Northern Alliance and Taliban

Tronic

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No permanent enemies, only permanent interests...and all that. We supported a faction that we thought could help Astan and India wishes a strong independent Astan.
So we had common interests with the rest of the Mujahideen. Strong independant Afghanistan.

This is what seperates the Mujahideen/Northern Alliance/India/CARs/Iran from the Taliban and their Pakistani masters. ;) The Mujahideen did not spread terror in the world, only the Talibunnies and their Pakistani handlers did by hosting AQ elements.
 

johnee

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So we had common interests with the rest of the Mujahideen. Strong independant Afghanistan.

This is what seperates the Mujahideen/Northern Alliance/India/CARs/Iran from the Taliban and their Pakistani masters. ;) The Mujahideen did not spread terror in the world, only the Talibunnies and their Pakistani handlers did by hosting AQ elements.
We supported one faction that we believed benefitted Astan. Pakis supported a faction that they could influence to set their agenda and keep Astan weakened. However, the larger framework for the both the factions was islamic jihad.
 

Tronic

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We supported one faction that we believed benefitted Astan. Pakis supported a faction that they could influence to set their agenda and keep Astan weakened. However, the larger framework for the both the factions was islamic jihad.
So they waged Islamic Jihad against one another? lol. Mere semantics my friend.

The Afghan government in power today is based around the faction we supported. There is a world of a difference between them and the Talibunnies.

Lets not equate ourselves with the Pakistanis now, and our friends with the Taliban!
 
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Adux

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We supported one faction that we believed benefitted Astan. Pakis supported a faction that they could influence to set their agenda and keep Astan weakened. However, the larger framework for the both the factions was islamic jihad.
That is a very simplistic way of looking at Johnee. Ahmed Shah Masood though a Islamist was far from any of these Talibunnies. Rest Assured on that. Whatever kind of man he was, He was our .man!
 
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johnee

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So they waged Islamic Jihad against one another? lol. Mere semantics my friend.
What is funny in it? Throughout history the jihadists have had factional fights. Infact, the fiercest fights are always between two groups with similar ideologies both claiming to represent the 'correct interpretation'.

Are there no factional fights in Taliban?

The Afghan government in power today is based around the faction we supported. There is a world of a difference between them and the Talibunnies.

Lets not equate ourselves with the Pakistanis now, and our friends with the Taliban!
Adux said:
That is a very simplistic way of looking at Johnee. Ahmed Shah Masood though a Islamist was far from any of these Talibunnies. Rest Assured on that. Whatever kind of bastard he was, He was our bastard
Sure, the immediate methods may differ from faction to faction and leader to leader. With a change of leader, a faction's methodologies may change. However, the frame work is Islamic Jihad.

I concede that Taliban is more radicalised with larger scope. But the root ideology is constant.
 

Tronic

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What is funny in it? Throughout history the jihadists have had factional fights. Infact, the fiercest fights are always between two groups with similar ideologies both claiming to represent the 'correct interpretation'.

Are there no factional fights in Taliban?

The Northern Alliance and Taliban were fighting because their ideologies were completely opposite, not because they claimed to represent the "correct interpretation".



Sure, the immediate methods may differ from faction to faction and leader to leader. With a change of leader, a faction's methodologies may change. However, the frame work is Islamic Jihad.

I concede that Taliban is more radicalised with larger scope. But the root ideology is constant.
Thats only your own stereotypes. Ground realities were world's apart in the North and South.

Maybe you need to do some readings. Some excellent books I read for an essay I did on Massoud for an elective leadership class I took in university:

Amazon.com: Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival (9781845113162): Amin Saikal: Books
Amazon.com: Massoud: An Intimate Portrait of the Legendary Afghan Leader: Marcela Grad: Books

Or you can start off with a more brief op-ed written by Amin Saikal (one of the co-authors of Modern Afghanistan: a history of struggle and survival) for the NYT: MEANWHILE - Remembering Massoud, a fighter for peace - NYTimes.com
 

Adux

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The Northern Alliance and Taliban were fighting because their ideologies were completely opposite, not because they claimed to represent the "correct interpretation".
Is that really the truth? Or is it because NA was Tajik, Uzbek etc and Taliban - Pathans?
 

Adux

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I think the thread is veering of course, this is an important thread, and it has to kept on topic
 

A chauhan

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Are you trying to say India funded Jihadists in Afghanistan?
How did you derive that meaning ? i just said they were Jihadis and they are.
 

Tronic

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Is that really the truth? Or is it because NA was Tajik, Uzbek etc and Taliban - Pathans?
The Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied themselves with the Northern Alliance, not the Taliban. Agha Sherzai, Abdul Rasul Sayaf, Abdul Haq, Haji Abdul Qadir, Abdul Rahim Ghafoorzai and countless other major Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied themselves with the Northern Alliance. Taliban is touted as a Pashtun movement only by the Pakistanis, but the fact is that majority of the original Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied with the Northern Alliance. The Talibunnies defeated all those Pashtun mujahideen commanders with the help of Pakistan army and took over their territory forcibly. Many of the Pashtun mujahideen were executed by the Taliban. It is a blatant lie peddled by the Pakistani establishment that the Pashtuns are represented by the Taliban. The fact is that the majority of Afghanistan was taken over by the Taliban by force. The majority Pashtuns were and still are, opposed to the Taliban.
 
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Daredevil

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[hl]All Pakistan and Afghan Jihad related posts moved into this thread to maintain the focus on the topic of the other thread. If you have a better suggestion for title of the thread, let me know[/hl]
 
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Adux

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The question is how are we going to exploit the internal violent fissures in Pakistan to our advantage. The most beautiful thing about this horrific violence is that, we have no part in this. It is their internal struggle. Can a safe haven out of current Pakistan be carved out for Shia's? Where and how the map would look like.



This will be unacceptable to our Afghan and Iranian allies. We will have to make the Baloch give up claims on current afghan territories and Iranian territories. Iran would like a buffer state between them and Pakistan.
 
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Adux

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The Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied themselves with the Northern Alliance, not the Taliban. Agha Sherzai, Abdul Rasul Sayaf, Abdul Haq, Haji Abdul Qadir, Abdul Rahim Ghafoorzai and countless other major Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied themselves with the Northern Alliance.
Time lines and events at that point of time is very important to form a proper view. They were allied because of the simple single objective : Soviet Union. The enemy of my enemy. Northern Alliance is a predominant minority led opposition, it is still not Afghan nationalist in the true sense. There is no such entity in afghanistan.


Taliban is touted as a Pashtun movement only by the Pakistanis, but the fact is that majority of the original Pashtun Mujahideen commanders allied with the Northern Alliance. The Talibunnies defeated all those Pashtun mujahideen commanders with the help of Pakistan army and took over their territory forcibly. Many of the Pashtun mujahideen were executed by the Taliban. It is a blatant lie peddled by the Pakistani establishment that the Pashtuns are represented by the Taliban. The fact is that the majority of Afghanistan was taken over by the Taliban by force. The majority Pashtuns were and still are, opposed to the Taliban
Since there is only one Pashtun faction that holds power, that is the Taliban. Therefore Taliban is the legitimate representatives of the pashtuns as long as they hold territory and power. whether we like it or not , is another matter.
 

Tronic

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Time lines and events at that point of time is very important to form a proper view. They were allied because of the simple single objective : Soviet Union.
I am talking post-Soviet Afghanistan. All those famous Pashtun commanders of the Soviet war, actually joined with the rest of the Mujahideen in their war against the Taliban and Pakistan. I am talking solely post-1992, not the Soviet war.

The enemy of my enemy. Northern Alliance is a predominant minority led opposition, it is still not Afghan nationalist in the true sense. There is no such entity in afghanistan.
Northern Alliance only came into being in 1996, after the Taliban, with Pakistani assistance had already forcibly taken over majority of the country. Pre-1996 (and post-'92) all the original Mujahideen Pashtun commanders were united with the rest of the Mujahideen in their war against the Taliban. The commanders I mentioned from the Soviet war; Agha Sherzai, Abdul Rasul Sayaf, Abdul Haq, Haji Abdul Qadir, Abdul Rahim Ghafoorzai and countless other major Pashtun Mujahideen commanders were all united under Burhanuddin Rabbani leading the Islamic State of Afghanistan, and fought against the Taliban. They were either taken over and killed by the Taliban, or they dispersed to the North. Unlike the Taliban, which had explicit Pakistan army support, these chaps were fighting with their backs to the wall, with little outside support.

Since there is only one Pashtun faction that holds power, that is the Taliban. Therefore Taliban is the legitimate representatives of the pashtuns as long as they hold territory and power. whether we like it or not , is another matter.
Errrmm noo, there were/are other Pashtun factions which opposed and fought the Taliban. Ittihad-i Islami being a major one. There were many others, Haji Abdul Qadir, Agha Sherzai, and heck there were even many initial Pashtun Taliban supporters who switched sides and started to support the Northern Alliance against them, Hamid Karzai being a famous one. Saying that Taliban represented all Pashtuns, is like saying the British Raj represented all Indians.
 
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Adux

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I am talking post-Soviet Afghanistan. All those famous Pashtun commanders of the Soviet war, actually joined with the rest of the Mujahideen in their war against the Taliban and Pakistan. I am talking solely post-1992, not the Soviet war.
Yes, it was always and will always was an unholy alliance


Northern Alliance only came into being in 1996, after the Taliban, with Pakistani assistance had already forcibly taken over majority of the country. Pre-1996 (and post-'92) all the original Mujahideen Pashtun commanders were united with the rest of the Mujahideen in their war against the Taliban. The commanders I mentioned from the Soviet war; Agha Sherzai, Abdul Rasul Sayaf, Abdul Haq, Haji Abdul Qadir, Abdul Rahim Ghafoorzai and countless other major Pashtun Mujahideen commanders were all united under Burhanuddin Rabbani leading the Islamic State of Afghanistan, and fought against the Taliban. They were either taken over and killed by the Taliban, or they dispersed to the North. Unlike the Taliban, which had explicit Pakistan army support, these chaps were fighting with their backs to the wall, with little outside support.
The point is today and post defeat of the pashtun compliment in Northern Alliance, by 1999 Northern Alliance was primarily Uzbeks, Hazaras and Tajiks, Taliban was mostly pashtun and held pashtun territories, they can only termed as the pashtun representatives before the advent of current government supported by USA.



Not really necessary, I am aware you are quite well versed in the matter than me.

Saying that Taliban represented all Pashtuns, is like saying the British Raj represented all Indians.
[/QUOTE]

Unlike the British, the Taliban arent foreigners in the pashtun lands.
 
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Tronic

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Yes, it was always and will always was an unholy alliance
Holy or unholy. It was an alliance with a common ideology and common interests. None of which matched with the Talibans'.

The point is today and post defeat of the pashtun compliment in Northern Alliance, by 1999 Northern Alliance was primarily Uzbeks, Hazaras and Tajiks, Taliban was mostly pashtun and held pashtun territories, they can only termed as the pashtun representatives before the advent of current government supported by USA.
As I said, the "Northern Alliance" is only a very recent construct, before 1996, they did not even exist. It was a pan-Afghan alliance against the Taliban. Had these chaps had foreign support, Taliban would never have been able to encroach Afghani lands.

Unlike the British, the Taliban arent foreigners in the pashtun lands.
Ask the Afghans that. Regardless of ethnicity, most Afghans see Taliban as an extension of Pakistan, nothing more. Moreover, the birthplace of Taliban is Pakistan. Taliban invaded from the East, they were not homegrown out of Afghanistan.
 
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Adux

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Tronic,

You say as if Taliban are not Afghans? Is Taliban - Arabs and Punjabi's of Pakistan ( I do concede that there are a few foreign fighters in Taliban). Taliban is pre dominately Pashtuns from both sides of the Durrand Line.
 

Tronic

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Tronic,

You say as if Taliban are not Afghans? Is Taliban - Arabs and Punjabi's of Pakistan ( I do concede that there are a few foreign fighters in Taliban). Taliban is pre dominately Pashtuns from both sides of the Durrand Line.
They are Pashtuns, but you have to differentiate; all Taliban may be Pashtuns, but are all Pashtuns Taliban? The British Raj was primarily made up of Indian foot soldiers, the Mughal armies were primarily made up of Rajputs, does that make those forces representatives of Indians and Rajputs respectively? I think not. Forget Afghan's Pashtuns, even Pakistan's Pashtuns have formed militias to fight the Taliban (despite provocations by the Pakistani army not to do so). You have merely been sold the Pakistani line on the Taliban.
 

Phenom

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Ask the Afghans that. Regardless of ethnicity, most Afghans see Taliban as an extension of Pakistan, nothing more. Moreover, the birthplace of Taliban is Pakistan. Taliban invaded from the East, they were not homegrown out of Afghanistan.
Are you sure about that, by most reports Taliban does enjoy a lot of support from the Pastun populace. No insurgency can be sustained without local support and looking at the growth of Taliban in the last 5 years are so, it does look like they a significant base among the public.
 

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