come in from a country with low interest rates (like below 1%) compared to a company in india with interest rate of 7% plus.

    the other line of thought (in india favor) is higher interest rate above 7% is good because it means only the best and most productive survive and higher margins are available because of need to keep the system in a inflationary trajectory. if you lower interest rate to near zero - any tom dick and harry will run a business and many will fail - probably not one vijay mallya but 1000's. also if the interest rates are low why bother going to india doing hard work and managing people when you can raise money easily and put it in the stock market (innovation can be hit). this is the whole fascination about quantitative easing and also if you look at japan (compare 1980s, 2007 and 2015). countries with low interest rates need to go overseas to maintain their growth and they want to come to india. that is why they are hesitant to lend to indian companies they want to lean to overseas companies to do that same work.

    there was a point where it said why indian companies do not go overseas and do that. it is possible but it is much more difficult compared to how overseas companies can raise money and come into india. it is like asking a overseas company to take a loan from a local bank here. a lot of large indian companies are doing this now especially from Singapore, japan, PRC but it is not sophisticated and it is not done by local investment advisory and many times the money generated does not return to india but is parked overseas. we also need to talk about regulations and how restrictive overseas areas are to the blue indian passport. there is also this issue of tax havens with indian money overseas. their is also past history (uncomfortable) for that where a lot of listed companies issues stock currency convertible bonds and got smacked with the currency fluctuations and market nonperformance and a lot of debt was created on their books which many are still carrying and have rolled over. i am against lowering interest rates too much in india keep it above 6% because it takes away the crazies who are risk takers without good professional thoughts. i totally agree the indian companies ought to raise money from overseas but they ought to go and buy overseas assets and use the asset creation and market capitalization and profits and performance to build up indian operations. diversification needs to be in built into the indian corporate mentality. and there is europe, africa, middle east where they can focus also. a good example is Tata what they did are doing with Jaguar and little extent what Hindalco did and also the IT companies. indian companies and people that run them are run well are world beaters and we need to stop thinking how to make it more easy for outsiders to come in but start thinking on making it easier for us to go outside. it has to work both ways. we must not be restrictive but we must also demand openness outside. ideally the overseas FDI that comes in has to indian overseas FDI.
     
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  16. sasi

    sasi Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    This thread is abt looting public money.



    Ps-Q's wheather nda will cleanchit to npa(non-performing asset) or punish them?

    Or sit on it without taking any decision!
     
  17. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    Thanks for adding to the discussion.

    Ofcourse, if there is a risk then there would be some intruments to mitigate it. But all I wanted to say it is not 1% vs 10%. If one uses the right hedging strategy, risk can be reduced but it is still significant. If it were so simple, overseas banks would just invest in India themselves and make a lot of money!!

    But yes, as Indian firms grow they would increase their global footprint and better manage their risk and borrow/invest in multiple countries.
     
  18. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    i believe what the india industry did and pumped out the below beauty is what we need to look at (with reference to how to deal with NPAs):

    Tech Mahindra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    we need to create more mechanism where corporate restructuring is built into the corporate financial landscape here and also punishing people who misbehave with large corporate responsibility. punish the people that do wrong but dont always think what they created and did is waste.

    also

    for the above airline related industry:

    with kingfisher the whole airline industry needs to be cleared and cleaned up to make it more systematic (one knows what will happen tomorrow) and without undue regulations. the reason why we are not doing that for example compared to Telecom (BSNL, MTNL are present) and IT industry (no large government entity) is because of one big elephant in the room and it is:

    [​IMG]

    (where does Air India finance its planes compared what Kingfisher did).

    and funny enough making sure Air India survives at the expense of others has nothing to do with economics but actually about sovereignty and foreign relations. I agree we need to have a strong Air India. But it needs to be competitive and run well. I am sure it can be done with other (and more) Indian private players (who ought to go overseas and buy airlines and not vice versa)
     
  19. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    totally agree with what you said. that is the beauty of economics and global trade. only adding a little to what you said (i am not a economist but like to read about it from time to time - i accept i might not be absolutely right):

    i would say it is easy and overseas money does come into india to make easy money. but it is not large scale and large overseas banks (even pension funds) dont come to india in a big way. also there is a time element to this. when overseas money comes into india it expands the economic base (banks will lend more in india) but only for a certain amount of time. this is the thought i am sure that if X amount comes in india from overseas - india will get to use that amount but X+A amount will be taken out. the problem is that overseas companies can come in and also go out (easily). in fact they add royalty terms and take money out when such profits ought to be kept here. if you look at many of the stock companies in india they have large FDI and foreign investors and the prices of the underlining is high. but how do you value the underlying. it must not be easier for overseas company to do business in india compared to local business in india. for example in approvals and choices available. i agree we must not be too protective but we really need to loose the mindset that overseas money is our solution. we need start making our money go overseas and create overseas assets. we need to create a sophisticated trade policy and approach where it is not only "make in india" (local india production) but "go with india" (for overseas countries that take india investment).
     
  20. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Re: Of Rs 7,000cr lent to Kingfisher,banks can now recover just Rs 6 c

    You can also pick up loan at 3%. Issue is currency fluctuation.
     
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