No SC tag for dalit Christians, Muslims?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by mayfair, Mar 17, 2011.

  1. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    No SC tag for dalit Christians, Muslims?
    Subodh Ghildiyal, TNN | Mar 17, 2011

    NEW DELHI: The Centre seems tilted against the inclusion of "dalit" Christians and Muslims in the Scheduled Castes list, arguing the need for evidence to show that converts continued to face discrimination of the same degree as before their exit from the Hindu fold.

    The Union law ministry has cited a Supreme Court judgment dismissing the claim that the constitutional provision limiting the SC tag to Hindus/Sikhs was discriminatory. The UPA is learnt to favour status quo on the back of law ministry's view coupled with the opinion of the National Commission for SCs — that the touchstone of being a dalit was if converts followed traditions and customs as before conversion and suffered the same social disabilities.

    The contentious issue is before the apex court and the Centre has marshalled opinion from its key arms to finalize its stand. A senior minister who was part of recent discussion in the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs, suggested caution, telling TOI: "The Constitution cannot be tinkered with in a casual manner."

    The issue is politically sensitive. Dalits, as articulated by NCSC, have opposed stretching the frontiers of SC list to outside Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist fold, arguing that the fresh addition would encroach on their share of 15% job quota.

    The law ministry has added a strong caveat for continuing with the existing regime by quoting a 1985 SC ruling that quashed a claim that the 'constitutional order 1950, para 3' discriminated against Christians.

    The Soosai vs UOI, 1985, ruling said the President of India had based his judgment on the definition of SCs on the material showing that Hindus/Sikhs "suffered from economic and social disabilities and cultural and educational backwardness so gross in character..."

    The apex court said, "to prove the said clause as discriminatory in nature, it must be shown that they (converts) suffer from comparable depth of social and economic disabilities and cultural backwardness and similar level of degradation within the Christian community..."

    The court noted that merely showing continuance of caste after conversion was not sufficient. "It is necessary to establish further that the disabilities and handicaps suffered from such caste membership in Hinduism continue in their oppressive severity in the new environment of a different religious community," it said.

    The law ministry told the Centre that the spirit of the apex court order had to be taken into account while deciding the issue. The NCSC said it had not conducted any study to establish the truth either way.
     
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  3. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    There is no "cast" in either Muslim or Christian religions right? Then why they want to keep the cast tag with them?
     
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I am afraid if the Dalit tag is applied to Christians and Muslims, it will be turning both the religions on their head, in a manner of speaking.

    It would go against the tenets of the religion that there is no discrimination on the status of a human being.

    It will also indicate that they are steeped in Hindu 'appendages' and that the religion that they follow are but appendages of the ancient religion from which most of them cut ties because of this very reason!
     
  5. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Sir, It will not be turning any of those 2 religions on its head. It is also against the tenets of Sikhism to distinguish between castes, but than, which community said no to reservations where it benefits them?

    I'm surprised though that the quotas, 'officially' (unofficially they are more widespread), are only given to Dalits of particular religions, and not the Muslim and Christian Dalits.

    That said, I'll also add that these religious lined quotas are amusing to hear of. I know that in most parts of India, the Muslim and Hindu communities are quite segregated from each other, but I wonder what happens to the communities in Punjab who are very inter-mixed. The Mirasi community being a big example of a heavily inter-mixed religio-ethnic group. You will find the various Mirasi tribes claiming descendance from Jatts (jathi mirasis), Rajputs (rana mirasis), Arabs (poosla and malat mirasis), Pathans (barral mirasis), Balochis (lori mirasis). Their religious mixture is just as unique where mixed marriages between these groups with differing religions are common place. You can have a Mirasi family where the grandmother may be muslim but grandfather and their kids sikhs, but than the grandkids go on to be raised muslims by their grandmother, or their own muslim mother; and vice versa. Heres an example, guess his religion ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r34j74VoNw

    And the Mirasis as far as I know, are classified as an OBC group, atleast in Punjab. So would this mean that half the family would be eligible for quotas, and the other half not? I highly doubt that is the case, therefore, even if that is the law, I do not think it is widely enforced. Atleast in Punjab that is the case. Elsewhere though, I'm not too sure, as the communities are more segregated therefore easier to ensure that only certain chaps get the quotas and others don't.
     
  6. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    They should either declare that caste is the result of the social structure and history of the subcontinent and dissociate it from the Hindu religion, or they should declare it a part of Hindu religion and stop giving caste-based reservations to converts. You can't have it both ways.

    The finding that nearly all Indian groups descend from mixtures of two ancestral populations applies to traditional "tribes" as well as "castes." Kumarasamy Thangaraj, a senior research scientist at CCMB in Hyderabad and a co-author said, "It is impossible to distinguish castes from tribes using the data. The genetics proves that they are not systematically different. This supports the view that castes grew directly out of tribal-like organizations during the formation of Indian society.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090923143333.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  7. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

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    They want to convert but still want caste benefits?
     
  8. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    Precisely. Even Mother Teresa campaigned for this sometime ago.
     
  9. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    I know a few Christians from Jharkhand and Orissa who keep Hindu name to get benefited from SC/ST quota. Some of them even got seats in IITs through this route.
     
  10. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Changing religion doesnt change their monetary conditions so why deny them the benifit of reservation just coz they converted?Isn't it another sort of discrimination.Instead Political class making it a vote issue they can do one thing is to unversalise the reservation across all religions based on lower income group/BPL population of the society.
     
  11. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    ajtr isn`t it they get converted because of discriminatory nature of hinduism(according to them) . if so then why claim benefits meant to foe sc/st. and most of Christians conervted get some form of benefits (to stay) within Christians fold by western churches so why claim benefits

    here is a famous quote i think u only provided
     
  12. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Asa far as my knowledge christians and muslims dont have castes like the HINDUS, so why give them SC or ST priority. If they want to get the priority os SC or ST they must be HINDUS only. The people who get converted should not be given any caste benifits, as they are no longer HINDUS. Good job by the GoI.
     
  13. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    It is necessary to out such frauds but it's difficult since officially they are Hindus (certificates and all). Lots of Christians have Indic names but frauds such as above pretend to be Hindus to claim the benefits.
     
  14. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Just for example If a tribal converts some other religion then it just the change of fold from Hinduism to Christianity.it does not change his way of life he still remain tribal.follows same occupation like hindu tribal and follow same discrimination from upper caste hindus. its like old wine in new bottle which just changes label but wine remains the same.And regarding the quote.... evangelic conversions of colonial era cant be compared to free will conversions in independent india.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  15. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Then why change the religion in the first place? Stay in the folds of Hinduism and enjoy special benefits.
     
  16. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Thats personal matter to them wat god they want to believe in an constitution provides them that right to follow any religion without any fear.And if u think reservations should only be hinduism centric then its the gravest discrimination based on the religion any state can commit on its subjects.
     
  17. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    But the caste based division is only in HINDUS and not in christians. This is not fair on the part of the person who gets converted. Either be a HINDU and get the priority of being an SC or ST or get converted to any other religion and forget and let go the advantages of SC and ST. The person cannot be both HINDU and christian at the same time. I think they are following the policy of "one hit and two mangos". GoI is not so foolish to accept this. I think they are trying something like the DUAL CITIZENSHIP policy of GoI, this can be stated or termed as "DUAL RELIGION BENIFITS". This is insane.
     
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  18. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

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    Caste based benefits are NOT linked to monetary status, but on the alleged discrimination based on caste. By converting, allegedly to eascape tyranny of caste systemn, converts are not subjected to it. At least not by upper caste Hindus. Any discrimination they face is by their fellow xians. Period.

    By the way, inter caste marriages are no no, what to talk of inter religion marriages. A Hindu of any caste will not marry with a non Hindu. Period.
     
  19. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    How can you say that they converted only to escape the caste system? You are saying that there is no other reason for people to convert? Also you seem to be aware that converting doesn't assure them that they will not be discriminated against. Therefore, there is no reason to neglect them of reservations.

    I oppose all quotas and reservations, but if they are going to enforce them, than might aswell enforce them properly for all Dalits, not just a selected group of Dalits.
     
  20. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Providing reservations only to the hindus is worst kind of religious discrimination india follows under the veil of providing caste based religion
     
  21. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    All bleeding-hearts are free to convert into Hinduism to enjoy the goodies of reservation if they wish. I am sure there are no apostasy laws in India, so there is nothing to fear about.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
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