Number of BVR missiles carried by Fighter Planes

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by fulcrum, Sep 12, 2013.

  1. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    Number of BVR missiles carried by fighters.

    [​IMG]
    http://i48.tinypic.com/98c35u.jpg

    -------------------------------------

    Su-35S
    http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/Su-35-KNAAPO-Brochure-Loadouts-2008.png

    F/A-18E/F
    http://www.ausairpower.net/USN/000-Super-Bug-loadout.jpg


    -------------------------------------


    Su-30MKI
    http://s16.postimage.org/rz94whu0l/RVV_AEE.jpg
    http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/os_su3.jpg
    http://i48.tinypic.com/34gq729.jpg

    F-22A (F-22 can actually carry 14 missiles, but this configuration has its drawbacks since the fuel tanks and the missiles have to be ejected together! The practical config is only 10 missiles)
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-22-weaps-mg27.gif

    Rafale-C
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qrjFeNOsu...-Lop664Cg/s1600/lunapic_129438360710755_2.gif

    F-18C/D
    http://www.ausairpower.net/USN/000-Super-Bug-loadout.jpg
    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/amraam-dvic408.jpg

    MiG-29M/M2/K
    http://i45.tinypic.com/wwkejc.jpg

    Eurofighter
    http://www.on-target-aviation.com/Assetts/images/TYPHOON LOADOUT CHART copy.jpg

    F-15E/K
    http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=102

    F-16 Block 50/52/60
    http://i45.tinypic.com/33n92f8.jpg

    F-35A/B/C
    http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/f35-loadout1.gif


    -------------------------------------


    MiG-29SMT/UPG
    http://i45.tinypic.com/wwkejc.jpg

    F-16 Block MLU/30/32/40/42
    http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=103


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    MiG-21 Bison
    http://rapidshare.com/files/212439857/Famous_Russian_Aircraft_MiG_21.rar

    Gripen C (got a better source?)
    Saab JAS 39 Gripen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    MiG-23MLD
    http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/mig23/mig23_40.jpg

    J-10A (J-10, like the F-16 and JF-17, cannot carry BVR missiles in its inner most wing pylons. It got over this problem of just 2 BVR missile stations by adding dual racks. It now carries 4 BVR missiles. There was a mock-up of J-10 carrying PL-11 and PL-12 back in 2003, but that configuration never materialized into reality.)
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i7JKXWaFJ...+HMS+IFR++aesa+radar+fighter+jet+aircraft.jpg


    -------------------------------------


    JF-17 (JF-17, like the F-16 and J-10, cannot carry BVR missiles in its inner most wing pylons. There was a pic in 2008 which showed it carrying one in its innermost wing pylon, but that configuration never materialised. http://i47.tinypic.com/2e240er.jpg Dubai Airshow 2011 and PAC's website updated in 2011 confirms it can only carry 2 at the moment. Apart from some Computer Graphics(CGs), JF-17 with Dual racks has never been spotted.)
    http://i.imgur.com/0nADz.jpg
    Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

    MiG-23MF/ML
    http://i45.tinypic.com/6qkx7r.jpg

    Su-15TM (got a better source?)
    Sukhoi Su-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
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  3. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    There are several types of these missiles. Would it be important to specify type in the table above?

    AIM-54 Phoenix
    AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Missile
    Astra missile
    Derby missile
    MBDA Meteor
    MBDA MICA
    Mitsubishi AAM-4
    Novator K-100
    PL-12 (SD-10)
    Skyflash
    AIM-7 Sparrow
    Sky Sword II
    Vympel R-27
    Vympel R-33
    Vympel R-37
    Vympel R-77
     
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  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    The number of BVRAAMs carried is not an important factor considering the multi-role nature of fighters today.
     
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  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Agree. A number like 10 or 12 carried sounds very good, but heavier load means less agility, less range and because of their cost they cannot simply be fired off at will. Besides, some missiles have a "pylon life" because of which live missiles carried and not used will become useless anyway after a pre-set number of hours of live carriage.
     
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  6. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    @bennedose

    Su-35 can carry 14 at max. MKI can carry 12.

    MKI,
    [​IMG]

    Anyway operationally deployed missile configurations are different.

    For eg: MKI is always cleared for 8 missiles carriage, sometimes 12, but not always.

    Super Hornet will almost never carry more than 6 operationally. It is not operationally certified to carry beyond 6.

    Rafale is a bit more flexible depending on mission requirements. 6 missiles at worst because tanks take up space for 4 missiles.

    Mirage-2000/Mig-29 and other smaller fighters will carry 4 missiles. Mig-21 will carry only 2 and so on.
     
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  7. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    This thread is about BVRAAMs, aka R-77. MKI can only carry 6...

    [​IMG]

    M2000 air interdiction loadout is 6 Mica with 3X 2000L tanks.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    R-73 is a BVRAAM. It is the same size and capability as a MICA IR.

    2+2 is the operational loadout, with only a tank in the center pylon + 2 other tanks. 6 missiles is a photo-op picture for fans.

    As for MKI, try again.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
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  9. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    BVR range is 37km, R-73 is 30km head on max and 15km chase. MICA IR has the same range as RH, 70km+ head on and 40-50km chase which is a true BVRAAM.

    [​IMG]

    Photo op? Try again... air interdiction is 6 A2A missiles... always has been.

    [​IMG]

    Even old school M2000 with Super 530D carried 6 missiles, now all are replaced with MICA.

    You try again, those aren't even real.
     
  10. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    BVR range is 18 Km. Go read up.

    MICA is a 50Km missile. It is 100Kg. R-77 is 175 Kg. Aim-120C-1/4 is 150 Kg. Aim-120C-8 is 225 Kg. R-73 is 105 Kg. Magic does not propel missiles. So the amount of propellent used will be limited for both R-73 and MICA. Considering the weight of R-73 and MICA, both should have the same capability. It is common sense.

    Air interdiction is not the right term. It is a completely different state, where you need to carry air to ground munitions.

    Anyway, no it is not. Operational missiles are 2+2 and 4+2, almost always 2+2. 4+2 is as rare as MKI with 6+4, 8+4 or 6+6. So, yeah, photo-op.

    It is not about real or fake. The pylons are designed to carry 8 R-77s. You just posted nonsense loadouts which ignores 2 of the inner pylons for R-77s, which is wrong anyway.

    An image with R-77s on inner pylons.

    [​IMG]

    Replace the innermost R-73 rounds with R-77, like the previous picture I posted and you will get 8 R-77s. That gives an 8+4 config.

    Multi-ejector racks are present on Su-35 for the center pylons, so add 2 more R-77s. That makes it 10, whenever the Super MKI program starts.
     
  11. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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  12. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    By BVR missiles I'm talking about missiles greater than 37~40km. Not less than that.

    Not included in the above list are R-73s and Aim-9x and other assorted SRAAMs.

    I have included proof for my list in the first post itself and still ppl 'debate' on the number of missiles carried. MKI can carry 4 R-27s and 6 R-77s, or 10 R-77s. Included both the proofs.

    In the SU-35S, the official brochure GLARINGLY gives the full 12 BVRAAMs loadout for all to see. + 2 SRAAMS.. that's a total of 14 AAMs.

    An MKI carrying all 12 missiles(10 BVRAAMS + 2 SRAAMs) will weigh less than 2 tonnes, compare that of its maximum payload capacity of 8 tonnes. More safer than carrying Air-Ground weaponry!! Where some SINGLE pylons are strained to carry close to 1.5 tonnes!! Such Full out air-air loadouts are employed during scramble missions. And in the real world, it is not 1 missile per enemy jet, but rather 2 or 3 per jet to increase the probablity of a hit. During the cold war, NATO strike packages into enemy territory called for 4X Wild Weasels, 4X Ground Strike, 8X Air Escort. And this is the STANDARD package. If the area is heavily defended those 16 intruding enemy aircrafts can easily climb up. Taking the standard package, 16 X 3 = 54 missiles for Air-Patrols and scramble missions to tackle. VVS doctrine calls for launching 1 Semi-Active and 1 Infrared Guided BVRAAM in close succession at the enemy fighter. Followed by the same when the missiles reach more than 50% of the distance to the enemy targets. They obeserve the time and thereby the distance covered by the missile by a standardised clock they have in their cockpits. That's a total of 4 missiles per enemy bandit under ideal conditions! IAF inherited that doctrine and employs 1 semi-active and 1 IR guided missile, no 50% distance and launch again as far as I know. Now with Active BVR missiles, maybe it currently employs 1 semi active, 1 IR and 1 Active in quick succession, since R-77s hit probability is lesser than R-27s, by the Russia's own admission!
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Sorry, but that is incorrect. BVR and WVR are differentiated due to human limitations. At best, from a great height, the pilot is expected to see around 18 Km with his eyes, that's why it is called Within Visual Range. Above 18 Km, it becomes Beyond Visual Range.

    With max ranges of 18Km, Aim-9X and Python V are true WVR missiles while MICA IR and R-73 are BVR missiles.

    If there is a human who can see up to 37 Km, then it is better to call him Superman.
     
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  14. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    In a situation like Iraq, where the US and its allies created a "no fly zone" BVRmissiles were ideal because anything detected flying in that zone would be shot down. But in the case of a 1965 or 1971 type conflict with Indian attack aircraft swarming over Pakistani skies, there is no way an Indian AWACS can direct Indian interceptors to simply shoot down anything flying over Pakistan at BVR ranges.

    Yes of course all targets can be interrogated for IFF, but attacking Indian aircraft may be damaged (electronics damaged) and may not respond appropriately to IFF or they may be short of fuel due to unexpected reasons and may be flying over areas that should be no fly zones. It would be totally disastrous to shoot down one of our own with a BVR and improper identification.
     
  15. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Actually it's not that simple.

    http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedfiles/archives/adams_center/essaycontest/20042005/higbyp_0405.pdf
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The risks are the same for any side. Failure of IFF has happened to the Americans too.

    They have had "fratricides" even in training exercises like Red Flag.
     
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