New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Ray

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It's time to respond China in same language and release a new map where some parts of China included in India. Some parts mean disputed parts.
Correct.

And show Tibet, Xinjiang, Guanxi and Inner Mongolia as independent.

Guanxi is a part of the land of the Baiyue. They are more akin to Vietnam and was bulldozed into China in the Qing dynasty time, if I am not mistaken.
 
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Neo

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Please read how you are sadly mistaken that Kashmiris support you.

1965 and 1971 the Kashmiris alerted the Indian Army, when you tried infiltration posing as Kashmiris.

The first time it was tribals with Pak Army who came and attacked and were thrown out and Pakistan was saved by the idealist Nehru.

I am glad you quote the UN as the authority. Do check how you flout the resolution on Kashmir where you have to vacate Kashmir for a plebiscite and you haven't.

I am sure you haven't lost East Pakistan in your textbooks too!

Original post stated that we lost 1948 war. Please elaborate how it was lost even after we took one third of the territory.

UN resolution applies to both, whereas we had to vacate it India too had to bring down the number of
occupying force to mininum level which India refused to do. It takes too to tango and at that time your government knew she would loose Kashmir the moment plebs were allowed. She bought time making thousands of excuses.
 

Ray

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Original post stated that we lost 1948 war. Please elaborate how it was lost even after we took one third of the territory.

UN resolution applies to both, whereas we had to vacate it India too had to bring down the number of
occupying force to mininum level which India refused to do. It takes too to tango and at that time your government knew she would loose Kashmir the moment plebs were allowed. She bought time making thousands of excuses.
You wanted all, but Nehru gave you one third.

As far as the UN resolution goes:

Part I - the ceasefire.

Part II - provided for a truce agreement where Pakistan was to accept an unconditional obligation to withdraw its troops from the State of J&K, as well as its tribesmen and Pakistani nationals, the Commission at the same time, recognising the necessity to keep enough Indian forces in the State, to ensure law and order and also the defence of the State.

Part III - provided that after Part I was carried out and the truce agreement was carried out as per Part II, the parties and the Commission would consider the ways and means to ascertain the will of the people.

Pakistan has renegaded on Part II and so Part III remains in a limbo.

Further:

How Azad is `Jammu and Kashmir'

By Sultan Shaheen


If you want to study the situation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and cannot go to even the minuscule part of this region designated as `Jammu and Kashmir', the best place to go to is England. Bradford, Birmingham, Nottingham, Luton, Slough and Southall are perhaps even better sources of information about the POK than Muzaffarabad, Mirpur, Bagh Rawalakot and Kotli. For the Kashmiris living in Britain breathe free air that it not much available in the so-called Jammu and Kashmir. Even if you so much as apply for a job you have to sign an affidavit saying you believe in the ideology of "Kashmir banega Pakistan" (Kashmir will become Pakistan).
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight990902.html
Some Azadi right?
 
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Ray

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Elections in Pakistani colony - Azad Kashmir
Elections in Pakistani colony - Azad Kashmir
Dr Shabir Choudhry 28 June 2011

In a parliamentary form of government a party that gets majority forms the next government; and the party leader becomes a Prime Minister. This happens in every democratic and civilised country. However, rules in a Pakistani occupied territory known as Azad Kashmir (independent Kashmir) are different.

PPP emerged as the winner in the elections. It was expected, as always is the case, a ruling party in Islamabad gets the desired results in Azad Kashmir to suits its needs. Barrister Sultan Mehmood, former Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir and a leader of the PPP was interviewed by a Pakistani TV. He happily claimed to have got the majority to form the government. The TV journalist asked him who is going to be the Prime Minister. Barrister Sultan Mehmood with a fake smile on his face said: Zardari Sahib will decide who is going to be the Prime Minister' (of Azad Kashmir).

People who know how the system works and how posts are awarded, especially the post of the Prime Minister, claim that the man with a big purse will be the Prime Minister. Choudhry Abdul Majid is the President of PPP Azad Kashmir; and should have been asked to form the government. However, that won't happen, as he is not that rich. Choudhry Yasin and Barrister Sultan Majid are strong candidates for the post of Prime Minister; and insiders claim that Barrister Sultan Mehmood will be the next Prime Minister.

That sums up the level of azadi or independence this territory and its leaders have. Who is Zardari? He is a man accused of being ten per cent because of many corruption scandals, Surrey Palace, Swiss accounts etc. He has imposed a dictatorship in his own party and has virtually ruined it. Many even accuse this man with murder of his wife as well.

Oh yes, he is also a President of Islamic Republic of Pakistan – perhaps, ideal candidate for the post according to political standards of Pakistan. As far as I am concerned, Pakistanis can have a Mafia Don as their President, but what right has he got to impose his will on people of Azad Kashmir.

How unfortunate that in this territory – Azad Kashmir who will be our Assembly Member is decided by 'Masters' in Islamabad. These 'Masters' are in the form of Asif Ali Zardari, Nawaz Sharif, and other heads of Pakistani parties which dominate the politics of this unfortunate territory. Apart from that, Minister Kashmir Affairs, top four Pakistani officials - Chief Secretary, IG Police, Finance Secretary and Accountant General run and control Azad Kashmir. The final say, as always, is with the secret agencies and Pakistani army General, known as GOC Murree (General Commanding Officer based in Murree).

As if these checks and restrictions were not enough imperialists in Islamabad ensured that genuine voice of people does not emerge strongly to endanger their interests, so they have inserted a clause in Act 74 (under which this territory is run and controlled) that those who do not sign allegiance to Pakistan could not contest any elections or qualify for a public post.

Furthermore, all major decisions, including who will get promotions and what projects should be initiated are taken in meetings of Kashmir Council, which is Chaired by Prime Minister of Pakistan and controlled by the Pakistanis who have numerical majority there as well.

After this brief introduction it is pertinent to discuss the current elections in this independent Kashmir, which does not have any independence apart from the name. It is called Azad Kashmir to fool people of Jammu and Kashmir. It is unfortunate that many people of Azad Kashmir want to live in this fantasy world that they are azad or independent, as this false sense of being azad does not require any action or struggle on their part. Whereas, if they accept that they are not azad then obligation would be to do something about it; and the structure Pakistan has woven around them in the past 63 years is so strong that they cannot get rid off it.

In the present elections, all candidates of Pakistani parties (mainly PPP, N League, MQM, Jamat e Islami) contesting elections in Azad Kashmir were chosen by heads of these Pakistani parties; and the Azad Kashmiri leadership had no role in that – what a democracy.

In my considered view and in view of many other experts, the PPP would get 16-17 seats, N League 14-15 seats and Muslim League 8-9 seats; that no party gets a majority and Pakistani establishment can manoeuvre things as suits them. One day before the elections my friend in Pakistan who has some contacts with those who call shots in matters of Azad Kashmir said: it has been decided that PPP will get 20 -21 seats, N League 8-9 and Muslim Conference get 5-6 seats.

When the election results were out, my prediction was wrong and my friend proved to be more accurate. Now there are allegations that the elections were rigged. But which elections of Azad Kashmir were not rigged? It is interesting that allegations of rigging are coming from leaders of N League and Sardar Atiq Khan who was Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir at the time of elections.

In one TV interview Sardar Atiq Khan said these are the worst elections of Azad Kashmir with rigging, violence and murders (3 deaths and 20 injured, ballot boxes stolen in some places and returning officer kidnapped). He said leaders from Pakistan (PPP and N League leaders) who came to campaign in Azad Kashmir openly violated elections rules. But was he not the man in charge of so called Azad Kashmir? If he knows he is only a puppet and there are others who call the shots then why not acknowledge that.

Let us look how elections are managed in Azad Kashmir. The Assembly has total of 49 seats. Elections are held on 41 seats, 29 seats in Azad Kashmir with 12 seats spread over in Pakistan and reserved for Kashmir migrants. These 12 seats are always in hands of those who control Azad Kashmir and 'reward' to the parties of their choice. 5 seats are reserved for women and are shared according to party strength in the Assembly – generally 3 goes to the party with majority of seats. 1 seat for Overseas Kashmiris, sold to the highest bidder, 1 seat for technocrats and 1 seat for religious scholars.

Actual contest takes place on 29 seats in Azad Kashmir. There are many factors which determine the outcome of the elections. By and large, tribal loyalties are still strong and ideology of any kind has very little role in Azad Kashmiri elections. Money, role of the establishment and manpower with influence and guns play an important role in the outcome of elections.

During the election campaign votes are literally bought, sometimes with cash and sometimes with offer of development projects. For example, a village which has no access to a main road and people have to walk with their luggage and other belongings for transport could be persuaded to vote for a particular candidate in return x amount is paid for the construction of the road. Similarly, people vote for a candidate when they get money – during the campaign - to construct pavements or dig wells or other schemes which governments are supposed to do anyway.

My contacts tell me that Benazir Bhutto Income Scheme money was spent generously to buy votes in Azad Kashmir. It is claimed that money which was sent for the earthquake victims of Azad Kashmir was diverted and squandered by people in high positions. This money and some other funds, people claim, are now used to buy votes under the banner of BBIS.

My contacts further tell me that one day before the elections, in targeted seats PPP workers were offering up to 5000 rupees per vote. Some were even providing big sacks of flour and sugar (which is in short supply). In a country where 5000 rupees is a monthly wage for those lucky enough to be employed, it is huge income for a day for a family with 5-6 votes.

This is state of affairs in Azad Kashmir; and this is how politics works in this part of the world. Despite the above situation people in Pakistan and in some parts of Jammu and Kashmir like to call this territory Azad or independent Kashmir – a model state which the Pakistani elite think should encourage the remaining parts of Jammu and Kashmir to join it; and ultimately merge with Islamic Republic of Pakistan – a country ruled by likes of Zardari.

Do they think we are stupid? No Sirs, we don't want to become a part of this rotten society which is corrupt to the core, which is intolerant, which breeds extremism and violence, which is at a war with itself and which has very bleak future.

Writer is Head Diplomatic Committee of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.Email:[email protected]
View my blog and web: Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog
www.k4kashmir.com
Posted by Dr Shabir Choudhry at 12:29
Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: Elections in Pakistani colony - Azad Kashmir
 

Ray

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@Neo

An' sInz k>lay kh>da:yas hava:iI

And never forget the Kashmir saying

Anim s>y, vAvIm s>y, iAjim s>y pa:nIsIy
 
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angeldude13

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Original post stated that we lost 1948 war. Please elaborate how it was lost even after we took one third of the territory.

UN resolution applies to both, whereas we had to vacate it India too had to bring down the number of
occupying force to mininum level which India refused to do. It takes too to tango and at that time your government knew she would loose Kashmir the moment plebs were allowed. She bought time making thousands of excuses.
Your argument is stupid.Actually your whole post is a propaganda that has been shoved down into the throats of a common pakistani.

You won 1/3 of kashmir from the Maharaja of kashmir and not from the Indian army.
PA was at srinagar when Indian army intervened in the conflict b/w Maharaja and pakistan.
Do we see srinagar being ruled by the Pakis.
So what does that supposed to mean.
If you can't Understand then read my signature :lol:
UN resolution has been explained by Ray in post number 23.................
 

Compersion

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I believe it is a PR exercise (successful) to downplay PRC importance and leadership in Asia. There is the standard maintenance of established positions but these are established for many years already. I believe this sudden news is linked to (unilateral) PRC presumption by PRC people and the PRC leadership "closeness" to Modi that needs to be de-linked and is being done by such. The GOI is telling PRC that it cannot accept infantile diplomacy where one thinks it is superior in the name of peace and development over the other and use assumed closeness with leader(s) when it has issues and positions that are to the contrary among one another and in the region and nearby parameters.

- Wang Yi visit
- Ansari Visit
- PRC asking India to join in a PRC-Pakistan-India related security arrangement.

If PRC wants to take and be shown to be the (only) leader in Asia and be more superior to India - get rid of Pakistan. India and PRC relations are not juvenile.

Hamid Ansari raises China-Pakistan PoK rail link issue with Beijing - The Times of India

Singh said the Chinese raised their concerns about India but refused to go into details. "I don't want to go into issues of detail. This was a privileged discussion," she said.
"Premier Li suggested India should identify products that would be of interest to Chinese buyers in order to resolve the problem of trade deficit between the two countries," Singh said.
The most important takeaway(s).
 
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Virendra

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Lets get back to the topic please.
 

Compersion

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Original post stated that we lost 1948 war. Please elaborate how it was lost even after we took one third of the territory.

UN resolution applies to both, whereas we had to vacate it India too had to bring down the number of
occupying force to mininum level which India refused to do. It takes too to tango and at that time your government knew she would loose Kashmir the moment plebs were allowed. She bought time making thousands of excuses.
(edit later ** please accept my apologies if this deserves to be put on another thread)

I respect you are trying to articulate and defend the position of Pakistan and its status in its part of Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Another item is that this issue needs to be kept unresolved and disturbed to justify the huge defense budgets and military expenditure and focus in both countries. This is especially the case in Pakistan - since India also faces other threats and has a bigger more important role to play in the region and globe. Whereas Pakistan is only anti-india that can be established by its range of missiles that dare not enter Israeli airspace parameters (officially).

I always wanted to ask the following:

What is Pakistan doing in POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir). What is the official position.

Is POK part of Pakistan. Is it independent. Are people in POK pakistanis, kashmir people, shia kashmir people, non-pakistani people - what does their Passport say. Please link it to what Pakistan says on Jammu and Kashmir and especially the areas administered by India. Please give the official position.

You can link it to the UN resolutions (that are invalid due to Shimla agreement). Link it to Shimla Agreement. Link it to terrorism and freedom fighters. Link it to anything in International law.

Next explain why Pakistan gave away land to PRC that is part of Jammu and Kashmir. Please apply and link to the same principle(s) above (the official position).

And after that link it to the most wonderful aspect about this where people in Pakistan occupied Kashmir are majority Shia. please explain how they fit into the official position and (land give-away to PRC) for example have they voted to be part of Pakistan? - will that suffice today. did they have a choice.

The answer: Pakistan does not have a (reasonable) position on Jammu and Kashmir. It is anti-india position only.

I also believe the (boldness of) Pakistan Anti-India Kashmir policy stems from 1962 and PRC getting closer to the borders of both Pakistan and India and Pakistan reconciling the opportunity. This also led to Yaya Khan gifting PRC the American and NATO manufacturing relationship to PRC (unrewarded) as well as AQ Khan nuclear skills and the eventual status of Pakistan becoming more like North Korea.

A good question to ask is if you take PRC away from Pakistan and the region and allow India to trade more with Pakistan on the same terms of PRC will that make the region more peaceful and will development increase. I believe yes. Plus its a hedge that Pakistan needs to take advantage off to get better terms with PRC and remind them the importance of Pakistan. Economic competition practises between India and PRC in Pakistan will be good for Pakistan and also will be a surprise to Pakistan.

This will also be a step to making Pakistan have a (reasonable) position on Jammu and Kashmir especially their 1/3 part because they need to establish inter-link with India before it loose the interpretation position(s) that they are doing at this moment extraordinarily.
 
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bose

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Annexed and recognised as integral part of China by UN.
UN is not true representative of the world...

UN can not decide what TIBET wants it up to TIBETANS to decide their future...

Lost it?? Last time I checked we took one third of Kashmir with local support. We only lost it in Indian textbooks. :laugh:
You lost the day you attacked Kashmir [check out how the attackers from Pakistan were busy raping and looting Kashmiris] who rejected the Two Nation Theory... Thanks to Nehru's ill decision to halt military advance, else the rest would have gone too from you...

Read some history specially the 1965 war and how the Kashmir's people helped Indian Army to identify the infiltrators then...How the Indian Army turned the tables and at the gates of Lahore...
 

bose

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What matters the most to whom? To 99% of Chinese people, what matters is what they want.
TIBET for TIBETANS and not for Hans...

The destiny of a region is determined by the forces which can act upon it. The people who live there are merely one such force, and in an age of increasingly centralized military, political, and economic power structures, they are an increasingly weak force. Beijing has far greater forces arrayed in Tibet than a few yak herders and monks.

Likewise, no matter how hard ETIM tries in Xinjiang, the forces they have are but a little finger to the iron fist of China.

What sort of iron fist? China has just executed a dozen of ETIM's operatives and imprisoned 300 more with barely four weeks of counterattacks, obliterating the core of their Xinjiang network - and that's simply the stuff that gets reported. Remember those 13 guys that died attacking a police station? Chinese state security had the ringleader on a tape, talking about blowing things up as early as Summer of 2008. Then, his group was infiltrated. When they decided to get serious this past month, Chinese intelligence fed them dud explosives and watched them make a fool of themselves with a car bomb that didn't go off. Then those poor idiots died attacking what they thought were unarmed police officers at the station with homemade guns, not knowing half the police had been replaced with special forces wielding machine pistols, shotguns, and grenades. Nobody in Xinjiang farts without a Chinese database tracking it, and anyone in Xinjiang thinking about rebellion eventually finds himself dead and forgotten.
The Germans could not hold on to the Russian territory... nor the Russians in Asia and Eastern Europe, nor the British in Asia and Africa... nor Japan in Asia... nor Americans in Vietnam....

nor China will be in TIBET and XINJIANG ... force can not put down the urge to live their life of their own... it never happened in history... else USSR would not have dis integrated like pack of cards...
.
XINJIANG is the nemesis for China's occupational forces... the push back what you see in East Turkestan or XINJIANG will spread for other parts of China for sure... suicide attacks against the Chinese military targets and full support to freedom movement in TIBET and XINJIANG ...

China still struggling to integrate TIBET and XINJIANG even after senseless killings of innocents still is the testimony of struggle against the Chinese tyranny..
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

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what if china tries to pull off another 62?
will pakistan too take advantage of the situation and try get kashmir?
if pak doesnt interfere will it be then 1v1 sino - india or a world war?
in world war situation who will take side of india as its always been non alligned.
 

bose

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what if china tries to pull off another 62?
will pakistan too take advantage of the situation and try get kashmir?
if pak doesnt interfere will it be then 1v1 sino - india or a world war?
in world war situation who will take side of india as its always been non alligned.
Cho En Lai did proposed to Pakistan in 1963 for a combined attack on India... Pakistan dithered then but tried to make it up in 1965 by then India recovered well and gave a bloody noise...

India need to continue to have a very aggressive patrolling in the LAC with China... couple of days back Indian Army had a face off with Chinese PLA...Let Chinese know Indian army is there for them...
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

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well i just hope india doesnt give in to china pressure and loose out ladakh and AP without giving a fight. :scared2:

modi should make it v clear that any future incursions and provocations would be constituted as act of war and a fitting reply be given.
 

rock127

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Pre-partition maps of British India donot show Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

Aksai Chin was lost in war initiated by India. Why cry over spoilt milk?
Pre-partition maps of British showed "Pakistan" as part of India.There was no Pakistan at all. :lol:

Arunachal is a part of India, same as Kashmir,Siachin.

You are crying profusly over Kashmir and Siachin and LOST Bangladesh over it.

Chinese are claiming Arunachal but they would not get it other than making stupid and childish maps.
 

rock127

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What matters the most to whom? To 99% of Chinese people, what matters is what they want.

Beijing has far greater forces arrayed in Tibet than a few yak herders and monks.
So you clearly says FORCE is the base to claim anything.

Same way we hold what we hold, now go and cry a river and make stupid maps and set up tents and then run away.

You are degrading Tibet people as simply herders and monks and Han Chinese as super advanced 1st world race? :lol:
 

Neo

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TIBET for TIBETANS and not for Hans...



The Germans could not hold on to the Russian territory... nor the Russians in Asia and Eastern Europe, nor the British in Asia and Africa... nor Japan in Asia... nor Americans in Vietnam....

nor China will be in TIBET and XINJIANG ... force can not put down the urge to live their life of their own... it never happened in history... else USSR would not have dis integrated like pack of cards...
.
XINJIANG is the nemesis for China's occupational forces... the push back what you see in East Turkestan or XINJIANG will spread for other parts of China for sure... suicide attacks against the Chinese military targets and full support to freedom movement in TIBET and XINJIANG ...

China still struggling to integrate TIBET and XINJIANG even after senseless killings of innocents still is the testimony of struggle against the Chinese tyranny..
Add Indian Occupied Kashmir to the list...
 

Ray

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Add Indian Occupied Kashmir to the list...
Actually since you are not conversant with the Indian Independence Act of the British Parliament you write so.

An Instrument of Accession was the valid document to join India or Pakistan.
J&K signed the Instrument of Accession in favour of India.

There it is Pakistan which is the occupier.

Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is what is appropriate a term.
 

rock127

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Add Indian Occupied Kashmir to the list...
Pakistan is actually TOIL ie. "Traitors Occupied Indian Land".We gave you whole land in the name of "peace" but you dont want peace and want to be broken into peaces.We did it in 71 and more to follow.

"Pakistan" doesn't belong to you, you belong to Arabian Land but they don't want you. :lol:
 

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