Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

aghamarshana

Mitron......naacho
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Messages
2,031
Likes
10,867
Country flag
Who is he?? I doubt if he is having basic knowledge of physics. 5000km range of Brahmos. Could it possiblet for a super sonic cruise missile ?? and that too a Air launch version.
I think he wants to imply that the Range of Brahmos is to be increased to 800 kms,and when fitted to a Sukhoi 30 MKI which has a range of 3000 kms+ with mid flight refuelling,it could cover 5000 kms....I don't think we need to use it from such a range considering our adversaries are neighbours...We ain't striking North Korea,though...No sane nation would like to work on a cruise missile with range exceeding 2500kms,it'd be more like a kite on the loose with a thread cut...I think that's wat he meant.
 

tharun

Patriot
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,149
Likes
1,377
Country flag
Who is he?? I doubt if he is having basic knowledge of physics. 5000km range of Brahmos. Could it possiblet for a super sonic cruise missile ?? and that too a Air launch version.
Abey moron read the whole fucking tweet.
He meant brahmos missile on su-30mki.
 

vishnugupt

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
2,583
Likes
11,048
Country flag
Abey moron read the whole fucking tweet.
He meant brahmos missile on su-30mki.
Is he still in school?? What kind of logic it is?? Had Air defence missile not in existence then An Airbus 380a would have dropped bomb any where in the world.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
Nope, given that "new" Brahmos has 800-900 km range, IA gets to place TELs 250-300 inside the Indian territory and still cover most of Tibet, atleast the parts that matter.

So, you agree with me.


Only places outside of Brahmos' range are PLA & PLAAF bases outside Tibet like Chengdu for example. Air launched Brahmos (450 km+) and SCALP (560 km+) adds high levels flexibility. It also means that PLAAF will be hard-pressed to use them against India in a meaningful way because of the distances involved.

The problem is the air carried Brahmos will significantly reduce the manoeuvrability of the jet and make it a easy target.


Subjective opinion.


1) So far there is no evidence to suggest that India cannot afford a large scale strike against targets of considerable importance. Even at the production run of 1000 LACMs at $3 million each, you are looking at a very small part of budget over the period of 10-15 years.

It is not if you can “afford” but if its price is worth the result it brings. Well, tell that to Russians, even they didn’t plan to use their supersonic CM in massive scale (>1000) in their WW3 plan.


2) Brahmos is far more survivable than your random subsonic cruise missile which essentially translates to quality over quantity.

Well, American, Russian and Chinese all believe the quantity of subsonic CM is definitely overwhelming the so called “Quality” of your supersonic CM in massive scale war.
 

Adioz

शक्तिः दुर्दम्येच्छाशक्त्याः आगच्छति
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
1,419
Likes
2,819
The problem is the air carried Brahmos will significantly reduce the manoeuvrability of the jet and make it a easy target.
FFS, we are not sending such a hefty aircraft without appropriate escorts and a prior/parallel SEAD mission over your airspace. Don't talk as if IAF does not know what its doing.

Well, American, Russian and Chinese all believe the quantity of subsonic CM is definitely overwhelming the so called “Quality” of your supersonic CM in massive scale war
Alright. if you want to get burnt by a subsonic missile, wait for a couple of years. Nirbhay LACM coming to the borders near you shortly. We also have Pralay in the pipeline and Brahmos is available today itself. By 2020 you will be able to choose from a host of options that suit your palate, including Agni-1P.
 

HariPrasad-1

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Messages
9,573
Likes
21,018
Country flag
Cruise missiles can flew 100 meters above ground and they are stealthy..
If you have long range cruise missiles with 2500 km no one prefers ballistic missiles.
I don't know who is "WE".
The problem with cruise missile is that it will take 10 to 15 times time to reach the 2500 KM target. US fired tomahawk on Osama bin laden and escaped by the time missiles reached there.
 

sthf

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
5,327
Country flag
So, you agree with me.
Clearly not hence the "Nope" but you will take umbrage if I were to point out your less than optimal understanding of English language. Mobile TELs 300 km inside the well defended area with one of the densest forest cover on the planet coupled with very uneven terrain are safe enough. Feel free to prove otherwise.

The problem is the air carried Brahmos will significantly reduce the manoeuvrability of the jet and make it a easy target.
Easy target for whom? A strike package will be accompanied by escorts and standoff range of 450+ km will keep it out of SAM range.

It is not if you can “afford” but if its price is worth the result it brings. Well, tell that to Russians, even they didn’t plan to use their supersonic CM in massive scale (>1000) in their WW3 plan.
  • Russia hasn't deployed any ground launched cruise missiles, atleast officially.
  • Russian territory is multiple times that of India so the use of relatively short range supersonic cruise missiles makes less sense than long range subsonic.
  • Russia considers the only superpower on the planet as it's adversary, India doesn't.

Well, American, Russian and Chinese all believe the quantity of subsonic CM is definitely overwhelming the so called “Quality” of your supersonic CM in massive scale war.
US, Russia and China also use intermediate cartridges for their respective infantry units, something that didn't work out well for India so it intends to move away from that and go back to full power rounds.

Russia is putting faith in a hypersonic missile like Zircon, US on the other hand went with a stealthy subsonic alternative.
China is neither here nor there.

I don't see the point of this comparison.

Lumping together three very different militaries with very different doctrines and capabilities is plain stupid.
 

darshan978

Darth Vader
Regular Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
476
Likes
766
Country flag
GTRE successfully tested Small Turbo Fan Engine STFE at Leh for high altitude performance using a mobile test bed. The engine will power UAVs and Nirbhay CM. Looking forward to Nirbhay test with STFE.



any pics of disign??........................
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
Clearly not hence the "Nope" but you will take umbrage if I were to point out your less than optimal understanding of English language. Mobile TELs 300 km inside the well defended area with one of the densest forest cover on the planet coupled with very uneven terrain are safe enough. Feel free to prove otherwise.
Well, India is not kind of country famous for the intensive air-defence system. Instead, it has been relying upon its air-force dominance over sky. In the war scenario against China, well, will its air-force still be able to have absolute dominance in the sky, how quick she can archive it, are all big question masks.

PS: The densest forest and uneven terrain won’t provide much protection as they used to be under today’s surveillance technology: the vast launchers fleet is not something you can easily hide. The best way is getting them move as fast as you can. Unfortunately, the forest and terrain limit your maneuverability greatly.

Easy target for whom? A strike package will be accompanied by escorts and standoff range of 450+ km will keep it out of SAM range.
Flying with escorts doesn’t guarantee their safety especially when the number of your escort fighters is limited as you are using the fighters to carry the CM. Soviet and US strategic bombers all got escort, but it doesn’t stop them from spending billions of dollars to improve their bombers.

  • Russia hasn't deployed any ground launched cruise missiles, atleast officially.
  • Russian territory is multiple times that of India so the use of relatively short range supersonic cruise missiles makes less sense than long range subsonic.
  • Russia considers the only superpower on the planet as it's adversary, India doesn't.
No, we are talking about CM attacking land targets not ground launched CM. Russians had these supersonic CM since last 70s, they had enough sea and air platform to launch these supersonic CM from day one, but they never planned to use them on land target in their war plan. And no again, the major battlefield was Western Europe which is no bigger than India. I don’t think your logic works here.

US, Russia and China also use intermediate cartridges for their respective infantry units, something that didn't work out well for India so it intends to move away from that and go back to full power rounds.
No, India chooses supersonic CM for land target is not because the subsonic CM didn’t work out well for India, but India’s subsonic CM is still in its development stage and India’s short range ballistic missile still gets long way to go for tactic attacking.



Russia is putting faith in a hypersonic missile like Zircon, US on the other hand went with a stealthy subsonic alternative.
China is neither here nor there.
Well, here is news for you: Russia is also working on the stealthy subsonic CM while US is spending a lot on her hypersonic missile subject.
In terms of China, they never made their weapon developing plan publicly unless Yankees or Russians blow it.

I don't see the point of this comparison.
Lumping together three very different militaries with very different doctrines and capabilities is plain stupid.
Well, it is not stupid if you understand why three very different militaries with very different doctrines and capabilities come to the same conclusion on certain weapon in certain war scenario.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
The problem with cruise missile is that it will take 10 to 15 times time to reach the 2500 KM target. US fired tomahawk on Osama bin laden and escaped by the time missiles reached there.
No, US fired tomahawk on terrorist camp not Bin Laden. They used smart bomb or Hellfire missile for him. Long range subsonic CM is never suitable for mobile target.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,678
Likes
22,545
Country flag
No, US fired tomahawk on terrorist camp not Bin Laden. They used smart bomb or Hellfire missile for him. Long range subsonic CM is never suitable for mobile target.
Actually US did used Tomahawk on OBL long before 9/11. They tracked his satellite phone to target him. But by his good luck, the phone was with one of his deputy who was in another caravan going on for a relative or acquaintance funeral.
 

sthf

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
5,327
Country flag
PS: The densest forest and uneven terrain won’t provide much protection as they used to be under today’s surveillance technology: the vast launchers fleet is not something you can easily hide. The best way is getting them move as fast as you can. Unfortunately, the forest and terrain limit your maneuverability greatly.
Is that why China puts its nukes in the mountain tunnels? Did physics become irrelevant? Did line-of-sight propagation and communication become obsolete?

Flying with escorts doesn’t guarantee their safety especially when the number of your escort fighters is limited as you are using the fighters to carry the CM. Soviet and US strategic bombers all got escort, but it doesn’t stop them from spending billions of dollars to improve their bombers.
Nothing guarantees 100% safety. Since when did aerial warfare become foolproof?

Once again you brought up two of the most powerful militaries on the planet who are there to fight each other. Neither India nor China has strategic bombers.

Wake me up when either one gets them.

No, we are talking about CM attacking land targets not ground launched CM. Russians had these supersonic CM since last 70s, they had enough sea and air platform to launch these supersonic CM from day one, but they never planned to use them on land target in their war plan. And no again, the major battlefield was Western Europe which is no bigger than India. I don’t think your logic works here.
You gotta be kidding me. Did you just compare the expected war in Western Europe to Indian border wars? India intends to fight a war on its own borders. Russia expected to fight a war from their borders to English channel in Europe to throwing intercontinental punches on mainland USA's face.

Do these look like same things to you?

No, India chooses supersonic CM for land target is not because the subsonic CM didn’t work out well for India, but India’s subsonic CM is still in its development stage and India’s short range ballistic missile still gets long way to go for tactic attacking.
India will use both supersonic and subsonic CMs. Did you come to a different conclusion? India will use subsonic missiles not because they are awesome as fuck but because they will be far far cheaper than the supersonic ones. If you want to strike well defended area you use the system with higher survival rate i.e. Brahmos. To take take out bridges, bunkers etc. without much air cover you use subsonic missiles. Not that difficult to understand.

Well, here is news for you: Russia is also working on the stealthy subsonic CM while US is spending a lot on her hypersonic missile subject.
Sure, would you like to provide sources for each of these claims?

Because last I checked Putin came up with a nuclear powered cruise missile of unknown speed and there is not a single program in the US that is yet to reach even pre-production levels.

On the other hand both hypersonic Zircon and subsonic AGM-158C are about to enter production in Russia and US respectively.

In terms of China, they never made their weapon developing plan publicly unless Yankees or Russians blow it.
Offcourse, China strong.

This an open forum where everyone is entitled to a credible source. Don't have one, too bad.

Well, it is not stupid if you understand why three very different militaries with very different doctrines and capabilities come to the same conclusion on certain weapon in certain war scenario.
Not this bullshit again. Read this reply carefully and do not repeat the same again, EVER.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,000
Likes
2,302
Country flag
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/nirbhay-cruise-missile-development.4624/page-62



Is that why China puts its nukes in the mountain tunnels? Did physics become irrelevant? Did line-of-sight propagation and communication become obsolete?

Not become obsolete, but less effective with the advance of modern surveillance tech. For the countries like India, China, the enemy’s action within 200km behind the front is transparent to them.

More importantly, these CM regiments are being deployed within 200km to the border, which means all their operations from camp maintenance, daily training and drills are always under the watch of Chinese. After years of observation, their technical limitation, operating model and principles become so familiar to the enemy that almost move can be predicated by enemy: what are the potential targets, where are the best attacking position, which several routes are most likely chosen for move, how fast can the regiment move, etc, etc. All these knowledge will greatly narrow down the search area.




Nothing guarantees 100% safety. Since when did aerial warfare become foolproof?

Once again you brought up two of the most powerful militaries on the planet who are there to fight each other. Neither India nor China has strategic bombers.

Wake me up when either one gets them.

Funny, one hand, you admit that India can’t match the air force of USA and USSR, on the other hand, you are planning to do something they didn’t dare to do: converting the fighters to air dominance task to land attacking.


Su-30 is the back bone of India’s fighter fleet. Within a long period after war begins, both sides will fight for the air dominance considering the quantity and quality of both air forces. Instead of putting these Su-30 to kill Chinese birds, you send them to be chased by Chinese birds. I don’t know how good protection the India escort could be, but I do know 1 Su30 with Brahmos +1 Su30 with R77 are not as good as 2 Su30 both have R77.





You gotta be kidding me. Did you just compare the expected war in Western Europe to Indian border wars? India intends to fight a war on its own borders. Russia expected to fight a war from their borders to English channel in Europe to throwing intercontinental punches on mainland USA's face.

You are talking as if Russians didn’t need to attack those land targets within western German, which only a few hundred kilometres away from the eastern German border. Instead of deploying their supersonic cruise missile, they developed SSFor these target, they prepared plenty of short range ballistic missile such as SS-12 and then SS-23 SRBMs.


Does this tell you something?




India will use both supersonic and subsonic CMs. Did you come to a different conclusion? India will use subsonic missiles not because they are awesome as fuck but because they will be far far cheaper than the supersonic ones. If you want to strike well defended area you use the system with higher survival rate i.e. Brahmos. To take take out bridges, bunkers etc. without much air cover you use subsonic missiles. Not that difficult to understand.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence to suggest that supersonic cm has a higher survival rate comparing to subsonic cm in the land unless you can provide that Brahmos can perform valley-hugging movement.


Sure, would you like to provide sources for each of these claims?


Because last I checked Putin came up with a nuclear powered cruise missile of unknown speed and there is not a single program in the US that is yet to reach even pre-production levels.


On the other hand both hypersonic Zircon and subsonic AGM-158C are about to enter production in Russia and US respectively.

Well, Russians also claim their KH-101/102 is their answer to JASSM, which is operational already in 2012.


On the other side, Americans’ hypersonic cm program can trace back to 2006 X 51 test. Even though, it was terminated publicly, but they have resumed the research again.


Which weapons get into production first depends on their industrial and technological strength, not necessarily the tactic value in the battle.



Off course, China strong.

Do you have any understanding problem?


This an open forum where everyone is entitled to a credible source. Don't have one, too bad.

When a country spent so much money on their stealth jet and hypersonic plane, it is very wired that she doesn’t have similar programs in missile area.


But, you can believe whatever suits you.


Not this bullshit again. Read this reply carefully and do not repeat the same again, EVER.

Well, since you have repeat your bullshit, I have to try to crack your head to make you ask yourselves why India is the only one using this weapon against land target. Unfortunately, your ego just blind your eyes.
 

sthf

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
2,271
Likes
5,327
Country flag
Not become obsolete, but less effective with the advance of modern surveillance tech.
This is what you said.

The densest forest and uneven terrain won’t provide much protection as they used to be under today’s surveillance technology:
So again less effective in comparison to what? Deserts, plains, marshes, beaches?

For the countries like India, China, the enemy’s action within 200km behind the front is transparent to them.
Source?

More importantly, these CM regiments are being deployed within 200km to the border, which means all their operations from camp maintenance, daily training and drills are always under the watch of Chinese. After years of observation, their technical limitation, operating model and principles become so familiar to the enemy that almost move can be predicated by enemy: what are the potential targets, where are the best attacking position, which several routes are most likely chosen for move, how fast can the regiment move, etc, etc. All these knowledge will greatly narrow down the search area.
Source?

Funny, one hand, you admit that India can’t match the air force of USA and USSR, on the other hand, you are planning to do something they didn’t dare to do: converting the fighters to air dominance task to land attacking.
Read again genius. China is in the same boat. Unless there is a fleet of Chinese strategic bombers flying around. Difference is that IAF will strike, how it wants, when it wants, using a huge supersonic missile on a highly capable platform using standoff distances. PLAAF will have to use subsonic missiles from its bomber which was designed in 1950s in Russia.

Su-30 is the back bone of India’s fighter fleet. Within a long period after war begins, both sides will fight for the air dominance considering the quantity and quality of both air forces. Instead of putting these Su-30 to kill Chinese birds, you send them to be chased by Chinese birds. I don’t know how good protection the India escort could be, but I do know 1 Su30 with Brahmos +1 Su30 with R77 are not as good as 2 Su30 both have R77.
You are not particluarly bright are you? Su-30MKI are a multirole fighters. Now google what multirole means. Jaguars and Mig-21s are the only single role platform left in IAF.

Unlike PLAAF which is heavily dependent on the single role platforms, some of which are clearly outdated, IAF has moved on.

MKI are the mainstay of IAF and can fulfill most of the roles demanded by IAF. This includes, carrying a Brahmos along with R-77s.

I love how you are grasping at straws. First you said, MKIs flying with Brahmos will be "easy target" for PLAAF. I provided a rebuttal. Then, you pulled another thing out of your rear and claimed that escorts doesn't "guarantee" safety without explaining the "guarantee" and "safety" factors which exists in your imagination. Now you are bitching and moaning about numbers and I can still mop the floor with you.

So make up your damn mind. Is it;

1) Easy target for PLAAF?
2) Escorts are not a guarantee?
3) Numbers are not enough?

And do these factors unilaterally affect India but not China. Go ahead, I'll wait.

You are talking as if Russians didn’t need to attack those land targets within western German, which only a few hundred kilometres away from the eastern German border. Instead of deploying their supersonic cruise missile, they developed SSFor these target, they prepared plenty of short range ballistic missile such as SS-12 and then SS-23 SRBMs.
1) Soviets did not field a land based cruise missile of similar range as Brahmos.

2) India too has deployed theater ballistic missiles like Prithvi.

Now argue on these two points. Try again.

Does this tell you something?
That you are clueless as fuck.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence to suggest that supersonic cm has a higher survival rate comparing to subsonic cm in the land unless you can provide that Brahmos can perform valley-hugging movement.
Survivability of Brahmos depends on its speed, low level flying and can do near vertical dives same as every other subsonic missile.

Valley hugging in the Himalayas. Do the mighty Chinese have that techonology? Would you like to share an example?

Well, Russians also claim their KH-101/102 is their answer to JASSM, which is operational already in 2012.
Trouble reading? I gave you two examples of US & Russia coming up with two very distinct philosophy of Anti ship missiles, you again bullshited your way through by muddying the waters.

Is Kh101 an AshM?

This is what you wrote;
Well, here is news for you: Russia is also working on the stealthy subsonic CM while US is spending a lot on her hypersonic missile subject.
Where are the examples for the question I asked? Where is the American hypersonic AshM? Where is the Russian stealth AshM?

Either provide the source or shut the fuck up.

On the other side, Americans’ hypersonic cm program can trace back to 2006 X 51 test.
Is this an AshM? I specifically asked for AshM.

Even though, it was terminated publicly, but they have resumed the research again.
Source?

Which weapons get into production first depends on their industrial and technological strength, not necessarily the tactic value in the battle.
It shows the priorities different militaries put on very different weapon systems. Something that clearly escapes you.

When a country spent so much money on their stealth jet and hypersonic plane, it is very wired that she doesn’t have similar programs in missile area.


But, you can believe whatever suits you.
Where is the source genius? Your hit and run tactics won't work on me.

Either provide the source or shut the fuck up.

Well, since you have repeat your bullshit, I have to try to crack your head to make you ask yourselves why India is the only one using this weapon against land target. Unfortunately, your ego just blind your eyes.
This is not the first time you tried to pull the wool in front of the reader's eyes. This is also not the first time, you made an asinine claim without providing sources.

You can muddy the waters all you want, I'll keep calling you on your bullshit.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top