Northern Alliance and Taliban

Adux

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They are Pashtuns, but you have to differentiate; all Taliban may be Pashtuns, but are all Pashtuns Taliban? The British Raj was primarily made up of Indian foot soldiers, the Mughal armies were primarily made up of Rajputs, does that make those forces representatives of Indians and Rajputs respectively? I think not. Forget Afghan's Pashtuns, even Pakistan's Pashtuns have formed militias to fight the Taliban (despite provocations by the Pakistani army not to do so). You have merely been sold the Pakistani line on the Taliban.
If there is no counter weight to Taliban Pashtuns, from lets say 'good' taliban, then there is no use talking about their view point.
All of them who did fight with British, arent Indians in my opinion. We have different view point. Lets leave at that. Unlike you, I am not taken up by the Pakistani Establishment narrative, that they are not responsible for terror attacks but non-state actors, I am not going to give the same leeway to Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are actually fighting with PA as well as NATO at the same time, but for different reasons and at different points of time, as well as siding with Pashtun nationalist, also Pakistani nationalist as events permit. The situation is too complex and too fluid for us to even make sense out of it. It is better for us to make it as simple as possible. As Foreigners, NATO and Indians aren't going to make sense of the various tribes, their loose central leadership, also their intra-tribe fights. Its better avoided.

As usual, you may know better.
 

The Messiah

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If there is no counter weight to Taliban Pashtuns, from lets say 'good' taliban, then there is no use talking about their view point.
All of them who did fight with British, arent Indians in my opinion. We have different view point. Lets leave at that. Unlike you, I am not taken up by the Pakistani Establishment narrative, that they are not responsible for terror attacks but non-state actors, I am not going to give the same leeway to Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are actually fighting with PA as well as NATO at the same time, but for different reasons and at different points of time, as well as siding with Pashtun nationalist, also Pakistani nationalist as events permit. The situation is too complex and too fluid for us to even make sense out of it. It is better for us to make it as simple as possible. As Foreigners, NATO and Indians aren't going to make sense of the various tribes, their loose central leadership, also their intra-tribe fights. Its better avoided.

As usual, you may know better.
Thats because they aren't one cohesive group. And trying to understand them that way will only lead to confusion.

Take it on an individual basis and you'll get a clearer picture. Pakis also think all hindus share the same thought pattern and some of us in India think all muslims around the world share the same goals. Thus grouping people on the basis of religion, caste etc and judging them on that basis gives you contradictory answers because afterall humans are complex beings which there own needs, motivations etc.
 

Tronic

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Are you sure about that, by most reports Taliban does enjoy a lot of support from the Pastun populace.
By most Pakistani reports, yes. Not by most Pashtun accounts, not by a long shot.

No insurgency can be sustained without local support and looking at the growth of Taliban in the last 5 years are so, it does look like they a significant base among the public.
Taliban "insurgency" is a cross border phenomena. It is sustained because of Pakistan, and Pakistan alone. The Taliban re-grouped and grew in Pakistani territory, with the blessings of the Pakistan army, which assisted them in killing all the local Pashtun elders.
 

Adux

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Thats because they aren't one cohesive group. And trying to understand them that way will only lead to confusion.

Take it on an individual basis and you'll get a clearer picture. Pakis also think all hindus share the same thought pattern and some of us in India think all muslims around the world share the same goals. Thus grouping people on the basis of religion, caste etc and judging them on that basis gives you contradictory answers because afterall humans are complex beings which there own needs, motivations etc.
I dont think you got me Messiah, they even on a inividual group basis change sides as and when event suits them or forces them. But as a general rule, they do support Jihad and Pashtun Independence. But from a US perspective and even from a Pakistani perspective , none of them are their friends. They may considering their resources, may want to play one group against the other, but for that to happen, they would need to the support and trust of atleast one group, which they wont get. Pakistan lost control of the entire area in this way. They tried to micro-manage, kill of old tribal elders etc etc. Today it is snake of multiple heads with no heads at all. If it is possible, it is better to kill of every gun totting pashtun atleast from the US perspective, or provide them independence from Pakistan, which will still not get them out of their tribal islamic mentality and into the 21st century.
 
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The Messiah

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I dont think you got me Messiah, they even on a inividual group basis change sides as and when event suits them or forces them. But as a general rule, they do support Jihad and Pashtun Independence. But from a US perspective and even from a Pakistani perspective , none of them are their friends. They may considering their resources, may want to play one group against the other, but for that to happen, they would need to the support and trust of atleast one group, which they wont get. Pakistan lost control of the entire area in this way.
Pashtuns view all outsiders as outsiders and that includes pakis...they will use anyone as long as they suit them.

If GoI had half of that determination in foreign policy then wouldn't face the problems that we face today.
 

Tronic

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If there is no counter weight to Taliban Pashtuns, from lets say 'good' taliban, then there is no use talking about their view point.
Firstly, there is no such thing as "good" or "bad" Taliban. Again, you are functioning on a Pakistani thought process. Snap out of it. There are countless counter weights to the Taliban Pashtuns, countless Pashtun Lashkars organized against the Taliban. I have given you several examples already, from the past and from the present. Infact: Mattani attack: Taliban target children – The Express Tribune


All of them who did fight with British, arent Indians in my opinion. We have different view point. Lets leave at that.
Indians fighting for British Raj are not Indians, but Pashtun Taliban are put on a pedestal of representing all Pashtuns. Hypocrisy.


Unlike you, I am not taken up by the Pakistani Establishment narrative, that they are not responsible for terror attacks but non-state actors, I am not going to give the same leeway to Pashtuns.
You clearly do not know than what the Pakistani Establishment's narrative is.

Looks like the Pakistani narrative has got more than just Pakistanis fooled. You are the one blindly towing the Pakistani narrative that the Taliban are a Pashtun people's movement and the Pakistanis have little control.

Pashtuns are actually fighting with PA as well as NATO at the same time, but for different reasons and at different points of time, as well as siding with Pashtun nationalist, also Pakistani nationalist as events permit. The situation is too complex and too fluid for us to even make sense out of it. It is better for us to make it as simple as possible. As Foreigners, NATO and Indians aren't going to make sense of the various tribes, their loose central leadership, also their intra-tribe fights. Its better avoided.
I can understand if the situation seems too complex for you to understand, and you are not able to make sense of it. To better understand the picture, drop whatever propaganda that has been fed by the Pakistani establishment and hear what real Pashtuns have to say. Farhat Taj is one of them, she is a Pashtun herself and has lived with the Pashtuns for years now, being a voice for them.

This book has years of her research compiled: Taliban and Anti-Taliban: Amazon.ca: Farhat Taj: Books

She also writes for the Daily Times. For a change, lets read up on the view from Waziristan, not Rawilpindi:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 

Adux

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Pashtuns view all outsiders as outsiders and that includes pakis...they will use anyone as long as they suit them.

If GoI had half of that determination in foreign policy then wouldn't face the problems that we face today.
Exactly, so coming back to the original point. Why should we care about the Pashtun viewpoint, There is only one viewpoint being shouted the loudest that is Taliban. They control the movement, They are predominately pashtuns, they attack US interest. I could say this is a Pashtun- US conflict by normal measure of two conflicting parties; ably supported by Pakistan on both sides, whenever they feel it is in their larger interest, that is Afghanistan for Strategic depth.
 

Adux

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Firstly, there is no such thing as "good" or "bad" Taliban. Again, you are functioning on a Pakistani thought process. Snap out of it. There are countless counter weights to the Taliban Pashtuns, countless Pashtun Lashkars organized against the Taliban. I have given you several examples already, from the past and from the present. Infact: Mattani attack: Taliban target children – The Express Tribune

It was a hypothetical situation, there is no anti-taliban forces, simply put. Those who are there in small numbers, isnt our concern.

Indians fighting for British Raj are not Indians, but Pashtun Taliban are put on a pedestal of representing all Pashtuns. Hypocrisy.

Let me tell you, how the world works, I dont care about people who arent mine. Just like Western news agencies dont care about 1000 people dying of floods for one white drowning in his pool. I dont care about them. It is a simple quite un polished human emotion, you care of your own.

You clearly do not know than what the Pakistani Establishment's narrative is.

Looks like the Pakistani narrative has got more than just Pakistanis fooled. You are the one blindly towing the Pakistani narrative that the Taliban are a Pashtun people's movement and the Pakistanis have little control.
Simple men like me are quite easily fooled. But usually it is people like us who do the dirty work and get the job done.

What is the Taliban which is predomiately Pashtun's main objective?
Why do they fight PA as well as gets support from PA?
Are there are factions within the Taliban which are interested in Pashtun homeland?
Are there factions which are interested getting the infidels out of Afghanistan?
Are there factions who want to get the infidels out then go after Pakistan?
Or do they want the status quo pre-2001 to remain?
Do they fight the PA, only when PA is forced to act by the US?
Do they fight the PA for territory and control?
Is the PA acting in a cohesive manner? or Do they have factions which fight for and against the Taliban?
Is this ISI and its cronies feeding their own men to Taliban bullets?
Should we also extend the same "Its only ISI, therefore PA has to be absolved of any wrong doings" or is it a mix of both?

Pakistani's uses them and promotes them, but to say that they have control would be a bit much, they lost it post 2008.



I can understand if the situation seems too complex for you to understand, and you are not able to make sense of it. To better understand the picture, drop whatever propaganda that has been fed by the Pakistani establishment and hear what real Pashtuns have to say. Farhat Taj is one of them, she is a Pashtun herself and has lived with the Pashtuns for years now, being a voice for them.
Voice of people who doesnt hold any ground is of no use.
 

Tronic

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It was a hypothetical situation, there is no anti-taliban forces, simply put. Those who are there in small numbers, isnt our concern.
Thats your selective opinion, not a ground reality.


Let me tell you, how the world works, I dont care about people who arent mine. Just like Western news agencies dont care about 1000 people dying of floods for one white drowning in his pool. I dont care about them. It is a simple quite un polished human emotion, you care of your own.
You need not care for them Adux, no one is requesting that you do. That however does not mean that you should spread misinformation and paint all Pashtuns as Taliban.

Simple men like me are quite easily fooled. But usually it is people like us who do the dirty work and get the job done.
Which job exactly Adux?


What is the Taliban which is predomiately Pashtun's main objective?
Why do they fight PA as well as gets support from PA?
Are there are factions within the Taliban which are interested in Pashtun homeland?
Are there factions which are interested getting the infidels out of Afghanistan?
Are there factions who want to get the infidels out then go after Pakistan?
Or do they want the status quo pre-2001 to remain?
Do they fight the PA, only when PA is forced to act by the US?
Do they fight the PA for territory and control?
Is the PA acting in a cohesive manner? or Do they have factions which fight for and against the Taliban?
Is this ISI and its cronies feeding their own men to Taliban bullets?
The sources I have provided you at the bottom of this post, http://defenceforumindia.com/china-...0-northern-alliance-taliban-4.html#post312392, will answer all your questions.

Should we also extend the same "Its only ISI, therefore PA has to be absolved of any wrong doings" or is it a mix of both?
Errmm... ISI is the Pakistan army. ISI chaps are just men on temporary deputation from the Pakistan army. Its foolish to think that ISI agents are terrorist sympathizers when detached to the ISI, but sane entities when they go back to the army; thats just not how it works. ISI and Pakistan army are one and the same.

Pakistani's uses them and promotes them, but to say that they have control would be a bit much, they lost it post 2008.
They lost control, yes, but they still do not believe that they lost control (that is why they still differentiate between "good" Taliban and "bad" Taliban). Loosing control does not absolve them of blame for breeding a monster.


Voice of people who doesnt hold any ground is of no use.
Look again who holds ground, who doesn't.
 

KS

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Are you sure about that, by most reports Taliban does enjoy a lot of support from the Pastun populace. No insurgency can be sustained without local support and looking at the growth of Taliban in the last 5 years are so, it does look like they a significant base among the public.
They just kill those opposed to them.

Instill fear to win the support is their modus operandi..

Ofcourse out of the many Pashtun some might support the Taliban due to the extensive clan linkages among the Pashtuns Other than that the common Afghan (Tajik, Hazara, Pashtun,Uzbek) hate the "Panjabi" extension in Afghanistan - Taliban.

But it would be wrong to potray only the Taliban as evil and the NA are saints. They are just the lesser of the two evil.

But one thing that doesnt sit well with me is the Pakistani support to the Taliban who dont recognize the Durand line while at the same opposing the NA which recognizes the Durand Line as the legitimate international border !
 
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Adux

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Thats your selective opinion, not a ground reality.

Errrm, Ground reality, is that Taliban rules the roost in Pashtun lands.

You need not care for them Adux, no one is requesting that you do. That however does not mean that you should spread misinformation and paint all Pashtuns as Taliban.
Doesnt really matter, American drones dont differentiate either.



Which job exactly Adux?
Something that might be a little over your head.




The sources I have provided you at the bottom of this post, http://defenceforumindia.com/china-...0-northern-alliance-taliban-4.html#post312392, will answer all your questions.



Errmm... ISI is the Pakistan army. ISI chaps are just men on temporary deputation from the Pakistan army. Its foolish to think that ISI agents are terrorist sympathizers when detached to the ISI, but sane entities when they go back to the army; thats just not how it works. ISI and Pakistan army are one and the same.
Duh, It was rhetorical question.



They lost control, yes, but they still do not believe that they lost control (that is why they still differentiate between "good" Taliban and "bad" Taliban). Loosing control does not absolve them of blame for breeding a monster
.

Who said they were absolved from any crimes? Nice to see you are slowly getting the point, rather than your theoretical understanding of events.



Look again who holds ground, who doesn't.
I am looking, and I dont see any of the people you mentioned holding ground in Pashtun lands except Taliban.
 

Tronic

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Errrm, Ground reality, is that Taliban rules the roost in Pashtun lands.
Ground reality regarding anti-Taliban Pashtun entities, not who rules the roost, who doesn't.



Doesnt really matter, American drones dont differentiate either.
Between Taliban and friendly Pashtuns? Yes they do.


Something that might be a little over your head.
Your Trollness is creeping out. Control if you can.


Who said they were absolved from any crimes? Nice to see you are slowly getting the point, rather than your theoretical understanding of events.
:rolleyes:

I am looking, and I dont see any of the people you mentioned holding ground in Pashtun lands except Taliban.
It may be because you have already made up your mind and hence are shutting out to the anti-Taliban Pashtun forces on the ground. The Pashtun tribes in Lakki Marwat, Shangla, Shinwar are but a few examples of anti-Taliban militias holding their ground, than there are the famous Turris of Kurram Valley. Infact, the Turris have been so fierce and effective against the Taliban that; BBC News - Pakistan army blockades anti-Taliban tribe in Kurram.
 

sob

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Tronic , IIRC many of the Pahtun tribes had problems more with the foreign militants- Uzbeks and others, rather than fellow Pashtun Talibanis.

Of course as you have pointed out the Tribes in the Kurram valley were forced by the Pakistan Army to go in for a cease fire with the Taliban and allow their fighters free passage.
 

Adux

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Sob,

In the greater scheme of things, Turi's and their fight is inconsequential, simply because the enemy they face are far more powerful and resourceful, and enjoy far more support in other tribes.

'Foreign Policy': RFE's Khattak Asks If Pakistan's Army Succeeded In Clearing Kurram
August 25, 2011
Radio Mashaal correspondent Daud Khattak, a frequent contributor to "Foreign Policy" magazine's online "AfPak Channel" project, examines Pakistani Army claims to have swept extremists from the federally-administered Kurram agency in northwest Pakistan -- and finds them wanting.

---------------

'Clearing' Kurram

By Daud Khattak | AfPak Channel / Foreign Policy
August 25, 2011

On Aug. 18, Pakistan's most powerful man, Army chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, secretly flew to Kurram agency in the country's Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and declared it free of "miscreants."

No doubt the Pakistani Army did a great job clearing militants from Central Kurram, the focus of the operation, as it did in areas like the Swat Valley. But Kayani's visit and announcement raise the following question: What do "clear" and "miscreants" mean for a Pakistani Army fighting to regain control of the area from a discreet force that can shift, hit, kill, and target anywhere, any place, and any time? And if the area had been successfully cleared, why did Kayani not travel by road, and why did he not meet the open jirgas of tribal elders in that area, as was the tradition when top Pakistani officials visited the tribal belt before 2001?

Indeed, it would have been great fun if Kayani had taken the governor of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province (the federal government figure who is actually in charge of administering the FATA) along with him, traveling by road to the "cleared" area so that the youth of Kurram could welcome them with the beating of drums and traditional dance, attan, instead of welcoming Kayani's visit from afar while begging him to finish the job and lift the siege on Kurram's main city, Parachinar. Only then would the people of Kurram come to believe that their area had truly been secured.

However, what is clear in Kurram and the rest of the tribal areas is that the people continue to live under the threat of terrorists operating under different names, from Jaish to Lashkar to Tehrik, despite numerous operations and claims of victory by Pakistan's security forces.

***

Although the Army announced that the Kurram operation was launched after a demand from the area's tribal elders, locals contradicted that statement in conversations with the author, saying they never asked for the military operation, whose key objective was to open the Tal-Parachinar road for people traveling to Parachinar, the center of Upper Kurram, from Peshawar via Sadda, the headquarters of Lower Kurram Agency. Instead, they had been asking for more than two years for the government simply to provide them basic security, with no response in return.

However, locals told this writer, they still cannot travel on the Tal-Parachinar road without risking their security, despite the two-month-long operation and ensuing "victory."

All the available accounts from Central Kurram suggest that one of the major impacts of the operation was that it forced the local population to leave their homes, allowing the Taliban to go from village to village, burning the villages vacated by the people. According to reports aired by the Pashto-language radio station Mashaal, so far 16 villages have been burned to the ground by the Taliban in spite of the Army operation, with each village consisting of an average of 50 to 60 houses.

Similar operations have already been conducted in other tribal agencies -- South Waziristan, Mohmand, Bajaur, and the Bara area of Khyber, where the security forces have been engaged in combat operations for the past two years while the people live under a curfew -- and been declared successes. All the while, the displaced people from those areas continue to live in tents, leaving the field open for the Army and the Taliban. Once the playing fields for their children, the land of the tribesmen is now known as a recruiting center for suicide bombers and jihadists.
FATA's nearly 7 million tribesmen, once fiercely independent, stunningly hospitable, and unbelievably proud, are now living as a vanquished nation robbed of their land, resources, independence, customs, and traditions by the imported jihadists and the state security agencies.

Many in these tribal areas can't live and even visit their homes and villages for fear of being kidnapped by armed bandits, killed by the Taliban, arrested by the Army or intelligence agencies, or targeted accidentally by American drones. And those who have not left or have since returned can't dare to utter a word either against the Army or against the militants.

Two weeks ago, when armed Taliban raided some shops in the central bazaar in Miram Shah, the capital of North Waziristan, and burned pieces of women's garments for being un-Islamic and too thin, this writer tried to talk to some shop owners about the incident. Those who would speak agreed to do so only on the condition that they would not condemn the act and would only discuss their financial losses. Yet the situation is little different between the Taliban-controlled Miram Shah and in "cleared" areas of Mohmand, South Waziristan, Bajaur, and Kurram.

In fact, the threat for the common citizen in all those areas is as widespread as it was before the military operations. And this is the reason they are staying in tented villages despite the hot summer and chilly winter, with no proper food, water, medicines, and schooling for their children. Many others have migrated to other cities and towns, shutting down their businesses and leaving their farms.

While the sacrifices of the Pakistani Army and Frontier Corps over the years are no secret, the failure to achieve peace and security despite the substantial use of force and displacement of hundreds of thousands leaves room for many questions -- most importantly, whether the Army is unwilling to definitively crush the militants, or instead if it is incapable of doing so.

In Kurram, the road to Parachinar has been closed by militants for the last few years, while the security forces have merely looked on. Suddenly and unexpectedly, these same forces announced a clearing operation, but only in an area where the situation was quite calm and peaceful. Thousands of families were displaced to live in camps, and then suddenly the Army announced victory one evening while the displaced people, as scared as before, find their situation unchanged.

The road to Upper Kurram that goes from Peshawar to Parachinar via Tal is still closed, and the people, scared of being kidnapped or killed, still travel through the Afghan cities of Jalalabad, Kabul, Khost, and Gardez to reach Parachinar.

Many locals with whom this writer talked on the phone say the real militant problem existed in Lower Kurram, while the Army was engaged for the past two months in Central Kurram. During the whole operation, it was not made clear who or which group of militants was being targeted, or whether any prominent militant leaders had been killed or arrested.

It is equal parts interesting and tragic that only a day after Gen. Kayani's visit to Central Kurram and the announcement regarding the "clearance" of the area, a teenage bomber wreaked havoc on worshippers in a mosque offering Friday congregational prayers in the Jamrud subdivision of Khyber agency, an area previously declared "clear" of militants.

Seeing the bomb blasts in a supposedly secure area, how could people in Kurram be expected to believe that their lives and property would be safe following the military operation in their backyard? And while the key road to Parachinar stays closed, it does not matter much for the people if some portion of the agency is cleared or not; the agency will always struggle to survive while its heart remains blocked.

Daud Khattak is a journalist working with Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's Pashto-language Mashaal Radio in Prague.
'Foreign Policy': RFE's Khattak Asks If Pakistan's Army Succeeded In Clearing Kurram

You can read more about Koh-e-safid. The whole place is so muddled up, its not even funny anymore.
 

Adux

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Ground reality regarding anti-Taliban Pashtun entities, not who rules the roost, who doesn't.
What is the use of the entities, if they are going to sit inside their huts with guns, and dont control ground.




Between Taliban and friendly Pashtuns? Yes they do.
Errrrm, With the amount of collateral damage, I dont think so.




Your Trollness is creeping out. Control if you can.
Errrm, must be the high horse you sit on.



It may be because you have already made up your mind and hence are shutting out to the anti-Taliban Pashtun forces on the ground. The Pashtun tribes in Lakki Marwat, Shangla, Shinwar are but a few examples of anti-Taliban militias holding their ground, than there are the famous Turris of Kurram Valley. Infact, the Turris have been so fierce and effective against the Taliban that; BBC News - Pakistan army blockades anti-Taliban tribe in Kurram
Turi's are fighting a very small battle in a small area. Again not important in the greater scheme of things as long as they dont have enough support as well as enough numbers to make a definitive impact on Taliban. They are all but not few, but a few.
 

Tronic

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What is the use of the entities, if they are going to sit inside their huts with guns, and dont control ground.
They are holding ground in the agencies I mentioned. Ofcourse, you choose to believe them as "inconsequential". I have given you links to Farhat Taj's works, start off with those to know the ground reality.

You are holding onto your biased sources, that is why you hold opinions such as the collateral damage below;

Errrrm, With the amount of collateral damage, I dont think so.

Again a Pakistani narrative. Ground reality differs. See what Farhat Taj has to say about this so called "collateral damage". Let me help you out here:




There is a deep abyss between the perceptions of the people of Waziristan, the most drone-hit area and the wider Pakistani society on the other side of the River Indus. For the latter, the US drone attacks on Waziristan are a violation of Pakistani's sovereignty. Politicians, religious leaders, media analysts and anchorpersons express sensational clamour over the supposed 'civilian casualties' in the drone attacks. I have been discussing the issue of drone attacks with hundreds of people of Waziristan. They see the US drone attacks as their liberators from the clutches of the terrorists into which, they say, their state has wilfully thrown them.

.....

I would challenge both the US and Pakistani media to provide verifiable evidence of civilian 'casualties' because of drone attacks on Waziristan, i.e. names of the people killed, names of their villages, dates and locations of the strikes and, above all, the methodology of the information that they collected. If they can't meet the challenge, I would request them to stop throwing around fabricated figures of 'civilian casualties' that confuse people around the world and provide propaganda material to the pro-Taliban and al Qaeda forces in the politics and media of Pakistan.

...

Neither the government of Pakistan nor the media have any access to the area and no system is in place to arrive at precise estimates. The Pakistani government and media take the figure appearing in the American media as an admission by the American government. The US media too do not have access to the area. Moreover, the area is simply not accessible for any kind of independent journalistic or scholarly work on drone attacks. The Taliban simply kill anyone doing so.

...

The reason why these estimates about civilian 'casualties' in the US and Pakistani media are wrong is that after every attack the terrorists cordon off the area and no one, including the local villagers, is allowed to come even near the targeted place. The militants themselves collect the bodies, burry the dead and then issue the statement that all of them were innocent civilians. This has been part of their propaganda to provide excuses to the pro-Taliban and al Qaeda media persons and political forces in Pakistan to generate public sympathies for the terrorists.

...

The people of Waziristan are suffering a brutal kind of occupation under the Taliban and al Qaeda. It is in this context that they would welcome anyone, Americans, Israelis, Indians or even the devil, to rid them of the Taliban and al Qaeda. Therefore, they welcome the drone attacks. Secondly, the people feel comfortable with the drones because of their precision and targeted strikes. People usually appreciate drone attacks when they compare it with the Pakistan Army's attacks, which always result in collateral damage. Especially the people of Waziristan have been terrified by the use of long-range artillery and air strikes of the Pakistan Army and Air Force. People complain that not a single TTP or al Qaeda member has been killed so far by the Pakistan Army, whereas a lot of collateral damage has taken place. Thousands of houses have been destroyed and hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed by the Pakistan Army. On the other hand, drone attacks have never targeted the civilian population except, they informed, in one case when the funeral procession of Khwazh Wali, a TTP commander, was hit. In that attack too, many TTP militants were killed including Bilal (the TTP commander of Zangara area) and two Arab members of al Qaeda. But some civilians were also killed. After the attack people got the excuse of not attending the funeral of slain TTP militants or offering them food, which they used to do out of compulsion in order to put themselves in the TTP's good books. "It (this drone attack) was a blessing in disguise," several people commented.

...

I have heard people particularly appreciating the precision of drone strikes. People say that when a drone would hover over the skies, they wouldn't be disturbed and would carry on their usual business because they would be sure that it does not target the civilians, but the same people would run for shelter when a Pakistani jet would appear in the skies because of its indiscriminate firing. They say that even in the same compound only the exact room — where a high value target (HVT) is present — is targeted. Thus others in the same compound are spared. The people of Waziristan have been complaining why the drones are only restricted to targeting the Arabs. They want the drones to attack the TTP leadership, the Uzbek/Tajik/Turkmen, Punjabi and Pakhtun Taliban. I have heard even religious people of Waziristan cursing the jihad and welcoming even Indian or Israeli support to help them get rid of the TTP and foreign militants. The TTP and foreign militants had made them hostages and occupied their houses by force. The Taliban have publicly killed even the religious scholars in Waziristan.

...

I have yet to come across a non-TTP resident of Waziristan who supports the Taliban or al Qaeda. Till recently they were terrified by the TTP to the extent that they would not open their mouth to oppose them. But now, having been displaced and out of their reach, some of them speak against them openly and many more than before in private conversations. They express their fear of the intelligence agencies of Pakistan whenever speaking against the Taliban. They see the two as two sides of the same coin.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan





Errrm, must be the high horse you sit on.

Or it may be just that inferiority complex of yours at work again which props up in almost every topic you discuss.



Turi's are fighting a very small battle in a small area. Again not important in the greater scheme of things as long as they dont have enough support as well as enough numbers to make a definitive impact on Taliban. They are all but not few, but a few.
Your argument is quite redundant as far as I am concerned. I think I have already provided enough sources to the contrary.
 

Tronic

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Tronic , IIRC many of the Pahtun tribes had problems more with the foreign militants- Uzbeks and others, rather than fellow Pashtun Talibanis.

Of course as you have pointed out the Tribes in the Kurram valley were forced by the Pakistan Army to go in for a cease fire with the Taliban and allow their fighters free passage.
sob, The Pashtuns have a problem with the Taliban as a whole, since the Taliban is still a non-local oppressing force (Taliban's rise to power in Khyber-Pakhtunwa began with the mass murder of the local tribal elders of the region).
 

Adux

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They are holding ground in the agencies I mentioned. Ofcourse, you choose to believe them as "inconsequential". I have given you links to Farhat Taj's works, start off with those to know the ground reality.
You have been qouting Farhat Taj, while to hold uncontested land is quite easy, while the terrorist stay in Lower Khurram.

You are holding onto your biased sources, that is why you hold opinions such as the collateral damage below;
There are enough and more reports of Collateral damage, which is fine by me since they arent my people nor is it American fault that these people have muddled themselves in and out and back in again into jihad.

Again a Pakistani narrative. Ground reality differs. See what Farhat Taj has to say about this so called "collateral damage". Let me help you out here:
You keep on saying about him, he is all but one man.



Or it may be just that inferiority complex of yours at work again which props up in almost every topic you discuss.
Errrm, Not really, You might have to do a bit more than that, to achieve what I have. But then again, you are the kind of man who believes Ahemed Shah Masood as a man of civilized values, while he was nothing but yet another isalmist. Quite simple of you.



Your argument is quite redundant as far as I am concerned. I think I have already provided enough sources to the contrary
No you havent.
 

Adux

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sob, The Pashtuns have a problem with the Taliban as a whole, since the Taliban is still a non-local oppressing force (Taliban's rise to power in Khyber-Pakhtunwa began with the mass murder of the local tribal elders of the region).
Now Taliban is a foreign force? wow!
Now I get it, Taliban are non-pashto people being led by pashto leaders, yup makes sense.
Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mohammed Omar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abdul Ghani Baradar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Obaidullah Akhund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS: The local tribal elders were killed by their own tribesmen.
 

Daredevil

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Adux,

Farhat Taj is a lady. I must say that her research is thorough and quashed much of the Pakistani Army narrative that there is more Talibanization in the pushtun lands because of drone attacks and consequent collateral damage. She disproved much of the claims of PA and clearly said through her articles that people in waziristan actually cheer the drone attacks as they kill the oppressing Taliban who are of pakjabi, pusthun and foreign origin. She in-fact challenged the PA to prove their claims of innocent civilians getting killed with evidence. But so far it has failed to do so and it continues with its duplicity of supporting good taliban faction and acting against bad taliban faction.

Pakistan army cringes when the good taliban (according to them those who don't attack Pakistan) leaders get killed in the drone attacks. For this exact reason they want US to stop the drone attacks (or at least target only bad taliban TTP) despite they themselves allowing the US to carry out drone attacks from pakistani bases.
 

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