Not battle-ready before 2027, admits Indian Army

AJSINGH

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you are wrong we dont have modern tanks, we have few hundred T 90 tanks and very few Arjun tanks, only few of the T 72 tanks have got night fighting capabilities.

Problems with T 90 tanks, IA dont want to discusses these or even admit those exists.

Therefore we are in for very very big trouble.........
Main Battle Tanks
Arjun MBT Mk1 - main battle tanks (45+). The Army has ordered production of this tank and the first batch of 53 of the ordered 124 tanks has already rolled out of the Avadi factory and are currently being put through trials to check the quality control of the production process. The remaining tanks will follow thereafter. Indian Army raised First Arjun Regiment. 79 more to join before December 2009. 12 pre-production and 12 of limited series production are already with Army.
T-90S Bhishma - main battle tanks (667). Over 1000 (excluding 347 plus 310 Russian-made T-90) more T-90S will be manufactured in India by 2020. India signed a new contract for 347 additional T-90 tanks from Russia, total of 1657 within 2020.
T-72 M1 (2485+)[4] 968 T72M1 have been upgraded by the Heavy vehicles factory (HVF), While requests for proposal for upgrading approximately 1000 other T-72's have been sent to various firms in Israel, Russia, Poland and France.
T-55 (900): Some of the T-55 tanks will be attached to infantry brigades and battalions as Tarmour AFV's since despite their vintage, the 105 mm L7 gun has substantial firepower.[4]
Vijayanta -(1800) Reserve--- 800 of these have been heavily upgraded. 100 converted to Catapult self propelled 130mm gun by wikipedia ( Equipment of the Indian Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
T-90s is the best tank we have got and in some ways better than M1 abhrams
 

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Stupid article.

1. actual quantities not factored in
2. actual quantities not factored in
3. actual quantities not factored in
4. actual quantities not factored in

The several million strong Indian armed forces even @ 10% capability will still be counted in the top 10. Indian armed forces is an absolute leviathan.

However Indian armed forces have not been able to operate at their maximum capability as per plan, a plan which envisages them as a superpower(blue water navy, credible nuclear deterrent, boomers, aircraft carriers,5th gen crafts,bmd shield etc.).
This is no secret, this fact is well documented and has been subject of debates in many a dfi threads too.
 

AJSINGH

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Are they talking about a war against whole world??? with 50% capability it is World fourth largest army. And 2027???? My God.
IA being fourth largest army does not help much . if you dont have transport facilities or required helicopter to save lives , it does not really amount much Whwne you have to mobalise large forces you need some basic requirment such as rapid mass transport ( something like 3 squadrons of C-17 heavy lift or thorough rail network which incidently we do not have neither we have good road transport infastructure along the border )IA does not have close support helcopters let alone helicopter to resque the wounded ,we have not got our basic weaposn right that is the assult rifle and the grenade , 4billion artillery project is alright but where are the basic equipment and IA has always reuquested fund from the central govermant but turned down everytime thanks to our carelss politcians they dont understand war what they understand is the money which they get from defense procurment ( read bofors scandal) neither do thay understand war tactics or the consequences of war ( read IA troops were sent in Sri lank to kill LTTE and what happened they got butchered instead ). A war is won politically but with much loss of life army sees that as a faliure and the enemy is convinced that they have killed many soilders , so 50% efficieny is not good in any way .
What can be done about it ?

1- Replacing INSAS with Ak 47 whcih have laser targeting and grenade launcher
2- Buying new pieces of artillery which is being done but should be done fast
3- Dedicated attack helicopters with the IA such as Hind and Mi 24 which can resque and as well as attack ,why attack helicopters should be with IA because the reaction time is faster and you dont have to ask the GOI for IAF to help
4-Upgrading all the T-72m to night fighting capabilities as well us inducting T-90s as fast as possible
4- Dedicated air transport for short distances with the help of heavy lify helicopters
5- Developing rail infastructure along the border or atleats near to it , it will do double advantage, help connect remote parts with rest of india and fast deployment of troops

above all we need strong politican who will not succumb to any external pressure and give the required funds to the IA
 

Yusuf

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AJ, the Indian army knows what's to be done. What you have mentioned is just part of it. No army on the world can say they are absolutely prepared for any war as circumstances change. Even the mighty US army feels it does not have enough. The good thing is that inspite of all the short comings, the IA protects the nation. The very Insas rifle that you want to be replaced, did absolutely well in Kargil, ask Brig Ray who served in that war.
 

Ray

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Reports have appeared in a section of the media regarding the Army not being fully combat ready and shortfall in the full battle preparedness.

It is clarified that modernisation is a deliberate process and is progressive in nature, the deficiency of the military hardware is reviewed at regular intervals and replacement of these are projected after deliberation based on the operational requirement and enhancement of operational efficiency keeping pace with modernization. Projection of military hardware requirements has already been made and these are at various stages of procurement. The Defence Procurement Procedure is also amended periodically to ensure transparency and effectiveness in procurement.

It is further clarified that the combat efficiency of the Army at no point be doubted as the military preparedness and combat efficiency is the foremost and primary task. There has been no compromise in this issue. The progress of modernization is monitored closely at various levels to minimize the shortfall.

It may also be understood that our Armed Forces are fully prepared, battle-worthy and capable to counter any challenges at very short notice, in keeping with the task assigned to defend the Nation.

PIB Press Release
 
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Without a strong protected network, India's military will truly be paralyzed if the Chinese or other capable network attack group begins war. I found this to be India's single greatest weakness...followed by having very limited ability to fight battles at night.

I think it's a big mistake releasing this report especially with growing regional instability.
This report is to make(chinese) guys like you happy if we are unprepared try and take advantage now is your chance. In reality 100 billion will be spent in the coming years.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Kartikeya Sharma & Gaurav Sawant (Headlines Today)
New Delhi, December 3, 2009

The Indian Army, one of the world's largest, has admitted it is far from being battle-ready. The force is 50 per cent short of attaining full capability.

The admission is part of the army's internal assessment report submitted to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence. Headlines Today has exclusive access to the report.

The report says it will take around 20 years for the army to gain full defence preparedness. The infantry, artillery and the armoury would be fully ready for battle only by 2027. This means that in the event of a war in the next two decades, the country may prove to be a virtual sitting duck.

Going by the report, the force seems most vulnerable as far as combat helicopters are concerned. The report says the army has attained an abysmal 17 per cent capability in combat choppers. Full combat capability by helicopters would not be possible before 2027.

Another problem is the army's inability to develop a communication network. India will not have a real-time information sharing network before 2027. The current capability is just 24 per cent despite the country's stellar show in information technology.

What's really shocking is the shortage in fighting arms. The artillery has just 52 per cent of the total capability required to defend the country. The country will near 97 per cent capability in artillery only by 2027.

The infantry too is struggling at a 65 per cent capability. The infantry wants to replace its indigenous INSAS rifles, acquire night-fighting capabilities, new generation anti-tank missiles and rockets. Shields for nuclear, biological and chemical warfare too are not properly in place.

The picture isn't rosy for the mechanised and special forces units either, which are way behind their required defence preparedness.
So whose fault is this? Govt or the Army?
 

sandeepdg

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Well, i believe that even with 50% capability , we can kick our neighbor's a** pretty hard and dither others from taking suicidal chances with our country....
 

Koji

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This report is to make(chinese) guys like you happy if we are unprepared try and take advantage now is your chance. In reality 100 billion will be spent in the coming years.
Yes LF...an Indian army self-report on its dithering capabilities was intended to make guys like "me" happy.

Military hackers capable of penetrating protected Western networks will cause havoc in India's unprepared system. A simple push to India's tottering infrastructure system is going to send it crashing.
 

no smoking

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Four, to be able to move in troops by air in case of any Tibet uprising. China is very worried about the Tibetan and Uighur not been well disposed to the Han hegemony.
Sorry, we are worrying india for Tibet cause. We'v already had enough forces in Tibet to deal with any riot. Yes, India has the ability but considering other political and economic factors, I don't see that India can do sth for them.

China is aware that India can destabilise China in Tibet and that is why they are mortified as they are mortified of the influence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Dalai Lama? An old man closing to his end of life? Well, if see the video in youtube, you can find Dalai's pricture is being hanged on the wall publicly by tibeten. One hand it proves the influence of dalai, on the other hand, it tells you that the CCP was not even bothering to eliminate his influence among tibeten. So that is how much we are mortified by him. An annoying fly.

Having said that, the Standing Committee Report is basically to indicate that what should be the actual assets to have a strong, capable Army that can take the war into the enemy territory is not there.

In short, the assets required to teach a lesson.

We are capable of defending ourselves, but what we must possess is assets to teach a lesson and ensure an armed peace from a position of ascendancy.

To be a first rate military power, one has to have the assets desired and more so, since the Govt has been dithering in purchasing arms required.
We are looking forward to this day. Please don't let us endure the endless delay as LCA.
 

Rage

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The report says the army has attained an abysmal 17 per cent capability in combat choppers. Full combat capability by helicopters would not be possible before 2027.

I'm going to try and bite the lip here.

I've taken this and tried to assay it in the context of: a) actual weapons system numbers; b) political agenda and c) slated modernization plans, of the interim report; and with respect to those platforms mentioned in the article, modernization delays.

I think what the General implies here is that he is guaging the deficits by factoring in shortfall numbers by excluding / withholding "old" platforms that are slated for replacement, and arriving at a "combat preparedness" ratio for "artillery, helicopters and infantry weapons" purely on the basis of the newer ones.

We know that the Army has always been big on its 'qualitative leverage' given that it cannot simultaneously match both its northern neighbours weapon-for-weapon. To the extent that its strategic advantage: that is the terms on which it is fought, lies on its simultaneous conventional (excluding numerical superiority) theatre and tactical / technological advantage, its "preparedness", with respect to winning a war is at "17% for helicopters, 52% for artillery and 65% for infantry small weapons and capabilities" for the Army. To the extent that a war takes place, all the older systems are still at the beck of the Army and can be used in a wartime capacity. What's more, these are actually superior to almost all of which Pakistan has in its inventory.

Around 250 helicopters are currently in service with the Indian Army, mainly obsolete domestically manufactured Cheetah attack helicopters and Chetak multipurpose helicopters, as well as Advanced Light helicopters.

On a slightly tangential note, and with respect to the Armed Forces as a whole, take a look at the list of combat helicopters operated by the Air Forces of the two countries: 1) Ind 2) Pak. The closest the P@kies come to a 'comparison' is a measly 4 Mil M-17's and 15 Alouette III's (that comprises the 'combat' and transport/aerial-refuelling group of their helicopter inventory).


What's really shocking is the shortage in fighting arms. The artillery has just 52 per cent of the total capability required to defend the country. The country will near 97 per cent capability in artillery only by 2027.
Arty is definitely a concern. Particularly given Pakistan's larger calibre artillery: in particular its 155 mm howitzers, and given the importance of artillery in all our wars and the sizable numerical superiority they enjoy. However, what the b#stards won't tell you is that apart from their 144 M114 155mm towed howitzers, their 148 M109A5 self-propelled howitzers, their 200 M109A2 SP guns and their 60 M110A2 203mm self-propelled howitzers, to which India's only ostensible answer at the moment is the 155 mm Bofors Haubits FH77/A and the 155mm Soltam M68, most of their artillery systems are comparably or even older. What the b@stards will also not tell you is that the Def Research Development Organization have upgraded an "unidentified number" of 130mm M46 field guns to an 'upgunned' 155 mm/45 calibre barrel with a range of 39 km under a project entitled 'Metamorphosis'.


Another problem is the army's inability to develop a communication network. India will not have a real-time information sharing network before 2027. The current capability is just 24 per cent despite the country's stellar show in information technology.

True, and this remains a concern. Given China's rapid strides in digital and information technology, its band of cyber warriors and astroturfers is something we oughta be concerned about. But the Army Static Switched Communications Network [ASCON] launched in 2000, has to date metamorphosed into decent network. Though DoT infrastructure is still used at many places, this informal interview with Lt. Gen. Kumar states that the Army largely depends on its own networks for telecommunication, with ASCON improved from [TDM] Time Division Multiplexing to state-of-the-art [ATM] Asynchronous Transmission Models.

They're also exploiting facilities available on the INSAT series to augment terrestrial communication, where operationally justified, and for strategic long haul communications for special applications.


And surprise surprise! I also came across this today from the Mid-Day:

Indian Army goes into Star Wars mode


The infantry too is struggling at a 65 per cent capability. The infantry wants to replace its indigenous INSAS rifles, acquire night-fighting capabilities, new generation anti-tank missiles and rockets. Shields for nuclear, biological and chemical warfare too are not properly in place.
That I cannot fathom! So they want to replace the indigenous INSAS rifle with something else? What the f%ck for? Both series of problems have already been rectified: the high-altitude jamming and cracking of polymer magazines during the Kargil war by the Ishapore ISOFB, that has seen no recurrence since; and reports that the gun malfunctioned during a gunbattle with Maoists by the Nepalese forces were disproved trials conducted before the Nepalese Army showed that the rifle was satisfactory and that the malfunctions had been due to poor handling and improper cleaning of the rifle by Nepalese soldiers.

As for ATGM's, was there something wrong with what was bought by the armed forces of Tanzania, Botswana and Morocco. The Nag is "competitively priced" and will provide a potent counterweight to the Russian Konkours and the European Milan, which can and will be manufactured in excess under license by BDL from both. And what about this: Indian Army to Purchase 4100 Milan 2T Anti Tank Guided Missiles in USD 120 million Deal.

And this: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4177415

And this: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_india-s-next-big-buy-is-a-missile-from-us_1295087

Are we still looking at 2027?
 

rajkoumar

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the kargil war happen de to negligense of indian army. lack of technolagie. latest armement. we had lot of casualities we should not forget that.
 

rajkoumar

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modernistation of indian army with in coming five year is the good measure to correct our negligence in defence feild since from the begining.

each time when there is a problem we react but we don't act sincierly.

How many war we come through how can we come to this unprepared stage. i am rearly sheme about this.

if there is a war in coming years we have to risk our jawans life without giving them enough capabiliy and blem them?

when we have china and pakistan alocating and a big ammount and first privilage to defense in their budget how can we could be careless.

absolute rapid modernistation in coming years it the only solution we should give more importance in budget.
 

AJSINGH

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AJ, the Indian army knows what's to be done. What you have mentioned is just part of it. No army on the world can say they are absolutely prepared for any war as circumstances change. Even the mighty US army feels it does not have enough. The good thing is that inspite of all the short comings, the IA protects the nation. The very Insas rifle that you want to be replaced, did absolutely well in Kargil, ask Brig Ray who served in that war.
my father fought in the kargil war with insas ,he does not like that rifle , because once he told me that 5 insas rifle stopped during continuous fire and if that rifle is so good then why is IA trying to replace them
Insas is heavy,not powerfull enough and what about grenades ,are they good too ,i do not think so
 

AJSINGH

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AJ, the Indian army knows what's to be done. What you have mentioned is just part of it. No army on the world can say they are absolutely prepared for any war as circumstances change. Even the mighty US army feels it does not have enough. The good thing is that inspite of all the short comings, the IA protects the nation. The very Insas rifle that you want to be replaced, did absolutely well in Kargil, ask Brig Ray who served in that war.
IA surely knows what need to be done ,then why is this state of affairs of IA because politican do not let indian armed forces mordanize , you know that is true ,every GOI has not placed the mordenisation of armed frorces as prority
do not compare US army with IA , they are a totally different league
 

Ray

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Sorry, we are worrying india for Tibet cause. We'v already had enough forces in Tibet to deal with any riot. Yes, India has the ability but considering other political and economic factors, I don't see that India can do sth for them.
Not riot. Uprising. Rebellion. And if the Uighurs and Tibetans rebel as a joint group, then all the King's horsemen and all the King's men would not be able to control with what is within the areas.


Dalai Lama? An old man closing to his end of life? Well, if see the video in youtube, you can find Dalai's pricture is being hanged on the wall publicly by tibeten. One hand it proves the influence of dalai, on the other hand, it tells you that the CCP was not even bothering to eliminate his influence among tibeten. So that is how much we are mortified by him. An annoying fly.
Of course the CCP is not bothered about Dalai Lama. That is why he is called a terrorist and China went into blue funk when he visited Tawang!!



We are looking forward to this day. Please don't let us endure the endless delay as LCA.
Don't worry. India does not steal technology and copycats.
 

Ray

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One wonders how the percentages were calculated. It has to be valued against some terminal aim which is the 100% mark. What is that aim? Is it Defensive or is it Offensive and if so against which of the adversaries? What is sufficient for one, need not be sufficient for the other. It has to also be in terms of the spatiotemporal environment in which the aim is expected to be achieved.

There is no doubt that there is a shortfall in equipment and much of it is getting obsolescent and requires replacement.

In so far as Kargil goes, INSAS proved to be fine. Of the rifles including AK 47, it is the lightest. Since it fires 5.56mm amn, it is less powerful that the 7.62 mm amn. Yet, it kills!

Stoppages takes place in all weapons and INSAS is no exception. Stoppages take place for a variety of reasons including poor maintenance.

We converted to 5.56 since it was adopted by the NATO. We are again going head over heels since NATO and others are contemplating conversion to an intermediary calibre which is said to be more lethal!

In so far as tardy modernisation is concerned, unlike other countries, where politicians have military background (national service, war experience etc) our politicians have no idea and all they are worried is some political backlash over purchases. Further, the bureaucrats are even worse. The Cold Start Doctrine had been presented to the GOI long back, but it was not accepted. It was only after the huge delay in mobilisation during Op Parakrama that the GOI woke up and the bureaucrats could not put the spanner in the works!
 

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GOI counter's the India Today report

ARMED FORCES FULLY PREPARED TO COUNTER ANY CHALLENGE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15:59 IST

Reports have appeared in a section of the media regarding the Army not being fully combat ready and shortfall in the full battle preparedness.

It is clarified that modernisation is a deliberate process and is progressive in nature, the deficiency of the military hardware is reviewed at regular intervals and replacement of these are projected after deliberation based on the operational requirement and enhancement of operational efficiency keeping pace with modernization. Projection of military hardware requirements has already been made and these are at various stages of procurement. The Defence Procurement Procedure is also amended periodically to ensure transparency and effectiveness in procurement.

It is further clarified that the combat efficiency of the Army at no point be doubted as the military preparedness and combat efficiency is the foremost and primary task. There has been no compromise in this issue. The progress of modernization is monitored closely at various levels to minimize the shortfall.

It may also be understood that our Armed Forces are fully prepared, battle-worthy and capable to counter any challenges at very short notice, in keeping with the task assigned to defend the Nation.


****************


S Om Singh/Rajendra/Daleep

PIB Press Release
 

RAM

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Troops fully prepared, battle-worthy:ARMY

New Delhi: The Army has said that its troops are "fully prepared, battle-worthy and capable" to counter any challenge at short notice.

"Our armed forces are fully prepared, battle-worthy and capable to counter any challenges at very short notice, in keeping with the task assigned to defend the nation," Army PRO Col S Om Singh said.


"It is further clarified that the combat efficiency of the Army at no point be doubted as the military preparedness and combat efficiency is the foremost and primary task. There has been no compromise in this issue. The progress of modernisation is monitored closely at various levels to minimise the shortfall," Singh said, reacting to media reports that the Army was not fully combat ready and there was a shortfall in the full battle preparedness.

He said modernisation was "a deliberate process and is progressive in nature" and the deficiency of the military hardware was reviewed at regular intervals and replacement projected after deliberation based on the operational requirement and enhancement of operational efficiency.

"The projection of military hardware requirements has already been made and these are at various stages of procurement. The Defence Procurement Procedure is also amended periodically to ensure transparency and effectiveness in procurement," he added.


Troops fully prepared, battle-worthy: Army
 

no smoking

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Not riot. Uprising. Rebellion. And if the Uighurs and Tibetans rebel as a joint group, then all the King's horsemen and all the King's men would not be able to control with what is within the areas.
Well, if tibeten and uighurs cannot get consolidation among their own race, how can they joint fighting?

Rebellion? Yes, they tried. Tibet cannot last longer than one month. And Uighurs could not even resist the attack from a local han war lord. I don't know what kind of rebellion can scare the CCP supporting by the majority of domestic and overseas chinese on this matter.

Maybe you would say when CCP step down, Tibet and Uighurs can take this chance. I can sure you whoever the successor is, their first mission will be re-take Tiebt and XinJiang. Because they need to prove their validity.




Of course the CCP is not bothered about Dalai Lama. That is why he is called a terrorist and China went into blue funk when he visited Tawang!!
Yes, as any diplomatic game, you have to re-confirm your stance in every opportunity even though you realy don't care.



Don't worry. India does not steal technology and copycats.
Oh, no, I just worry I may not be able to see India geting ready in your life time. That would be a big disappointment to both of us.
 

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