Odds against an Asian Maskirova

Soham

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I just took your example of china's fear of every one and hence cultivating rogue allies.China is fearful of everyone.its is fearful of itself.Pakistan is just low cost method for china to keep india down and get it boxed into south asia only.coz even china knows that direct wars with india will be devastating for itself too in present scenario.coz todays india china war wont be limited to himalayan border alone it will be fought on every front where one party will see upper hand over the other in order to relieve pressure.
It will very well be fought on the Himalyan border. I'll see if I can dig up an old thread which dealt with the reasons.

Yes sure.It was china who started cultivating allies against india after 1962.india didnt cultivate any allies till 1971 when it found itself cornered by west-china- pak alliance over east pakistan issue so in desperation india signed treaty with ussr.Now today china is fearful of ind-usa partnership(i wont call it alliance.coz india Usa could never be allies in real sense.its just the convergence of issues that brings india-usa together.)./but then china is fearful of this partnership hence for last 2 years we are seeing chinese antics on north-east borders.The thing to remember is that these borders were quite for almost 30 yrs even if there where some minor intrusions but then chinese hysteria increased after indo-usa nuke deal.If china is fearful of india and it cultivates alliance against india.then india too is fearful of chinese machinations in its own backyard.hence it is looking for mutual alliance.remember its two way street.If china would have resisted the temptation of allying with pak against india back in 1960's we would have seen some solution on the india-china issues.but with all those 50 years of distrust makes any indian weary of chinese intentions.ON china or even with pakistan indian only reacts to their actions it never proactively took actions.
Hysteria exists on both sides of the border. We've talked too much about distrust. Is that it ? Or are their more complex reasons behind such a jeopardized relationship..?

fairy tales given by some indian belonging to left communists parties that india-china or india-pak alliance will be some game changer to the world.
I assure you, I'm not one of them.

before diplomatic will to develope there has to be environment of mutual trust which i dont see developing.there were some positive steps taken when rajiv ghandhi after him pv narashima rao visited china.vajpayee went further more by going soft on recognizing tibet issue as china went soft on sikkim in 2002-2003.But since 2009 we are seeing sikkim and arunachal pradesh againg getting propped up by china.So we do get indian reaction in terms of allowing his holiness Dalailama to tawang.if india will see china pushing itself again india will sure rollback the tibet issue.
Nor do I. We'll have to choose between China and Dalai Lama.
 

ajtr

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It will very well be fought on the Himalyan border. I'll see if I can dig up an old thread which dealt with the reasons.
well i'll wait for your reasons likewise i would like to respond to them.



Hysteria exists on both sides of the border. We've talked too much about distrust. Is that it ? Or are their more complex reasons behind such a jeopardized relationship..?
trust itself a complex thing and it is the foundation in any relationship/partnership.And if foundation itself is weak then we can expect how the partnership will be.



I assure you, I'm not one of them.
Glad to hear that you are not B.S.Raghvan



Nor do I. We'll have to choose between China and Dalai Lama.
Well again a question of trust.And for this i would like that indian political establishment keep supporting His holiness Dalai lama.
 

Soham

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Most importantly, we don't have a common enemy. Terrorism is only seen as a "potential" threat to China. And China's other "enemies" are friends of India.
Very right. Thanks for pointing that out clearly. A common front for political co-operation is a necessity for any alliance to withstand the test of time.
 

Singh

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Theoretically a Pan-Asian organization to

1. Serve and protect Asian interests in global fora
2. Combat terrorism
3. Form a cartel to exploit vital resources
4. Provide an alternative global currency

Can work extremely well.
 

Vinod2070

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^^I think Asian nations have to start thinking win win for that.

I doubt we are there yet. This can only happen at a small scale now.
 
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Theoretically a Pan-Asian organization to

1. Serve and protect Asian interests in global fora
2. Combat terrorism
3. Form a cartel to exploit vital resources
4. Provide an alternative global currency

Can work extremely well.
Good points Singh
1. The Shanghai corp had the potential but failed to expand and look beyond energy deals
2. For the cartel to be strong all members would have to be anti terrorism not halfway or be a lackeye for anyone or everyone some countries would not be members
3. The resource cooperation has been good between India and China and this is the biggest fear in the west, instead of warring for resources like Europeans we have cooperated.
4. An alternative global currency is needed now India,Russia,China all asked for this but once the dollar is no longer the fiat currency it would end USA's reign as the sole economic power or the top rung and i don't think USA will ever accept this, but in all practicality another global currency is needed for the simple fact that nothing supports the dollar any longer no longer backed by gold and USA is running excessive defecits.
 

Yusuf

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China is a userper of land. It did it with Tibet and laid claims to land of india and many others in east asia. So there in lies a problem. We can never have a settlement of the border issue which will remain a flash point in the future as well.

In spite of all these problems we have trade growing at the rate of knots. So what's to be done is that india finds a pakistan for china. Bog it down there so that it doesn't bother us here as far as military adventure is concerned and then carry on trade like nothing has happened. Win win.
 

Vinod2070

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So what's to be done is that india finds a pakistan for china. Bog it down there so that it doesn't bother us here as far as military adventure is concerned and then carry on trade like nothing has happened. Win win.
There are not too many Pakistans to go round. Countries that are so full of hate that they don't care if they go down, if only they think they can keep others down.

China's neighbors all hate China but are still engaging with her for mutual benefits. Even Taiwan does business with them.

China has been threatening to militarily take over tiny Taiwan for decades but can't manage it. Some Chinese on the net have gone berserk wih the recent Chinese successes. Reality is still different.
 
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Yusuf

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Well but for their pacifist religious beliefs' we could have used the tibetans for mutual benefit. Even then the chinese are scared of the tibetans. Imagine what it would have been like if they had taken armed revolt?
 

Vinod2070

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The Chinese with their contempt for human rights would have simply crushed any armed resistance ruthlessly.

The Tibetans are doomed along with the Uighurs. Nothing they can do will change the outcome. Even the world has sold them to the Chinese.
 

amoy

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my friends, u seem at your wit's end, running into blind alleys. I 'd probably nod if u say Japan for China can be like Pakistan for India. But your wild thought as below simply get astray
China's neighbors all hate China but are still engaging with her for mutual benefits.
frankly quite contradictory to my experience........... have u been in Burma or Vietnam or Thailand? is there such a 'hate'? are u aware overseas Chinese play a significant role in ASEAN countries?

chinese are scared of the tibetans
that's your wishful thinking... perhaps u heard enough of the version of story told by Tibetans in exile OUTSIDE of China, but not the other side of the story
Charity Case
Whether they like it or not, China has been very good for Tibetans.

Since 2001, Beijing has spent $45.4 billion on development in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). (That's what the Chinese government calls Tibet, even though many Tibetans live in neighboring provinces, too). The effect: double-digit GDP growth for the past nine years. About a third of the money went to infrastructure investment, including the train connecting Beijing to Lhasa. "A clear benefit of the train was that it makes industrial goods cheaper for Tibetans, who, like everyone else in the world, like household conveniences, but normally had to pay very high prices," said Ben Hillman, a Tibet expert from the Australian National University's China Institute. The train also provides an opportunity for Tibetan goods to be sold outside of the region and for a massive increase in number of tourists, reaching more than 5.5 million in 2009—up from close to 2 million in 2005, the year before the train. The Chinese government's Tibet tourism bureau expects the numbers to keep climbing. While Tibetan independence groups like Free Tibet raise sustainability concerns about the increase in tourism, Hillman points out that "tourism is an important industry that can benefit local Tibetans."

Infrastructure improvements have not only helped grow the economy but also have aided in modernizing remote parts of the Tibetan plateau, an area with 3 million people about twice the size of France. Paved roads allow herders easier access to hospitals and the capital, where they sell handicrafts. "Cellphone service in parts of western Tibet is better than in parts of New Jersey," said Gray Tuttle, an assistant professor of modern Tibetan studies at Columbia University.

Since 2006, the Chinese central government has been shifting its Tibet development strategy from funding massive infrastructure projects to programs intended to bring greater benefit to individual Tibetans. While Han migrants may compete for jobs with Tibetans in urban areas, diffusing the benefits more broadly among Chinese, the net per-capita income of rural residents was $527 in 2009, an increase of more than 13 percent from the 2008 figure and the fourth year in a row where growth exceeded 13 percent. While still low, it represents an increase in wealth creation at the lowest levels. Although Chinese statistics on Tibet, like Chinese statistics in general, are impossible to verify, it seems clear that material living standards among the 80 to 90 percent of the population living in rural Tibet are rising rapidly.

"I was amazed at the amount of money actually being spent in these villages," said Melvyn Goldstein, codirector of the Center for Research on Tibet at Case Western Reserve University. Through extensive rural fieldwork in the TAR, Goldstein found that "health-insurance plans are getting better, bank loans are now more accessible, schooling is free for primary school and middle school, and access to electricity and water is improving." At the improved schools, students learn Mandarin, which gives Tibetans access to work opportunities in government offices in Tibet and in companies throughout China.

Last month, President Hu Jintao held the Communist Party's fifth Tibet planning conference, the first since 2001, to strategize on the upcoming years. He said that Tibetan rural income will likely match China's average by 2020. And he stressed the need for Tibet, beset by the "special contradiction" of the Dalai Lama, to develop using the "combination of economic growth, well-off life, a healthy eco-environment, and social stability and progress."

It's true that, so far, all the money has failed to buy Tibetan loyalty. Beijing won't deal with the Dalai Lama, even though Tibetans revere him, nor will it let his monastic followers build any power or voice any nationalist sympathy. Instead, the government is offering Tibetans the same bargain it has offered the rest of the country: in exchange for an astronomical rise in living standards, the government requires citizens to relinquish the right to free worship and free speech. The Chinese government has kept its end of the deal. Even if Tibetan residents never signed the contract, they have benefited from its enforcement—a fact Obama might keep in mind when he meets the Dalai Lama.
Economy is the key for pacifying and integration, man!
 
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Vinod2070

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my friends, u seem at your wit's end, running into blind alleys. I 'd probably nod if u say Japan for China can be like Pakistan for India. But your wild thought as below simply get astray

frankly quite contradictory to my experience........... have u been in Burma or Vietnam or Thailand? is there such a 'hate'? are u aware overseas Chinese play a significant role in ASEAN countries?
I have been to Thailand but didn't get around to discuss the Chinese with them. ;)

The Vietnamese can't stand you, I personally know that from talking to people from that country.

I know that the Chinese play a big role in their economies and that doesn't take away from the fact that all your neighbors are hostile. The Burmese people included.

that's your wishful thinking... perhaps u heard enough of the version of story told by Tibetans in exile OUTSIDE of China, but not the other side of the story
Charity Case
Whether they like it or not, China has been very good for Tibetans.



Economy is the key for pacifying and integration, man!
Their problems with China are not economic and the issue will not be solved by economics either. China may suppress the Tibetans who have been forsaken by the world, they will never be able to make them Chinese. Because they are not, have never been.
 

amoy

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Of course there're historical bitterness, territorial disputes, competition and always dissident voices within these ASEAN countries. However that doesn't necessarily determine their overall state strategy.

Below links as reference for u to draw your own conclusions regarding China's relationship with ASEAN and whether such tactics of making them 'proxies' to contain China would work
Sino-Burma pipelines
Chinese Influence in Burma Increases: Webb
China-ASEAN FTA to accelerate RMB regionalization

Their problems with China are not economic and the issue will not be solved by economics either. China may suppress the Tibetans who have been forsaken by the world, they will never be able to make them Chinese. Because they are not, have never been.
I don't mean to be offensive. But is your assertion also valid above when the word Tibet is replaced by Kashmir or Assam (u certainly have a far more profound understanding of their past and present), and China replaced by India??
Economy certainly is not the cure-all. But don't u agree when people get more affluent and status quo gets cozy, those extreme thought gets less 'seductive'??

U disagree Tibetans are also Chinese. Fine. That depends on your reading of history.
Zahir ud-din Muhammad Babur (February 23 [O.S. February 14] 1483 — January 5 [O.S. December 26 1530] 1531) was a Muslim conqueror from Central Asia who, following a series of setbacks, finally succeeded in laying the basis for the Mughal dynasty of India. He was a direct descendant of Timur through his father, and a descendant also of Genghis Khan through his mother.[1] Babur identified his lineage as Timurid and Chaghatay-Turkic, while his origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture and so he was largely responsible for the fostering of this culture by his descendants, and for the expansion of Persian cultural influence in the Indian subcontinent, with brilliant literary, artistic, and historiographical results.[2][3]
do u think Mughal rulers were also Indians though they were once 'foreign'? We're consequences of history, the same is true of Tibet and China connection.
 
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Yusuf

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what happened 500 years ago dont stand as a pretext for modern usurping of land. Tibet was illegally occupied by the Chinese and the world sucked up on that. If you were not scared of the harmless Tibetans you would be crying hoarse every time some world leader wants to meet the Dalai Lama.
 

Vinod2070

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Frankly, I see no parallel between Tibet and Assam or Kashmir.

China is tryin to expand outwards from the natural homelands of the Han Chinese which are much to the East compared to the current Chinese frontiers.

One just has to look at where the great wall of China was built to protect the Chinese from the "barbarians". A look at the Chinese populaton density tells the same story.



So, Tibet and Xinxiang are examples of Chinese outreach to non Chinese regions.

In contrast, India has only retreated from her former boundaries which extended much further to the East and West.
 

amoy

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I appreciate your knowledge about China's history and geography.

To some degree I agree with a few of your points - China or Chinese is not a static concept geographically and historically and even ethnically but evolving all the time. Being 'patriotic' doesn't imply we have to distort history to serve our point.

Han Chinese, being the largest group in China, in fact have assimilated/naturalized lots of ethnic groups before it finally took shape through thousands of years. The same is true of other 55 ethnic groups here.

In my opinion, Your starting point is wrong logically , i.e. Chinese = Han Chinese, China = Where Han dominated. Your logic sounds like Indians = Hindu, India = Hindustan, then what about non-Hindu?

One just has to look at where the great wall of China was built to protect the Chinese from the "barbarians".
The Wall was built before birth of Christ or before Qin Dynasty. then 'barbarian' was used historically by Central Empire for those they felt un-civilized and inferior before a present-day China came into being!

Again, I say it depends on your interpretation of history! There was no China in the long history - but numerous states/dynasties/ethnic groups competed on this land we call China today until a modern 'China' and 'Chinese' took shape in Qing Dynasty who wrapped many parts in including Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and Outer Mongolia (independent 1940's) and beyond. This Qing Dynasty was founded by MANCHURIAN in alliance with Mongolians i/o Han. We regard both ruling Manchurian/Mongol and Han as Chinese !

When we refer to present-day China it certainly includes all parts INSIDE and OUTSIDE of the Great Wall. Somehow u mixed 'Historical China' with "Present-day China' when referring to Great Wall or 'barbarian'.

Xinjiang - look at History of Xinjiang
Han Dynasty (206 BC - AD 220), was wrestling with Hun (Xiongnu, later Hun swept the Europe) for control of present-day Xinjiang also before Christ. Han (ethnic) took its name Han from Han Dynasty. Then , how came your conclusion below??
Tibet and Xinxiang are examples of Chinese outreach to non Chinese regions.



.............sighing


Do we sound like talking about who the Americans are? Are only native Indians called Americans (today)?
 
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Vinod2070

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Actually, I agree with you to the extent that these topics are not very simple. A lot depends on how you chose to look at the issue and the context.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for the Chinese people and civilization. I know that it was never perfect (no civilization ever was) and there was a lot of exploitation of the underclass and a very rigid hierarchy but it also had some great achievements under its belt.

I see a lot of parallels with India in the Chinese history. The current rivalry or animosity among a small section of people (but more at the establishment level) seems so artificial when one looks at the thousands of years of peaceful coexistence. Of course one reason was that the Himalayas formed a natural barrier and the Tibet region served as a buffer which is now broken.

I hope China and India can cooperate more rather than compete or worse treat each other an enemy.
 

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